8 ms·

"Five years ago, the Philadelphia police thought that carrying Arabic-language flashcards was enough to warrant the arrest of an innocent traveler." From a norw

"Five years ago, the Philadelphia police thought that carrying Arabic-language flashcards was enough to warrant the arrest of an innocent traveler." From a norwegian standpoint, where police are not allowed to wear guns, it's fascinating to see how the answer to security problems is more police, harder prison sentences and more violence. What about increasing happiness? In northern Ireland they eventually got rid of terrorism after they started realising that happy people are much less likely to become terrorists.

darkhorn 12y ago
What they did in northern Ireland to make people more happy?
- dalke 12y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_peace_process http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_peace_process . There's no easy answer. It was a lot of work. I don't know enough to summarize the process.
- adventured 12y ago
  It wasn't specific to just the north. Ireland slashed the corporate tax rate, set up a global tax evasion hub, and lured thousands of very large companies to their shores, drastically boosting employment and skill development, which took their per capita income from half of Britain's to greater than Britain's in ~20 years. That significantly reduced the number of disgruntled persons, reducing the supply of terrorist-willing types and reducing the native support for such behavior.
  - gaius 12y ago
    Don't forget the buckets of money "from the EU" (i.e. The UK). And the British jobs lured there by the artificially low taxes. Like Scotland, Ireland plays the victim card very well to extort money from the English.
    - adventured 12y ago
      Definitely, it was an expensive peace. I suppose most are though.
    - GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago
      Given the historical realities of the English-Irish relationship, good for them.
    - coldtea 12y ago
      >Like Scotland, Ireland plays the victim card very well to extort money from the English. Yeah, if only the British haven't raped their freedoms, they'd be playing the victim totally virtually.
      - gaius 12y ago
        Look up the Barnett Formula and the West Lothian Question. The history of the UK is the history of the exploitation of the English.
        deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
        mcguire 12y ago
        Absolutely. The English should have kicked the Scots and Northern Irish loose a long time ago. Hell, they missed their chance last year.
        ambrood 12y ago
        Oh c'mon. The parliament in Westminster is effectively the English parliament, the MPs from outside England notwithstanding.
    - iopq 12y ago
      Oh what's that, some country has lower taxes and out-competes your country in the marketplace? How dare they lure businesses by making their country more business-friendly!
- pjc50 12y ago
  Among many other things, reform of the police with firm commitment to even-handed policing. De-escalating the police and military response to fears of terrorism. Involving the Catholic/republican community in the political process.
joesmo 12y ago
This is America (and specifically Philadelphia where the police is especially corrupt). The goal of police is not to stop terrorism or crime but simply to fill up the jails and create profit for themselves and others by reaching or passing their quotas and making high-profile arrests. And sometimes, ad demonstrated by recent NYPD events, they don't even do their jobs and still get paid. Crime prevention and offender rehabilitation are not the goals of modern American policing and the modern American prison system respectively. Profit is.
- chrislgrigg 12y ago
  This is a bit of the stretch. Philadelphia is a complex city with complex problems and its police department reflects this. It has plenty of problems but it also has a lot of cops who care.
  - existencebox 12y ago
    Growing up in Philly, that was not the perception of the kids who got thrown into dumpsters during a police raid on a prom. This is anecdotal, but in one of the hotbeds of police/citizen conflict, I don't think it serves a purpose to try and pull the "there are always good ones" card. Yes, there are, but until the systemic problems are dealt with they aren't the ones having an impact.
    - pluma 12y ago
      There were good Wehrmacht soldiers, too. Can't blame Allied soldiers for shooting at them, though. I'm saying that as a German, mind you.
      - existencebox 12y ago
        This is absolutely a complete and utter tangent but you touched on something I've really been wondering about: Watching a lot of ken burns lately, heard him tell quite a few stories of German regular army officers going out of their way to protect enemy combatants/POWs from being killed/taken to death camps to the extent that there seemed to be quite the little power struggle from among the nazi ranks; naturally (but unfortunately) since it was an American documentary it wasn't the primary focus, but I'd love to hear of any german made documentaries that do justice to the "people" side of things from the non-american point of view. (maybe this is assumptive and rude but I figured a German on HN would be the best person to ask; hope it wasn't too out of place!)
anomalous 12y ago
