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FWIW this is the talk that got them (Ben Nagy and The Grugq) thrown out of Kiwicon (http://kiwicon.org/ http://kiwicon.org/) for being transphobic, sexist and

FWIW this is the talk that got them (Ben Nagy and The Grugq) thrown out of Kiwicon (http://kiwicon.org/ http://kiwicon.org/) for being transphobic, sexist and otherwise disrespectful to women and trans people. See http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Kiwicon_2014_expulsion http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Kiwicon_2014_expulsion IMO it was justified, but guess you had to be there.

gear54rus 12y ago
What I find interesting is that no matter how hard I google, I can't find this joke anywhere. Heard this story before and to this day curiosity is killing me.
- emhart 12y ago
  The ad-lib appears to be included in the provided PDF.
  - gear54rus 12y ago
    Oh so that's the one, and that's this same presentation... Interesting. I for one, find the kicking out hardly justified.
  - scintill76 12y ago
    Hmm, "ad-lib" -- given that slide, what did they plan to say? Anyway, it's interesting to me that the pics of mostly-naked men and ASCII Goatse hardly get mentioned, overshadowed by a verbal remark. Maybe the con has changed its policy in response, but did they preview the slide deck?
    - steakejjs 12y ago
      I don't know of any security conferences that preview slides. original research is presented regularly which means your hard work might leak by conference organizers who can't keep their mouths shut. Alsp, many speakers are working on their slides and talk minutes before going on. These talks get finished notoriously late
    - makomk 12y ago
      Apparently they got in trouble for the ASCII Goatse too.
      - scintill76 12y ago
        Yeah, if "got in trouble" == "it was mentioned in a few tweets", but mostly it seems focused on the trans remark. They quite literally assault the eyes of everyone in the room, and it only gets passing mention compared to a non-targeted[0], verbal insult to a certain class of people. Should the severity of an offense really be proportional to the oppression its victims are suffering? [0] I mean they didn't point to a trans person in the room and say, "You're sticking out!"
  - MichaelGG 12y ago
    And is pretty much a statement of fact. "Sticking out like a white guy in a Mayan village" would probably have been non notable so I don't follow how it's offensive by switching the subjects.
    - ryanlol 12y ago
      Mentioning in minorities in contexts that aren't explicitly positive is pretty much a holocaust-tier offense.
      - mfukar 12y ago
        Well, it isn't, but p.c. proponents certainly seem to make it seem that way. :-)
- lostsock 12y ago
  It's on page 30 of the PDF that the HN submission links to.
  - mirimir 12y ago
    More cogent is the comment on page 17: "I wanted to remind people about Eldo Kim here ( the Harvard bomb threat hoax ). He had pretty good Concealment ( was using Tor ) but had no cover to explain WHY he was using Tor at that time, and then gave it up under questioning."
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
- GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago
  Or maybe he's just a jerk who can't learn from experience?
woah 12y ago
"A transgender Mongolian in the desert"? Is this really so gravely offensive?
- exarch 12y ago
  It is if you're an overly sensitive SJW twat. Otherwise, no. It isn't insulting to desert-dwelling transgendered Mongolians, just a humorous ad lib pulled from the speaker's memory based on something they happened to have read recently.
  - rosser 12y ago
    You'll pardon me if I reject any argument premised on a notion of someone being an "overly sensitive SJW twat". Comments like that say more about the person uttering them than their arguments.
    - exarch 12y ago
      I won't pardon that, because it shows your bad priorities of style over substance. That kind of flawed reasoning has too many negative consequences for me to merely overlook. Sorry.
- woah 12y ago
  I asked a friend and she gave me this explanation: "It's not compassionate to remind transgender people that they're a minority that often has trouble "passing" and face extreme violence bc of that...if you were a trans woman in the audience who'd been beat up for not being able to pass as cis, how would it make you feel to have that treated like a joke" Seems reasonable. I retract my previous comment.
  - Dylan16807 12y ago
    It does seem reasonable, but does that mean it's not okay to joke about unfair bad things in general? What makes a similar argument valid/invalid?
- 12y ago
exarch 12y ago
>FWIW this is the talk that got them (Ben Nagy and The Grugq) thrown out of Kiwicon See, fuck this. We are all fucked if style begins to trump substance in infosec, like it has in most everything else. Fucking marketing turds. The Grugq is dropping pearls before swine.
- rosser 12y ago
  If you need to say rude things in order to convey your message, you might take a moment to consider whether or not your message is actually worth conveying.
  - exarch 12y ago
    Whether or not a message is perceived as rude is irrelevant and a matter of selfishness. Whether or not it is true is what you should concern yourself with if you mean to get things done.
- Estragon 12y ago
  I would say the talk itself is a triumph of style over substance.
  - mfukar 12y ago
    How so?