I don't know that it's worthwhile to compare small countries with ethnically homogenous populations, homogenous communities, different social values, and citizens with reduced access to weaponry to a large, ethnically diverse nation, with diverse and segregated communities, with different social values and history, and citizens with greater access to firearms.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- pjc50 12y ago
  thomasfl's comment did point out Northern Ireland, whose communities were so segregated there's a mini Berlin wall in part of the city ("Peace Line"), and where there's plenty of firearms and also high explosives. Disarmament was a critical and controversial part of the peace process.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 12y ago
    After reading your comment and it's parent I had this thought: Whereas the case for firearm ownership in the US is ostensibly to call to arms a militia to overthrow a tyrannical government, what has actually happened is the populace are too busy shooting each other to realise tyranny. Although, I think, to believe what I just wrote requires a bunch of biases and leaps of faith with regard to rates of violence governmental tyranny. I'm reading Steven Pinker's 'The Better Angels of Our Nature', which is doing a good job of highlighting that, even in the US, violence has decreased over time. Edit: a word
  - tankenmate 12y ago
    Actually there are several peace walls in Belfast; and also there are more now than there were during the '70s / '80s. Also, there are parties on both sides of the divide who are still armed; it's just the largest and most politically engaged groups who are no longer armed.
- Zigurd 12y ago
  > homogenous populations What I think you mean to say is "populations that are treated with equal discretion and respect by police, and, when they are very young, by school discipline." Otherwise someone might think you are a racist.
jkot 12y ago
Yeah, Norway is shinning beacon of humanity. Except barnevernet which has even lamer excuses and is for life, not 5 hours.
- pgrote 12y ago
  I was ignorant of the term, but am unsure how it is different than other country's child services. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_Welfare_Services_(Norway) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_Welfare_Services_(Norway...
  - jkot 12y ago
    Norway has way too many similar cases, for such small country of only 5 million people. Barnevernet also puts artificial obstructions for adoption by biological relatives, such as grandparents. As someone said, accused parents in such cases have less rights than Breivik.
    - ambrood 12y ago
      I recall a diplomatic incident with India when they tried to take away custody of Indian citizen children from their parents and put them in foster care or something.
    - thanksgiving 12y ago
      > As someone said, accused parents in such cases have less rights than Breivik. Hang on a minute. Here in the US, my tax dollars support your children. WIC and Food Stamps and school lunch programs which come from my tax dollars ensure your infants and children do not starve in case something happens to you or your income. As a parent, you get to claim tax deductions which means more money out of my pocket to cover for the loss of tax revenue. As I see it, your children are not your property. The children belong to the community at large. They are my investment. If you are damaging our collective investment, I very much expect you to be relieved of your duties to take care of my investment.
      - 12y ago
klunger 12y ago
As an American who lives in Norway, I understand just how confusing this may be to you. The difference, I have come to believe after living here for a few years, stems from a different perspective on long- and short-term interests. Americans are, in general, I think (please note this is my opinion and do not down vote me for making this observation) more likely to support solutions that appear to resolve the given issue in the most intuitive and seemingly fastest way. While the intention may be good, this rather simplistic view contradicts the reality that subtler, research-based and longer-view solutions are often the wiser choice. Examples of this include things like research into prison sentences and conditions and their relation to recidivism rates; or ideas about parental leave being better for businesses in the long term, despite the short term loss of productivity. In this particular case, it is an issue of very short-term thinking from the police who do not realize that their draconian tactics, which seemingly are for the best interest of security today, are in fact more likely to engender civil unrest (or emigration, in my case, since I have no appetite for that) in the long run.
- hueving 12y ago
  You're right about the desire for short term goals. However, only focusing on long term solutions is not a luxury the US has. It has made many enemies who are trying to actively harm US citizens. It does need better long term strategies to prevent future enemies, but it also needs to deal with the people that already believe their path to a wonderful afterlife is achieved via blowing themselves up in populated places. Keep in mind the US is always going to be on someone's bad side as long as they assume the role of world watch dog. It's convenient for Norway to wash their hands of any messy killings, but they don't seem to care for the spread of ISIS either.
pluma 12y ago
But making sad people happier imposes on the liberty of happy people to be happier than the sad people. Something something nanny state.

darkhorn 12y ago

What they did in northern Ireland to make people more happy?

dalke 12y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_peace_process http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_peace_process . There's no easy answer. It was a lot of work. I don't know enough to summarize the process.
adventured 12y ago
It wasn't specific to just the north. Ireland slashed the corporate tax rate, set up a global tax evasion hub, and lured thousands of very large companies to their shores, drastically boosting employment and skill development, which took their per capita income from half of Britain's to greater than Britain's in ~20 years. That significantly reduced the number of disgruntled persons, reducing the supply of terrorist-willing types and reducing the native support for such behavior.
- gaius 12y ago
  Don't forget the buckets of money "from the EU" (i.e. The UK). And the British jobs lured there by the artificially low taxes. Like Scotland, Ireland plays the victim card very well to extort money from the English.
  - adventured 12y ago
    Definitely, it was an expensive peace. I suppose most are though.
  - GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago
    Given the historical realities of the English-Irish relationship, good for them.
  - coldtea 12y ago
    >Like Scotland, Ireland plays the victim card very well to extort money from the English. Yeah, if only the British haven't raped their freedoms, they'd be playing the victim totally virtually.
    - gaius 12y ago
      Look up the Barnett Formula and the West Lothian Question. The history of the UK is the history of the exploitation of the English.
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
      - mcguire 12y ago
        Absolutely. The English should have kicked the Scots and Northern Irish loose a long time ago. Hell, they missed their chance last year.
      - ambrood 12y ago
        Oh c'mon. The parliament in Westminster is effectively the English parliament, the MPs from outside England notwithstanding.
  - iopq 12y ago
    Oh what's that, some country has lower taxes and out-competes your country in the marketplace? How dare they lure businesses by making their country more business-friendly!
pjc50 12y ago
Among many other things, reform of the police with firm commitment to even-handed policing. De-escalating the police and military response to fears of terrorism. Involving the Catholic/republican community in the political process.

joesmo 12y ago

This is America (and specifically Philadelphia where the police is especially corrupt). The goal of police is not to stop terrorism or crime but simply to fill up the jails and create profit for themselves and others by reaching or passing their quotas and making high-profile arrests. And sometimes, ad demonstrated by recent NYPD events, they don't even do their jobs and still get paid. Crime prevention and offender rehabilitation are not the goals of modern American policing and the modern American prison system respectively. Profit is.

chrislgrigg 12y ago
This is a bit of the stretch. Philadelphia is a complex city with complex problems and its police department reflects this. It has plenty of problems but it also has a lot of cops who care.
- existencebox 12y ago
  Growing up in Philly, that was not the perception of the kids who got thrown into dumpsters during a police raid on a prom. This is anecdotal, but in one of the hotbeds of police/citizen conflict, I don't think it serves a purpose to try and pull the "there are always good ones" card. Yes, there are, but until the systemic problems are dealt with they aren't the ones having an impact.
  - pluma 12y ago
    There were good Wehrmacht soldiers, too. Can't blame Allied soldiers for shooting at them, though. I'm saying that as a German, mind you.
    - existencebox 12y ago
      This is absolutely a complete and utter tangent but you touched on something I've really been wondering about: Watching a lot of ken burns lately, heard him tell quite a few stories of German regular army officers going out of their way to protect enemy combatants/POWs from being killed/taken to death camps to the extent that there seemed to be quite the little power struggle from among the nazi ranks; naturally (but unfortunately) since it was an American documentary it wasn't the primary focus, but I'd love to hear of any german made documentaries that do justice to the "people" side of things from the non-american point of view. (maybe this is assumptive and rude but I figured a German on HN would be the best person to ask; hope it wasn't too out of place!)