gear54rus 12y ago

What I find interesting is that no matter how hard I google, I can't find this joke anywhere. Heard this story before and to this day curiosity is killing me.

emhart 12y ago
The ad-lib appears to be included in the provided PDF.
- gear54rus 12y ago
  Oh so that's the one, and that's this same presentation... Interesting. I for one, find the kicking out hardly justified.
- scintill76 12y ago
  Hmm, "ad-lib" -- given that slide, what did they plan to say? Anyway, it's interesting to me that the pics of mostly-naked men and ASCII Goatse hardly get mentioned, overshadowed by a verbal remark. Maybe the con has changed its policy in response, but did they preview the slide deck?
  - steakejjs 12y ago
    I don't know of any security conferences that preview slides. original research is presented regularly which means your hard work might leak by conference organizers who can't keep their mouths shut. Alsp, many speakers are working on their slides and talk minutes before going on. These talks get finished notoriously late
  - makomk 12y ago
    Apparently they got in trouble for the ASCII Goatse too.
    - scintill76 12y ago
      Yeah, if "got in trouble" == "it was mentioned in a few tweets", but mostly it seems focused on the trans remark. They quite literally assault the eyes of everyone in the room, and it only gets passing mention compared to a non-targeted[0], verbal insult to a certain class of people. Should the severity of an offense really be proportional to the oppression its victims are suffering? [0] I mean they didn't point to a trans person in the room and say, "You're sticking out!"
- MichaelGG 12y ago
  And is pretty much a statement of fact. "Sticking out like a white guy in a Mayan village" would probably have been non notable so I don't follow how it's offensive by switching the subjects.
  - ryanlol 12y ago
    Mentioning in minorities in contexts that aren't explicitly positive is pretty much a holocaust-tier offense.
    - mfukar 12y ago
      Well, it isn't, but p.c. proponents certainly seem to make it seem that way. :-)
lostsock 12y ago
It's on page 30 of the PDF that the HN submission links to.
- mirimir 12y ago
  More cogent is the comment on page 17: "I wanted to remind people about Eldo Kim here ( the Harvard bomb threat hoax ). He had pretty good Concealment ( was using Tor ) but had no cover to explain WHY he was using Tor at that time, and then gave it up under questioning."

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago
Or maybe he's just a jerk who can't learn from experience?

woah 12y ago

"A transgender Mongolian in the desert"? Is this really so gravely offensive?

exarch 12y ago
It is if you're an overly sensitive SJW twat. Otherwise, no. It isn't insulting to desert-dwelling transgendered Mongolians, just a humorous ad lib pulled from the speaker's memory based on something they happened to have read recently.
- rosser 12y ago
  You'll pardon me if I reject any argument premised on a notion of someone being an "overly sensitive SJW twat". Comments like that say more about the person uttering them than their arguments.
  - exarch 12y ago
    I won't pardon that, because it shows your bad priorities of style over substance. That kind of flawed reasoning has too many negative consequences for me to merely overlook. Sorry.
woah 12y ago
I asked a friend and she gave me this explanation: "It's not compassionate to remind transgender people that they're a minority that often has trouble "passing" and face extreme violence bc of that...if you were a trans woman in the audience who'd been beat up for not being able to pass as cis, how would it make you feel to have that treated like a joke" Seems reasonable. I retract my previous comment.
- Dylan16807 12y ago
  It does seem reasonable, but does that mean it's not okay to joke about unfair bad things in general? What makes a similar argument valid/invalid?
12y ago

exarch 12y ago

>FWIW this is the talk that got them (Ben Nagy and The Grugq) thrown out of Kiwicon See, fuck this. We are all fucked if style begins to trump substance in infosec, like it has in most everything else. Fucking marketing turds. The Grugq is dropping pearls before swine.

rosser 12y ago
If you need to say rude things in order to convey your message, you might take a moment to consider whether or not your message is actually worth conveying.
- exarch 12y ago
  Whether or not a message is perceived as rude is irrelevant and a matter of selfishness. Whether or not it is true is what you should concern yourself with if you mean to get things done.
Estragon 12y ago
I would say the talk itself is a triumph of style over substance.
- mfukar 12y ago
  How so?