anomalous 12y ago

I don't know that it's worthwhile to compare small countries with ethnically homogenous populations, homogenous communities, different social values, and citizens with reduced access to weaponry to a large, ethnically diverse nation, with diverse and segregated communities, with different social values and history, and citizens with greater access to firearms.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
pjc50 12y ago
thomasfl's comment did point out Northern Ireland, whose communities were so segregated there's a mini Berlin wall in part of the city ("Peace Line"), and where there's plenty of firearms and also high explosives. Disarmament was a critical and controversial part of the peace process.
- TheSpiceIsLife 12y ago
  After reading your comment and it's parent I had this thought: Whereas the case for firearm ownership in the US is ostensibly to call to arms a militia to overthrow a tyrannical government, what has actually happened is the populace are too busy shooting each other to realise tyranny. Although, I think, to believe what I just wrote requires a bunch of biases and leaps of faith with regard to rates of violence governmental tyranny. I'm reading Steven Pinker's 'The Better Angels of Our Nature', which is doing a good job of highlighting that, even in the US, violence has decreased over time. Edit: a word
- tankenmate 12y ago
  Actually there are several peace walls in Belfast; and also there are more now than there were during the '70s / '80s. Also, there are parties on both sides of the divide who are still armed; it's just the largest and most politically engaged groups who are no longer armed.
Zigurd 12y ago
> homogenous populations What I think you mean to say is "populations that are treated with equal discretion and respect by police, and, when they are very young, by school discipline." Otherwise someone might think you are a racist.

jkot 12y ago

Yeah, Norway is shinning beacon of humanity. Except barnevernet which has even lamer excuses and is for life, not 5 hours.

pgrote 12y ago
I was ignorant of the term, but am unsure how it is different than other country's child services. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_Welfare_Services_(Norway) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_Welfare_Services_(Norway...
- jkot 12y ago
  Norway has way too many similar cases, for such small country of only 5 million people. Barnevernet also puts artificial obstructions for adoption by biological relatives, such as grandparents. As someone said, accused parents in such cases have less rights than Breivik.
  - ambrood 12y ago
    I recall a diplomatic incident with India when they tried to take away custody of Indian citizen children from their parents and put them in foster care or something.
  - thanksgiving 12y ago
    > As someone said, accused parents in such cases have less rights than Breivik. Hang on a minute. Here in the US, my tax dollars support your children. WIC and Food Stamps and school lunch programs which come from my tax dollars ensure your infants and children do not starve in case something happens to you or your income. As a parent, you get to claim tax deductions which means more money out of my pocket to cover for the loss of tax revenue. As I see it, your children are not your property. The children belong to the community at large. They are my investment. If you are damaging our collective investment, I very much expect you to be relieved of your duties to take care of my investment.
    - 12y ago

klunger 12y ago

As an American who lives in Norway, I understand just how confusing this may be to you. The difference, I have come to believe after living here for a few years, stems from a different perspective on long- and short-term interests. Americans are, in general, I think (please note this is my opinion and do not down vote me for making this observation) more likely to support solutions that appear to resolve the given issue in the most intuitive and seemingly fastest way. While the intention may be good, this rather simplistic view contradicts the reality that subtler, research-based and longer-view solutions are often the wiser choice. Examples of this include things like research into prison sentences and conditions and their relation to recidivism rates; or ideas about parental leave being better for businesses in the long term, despite the short term loss of productivity. In this particular case, it is an issue of very short-term thinking from the police who do not realize that their draconian tactics, which seemingly are for the best interest of security today, are in fact more likely to engender civil unrest (or emigration, in my case, since I have no appetite for that) in the long run.

hueving 12y ago
You're right about the desire for short term goals. However, only focusing on long term solutions is not a luxury the US has. It has made many enemies who are trying to actively harm US citizens. It does need better long term strategies to prevent future enemies, but it also needs to deal with the people that already believe their path to a wonderful afterlife is achieved via blowing themselves up in populated places. Keep in mind the US is always going to be on someone's bad side as long as they assume the role of world watch dog. It's convenient for Norway to wash their hands of any messy killings, but they don't seem to care for the spread of ISIS either.

pluma 12y ago

But making sad people happier imposes on the liberty of happy people to be happier than the sad people. Something something nanny state.