13 ms·

When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

198 points by lelf 12y ago

alimoeeny 12y ago
I understand that this is against the "wisdom", but I always wanted to build a compensation-transparent-company. In which it is open (at least internally) how much everybody makes (including equity). And people have ways to change their compensation over longish periods of time and the ratio of cash / equity.
- RankingMember 12y ago
  There are some companies doing that, though obviously they're in the minority at this point. http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/07/02/327758712/the-company-where-everyone-knows-everyone-elses-salary http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/07/02/327758712/the-comp...
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- protomyth 12y ago
  I have always wanted to own a company where we put the salaries on the wall of a employee-only conference room and paid profit sharing. I doubt it would work, but I would love to try it.
  - kevbin 12y ago
    The state of California puts all its workers' compensation on the web: http://www.sacbee.com/site-services/databases/state-pay/#req=employee%2Ftop%2Fyear%3D2014 http://www.sacbee.com/site-services/databases/state-pay/#req...
    - dlp211 12y ago
      I know that quite a few states do this, I don't have an exact number so I don't want to quantify it, but it's more than at least 8 (<- every state I have lived in does it + cali). Also, while not directly disclosed on a per employee basis, every single federal employee salary can be determined since their level and years of service is not confidential and their salary is based on a schedule. Same for the military(even easier since they wear their 'level' on their sleeve).
      - Spooky23 12y ago
        Almost all employee salaries are accessible through freedom of information requests. In the .gov I work for, HR is so incompetent and people are allowed to make up bullshit titles, that accessing the local newspaper's employee database is the quickest way to find out this type of info.
- gavinballard 12y ago
  Buffer is quite well known for this, you can view the salary of everyone in the company here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgrWVeoG5divdE81a2wzcHYxV1pacWE1UjM3V0w0MUE&usp=sharing https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgrWVeoG5divdE8....
- justincormack 12y ago
  Both Sweden and Norway publish everyone's tax payments.
  - yxhuvud 12y ago
    We do, but it takes quite a bit of work to actually look it up for someone.
    - rebyn 12y ago
      Still better than nothing :).
  - bjourne 12y ago
    Yes, but the numbers are always delayed two years. So today, I could look up what someone paid in tax in 2013 if I wanted. But it's just the total taxation amount for that year and doesnt tell you anything in detal. So if you had that number you could roughly estimate what someone earned by dividing with about 32% (the median tax rate). But due to tax deductions, sick days, vacation, pension fund deposits etc your salary guess would be very fuzzy.
- bsimpson 12y ago
  You mean, like Glassdoor?
- daigoba66 12y ago
  It's a bit older, but an interesting take on open salaries: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000038.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000038.html
- rcxdude 12y ago
  I know of at least two companies (in the UK) which do this. They are fairly small companies, however.
foolinaround 12y ago
there is a need for some tool similar to glassdoor that can verify the authencity of the info posted by a user (email address, position, etc) that can be used reliably by others to confidently share salaries without retribution.
- RankingMember 12y ago
  I had a similar thought with regard to verifying employment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8204401 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8204401 Maybe we're on to something.
  - foolinaround 12y ago
    so, basically, a person signs up with some site with high degree of identification ( ssn, state id, email id, office id card, whatever, depending on the situation ). So, his identity with the central site is intact. Then, this person creates a throwaway id for this particular posting, and this throwaway cannot be openly linked back to the person, by anyone other than the site itself. The weakness of course is in the central site. And to solve this problem, there are a few decentralized trust solutions
    - RankingMember 12y ago
      I like this. The vulnerability lies with the verifying site, so it would need to be crazy secure. Know any seasoned web developers with some crypto knowledge?
- tbyehl 12y ago
  Companies are giving this information to Equifax, just not for the benefit of subjects... https://www.theworknumber.com/ https://www.theworknumber.com/
protomyth 12y ago
I was at a company[1] where all the bill rates for a consultant heavy project got leaked by bad permissions on documents. I didn't think much of it at the time because I knew my bill rate (my share was a %). There were a two groups of pretty ticked off people. The employees who were "underpaid"[2] and the consultants who didn't know their bill rate[3]. It is an odd example of what happens when every knows what the company values them at. 1) no longer around in the form they were, but still not saying 2) truthfully, some of the consultant bill rates given the other expenses like taxes & insurance were not that far off the equivalent employee salary - particularly the H1B body shops 3) I think some were getting paid about 25% of their bill rate
- thatusertwo 12y ago
  25% sounds about right.
  - protomyth 12y ago
    If you're getting 25% as a consultant and not an H1B, then you probably should go through someone else. That is pretty pathetic.
protomyth 12y ago
"The bill that would cover the rest of workers is the Paycheck Fairness Act. The law would both strengthen penalties to employers who retaliate against workers for discussing pay and require employers to provide a justification for wage differentials." I'm cool with the first part. Information makes the free market better. The second part is problematic and will just add paperwork with about as much hope of being honest as the justification body shops use to get H1Bs instead of local workers.
Iv 12y ago
I work for more than a decade now and I still am unsure about what rule to follow. Here are a few things that I have seen happening: I once believed in transparency about that. I told my salary to a friend I just helped to get hired in the company where I already had a few years of experience. Upon hearing my higher salary, he immediately went to my boss to ask for a raise. Due to an incredible incompetence of the HR department, I once saw the salary of a lot of different people in the 30 people company I was part of. I was not shocked by the 2-3x that a senior developer was making compared to me. I was shocked to see that our CEO had the highest salary (5x to 6x) for the job he did. That was actually one of the element that made me consider resignation and freelancing. I think that one of the thing that hiding salaries causes is that it makes it impossible to talk about the cashflow of the company without people being able to compute if they are below or above average (and when the CEO earns the double everyone earns, the average will be pretty high) but it makes it harder for employees to understand what clients are important, what resources are available for a project, and so on.
- raverbashing 12y ago
  Well, do you know what has a bigger impact than seeing your coworker's salaries? Seeing how much the customers of your company are billed for the job you do.
  - mgkimsal 12y ago
    Generally, agreed, at least the first time. I was being paid.. $17/hr and being billed out at $100/hr. I moved to a company starting at $22/hr, being billed out at $150-$175/hr. The 'hourly' was just a breakdown of salaried - sometimes worked more than 40hrs, never paid for it. And I also get that people aren't 100% billable, you have to build in downtime to the salary, etc. I get it. But I do know in one year I billed out about 1600 hours at at least $150/hr - asked for a $10k raise, and was denied. So I left. In some situations since then I appreciate the 'team' model a bit more - that's what I was pitched in my 'no raise' reply. "We're a team, etc" But in this particular project, I was doing 95% of the work. I trained my replacements during my notice, and a month later the client moved over to me anyway, because I literally was the project. Note to agency companies - don't ever let one large project become the sole domain of one employee. For various reasons, this is not good business.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
Jugurtha 12y ago
I was at a company once where they talked about it casually. The career path was clear, etc. You had your salary, and your bonus. The bonus is easy to compute: It was a percentage of how much the company charged the other company for the work you did. Like if the job you did that day cost $200k, you get 2k. But to get back on topic, I think everyone should take a look at a book called "Winning Through Intimidation" by Robert J. Ringer. The title is misleading. The content is "How not to be manipulated by people who use intimidation tactics, and here are the typical ones they use subtly so there's no way you could complain, and here's how to recognize what they're doing, and here's the way to deal with it".
- serve_yay 12y ago
  That does sound good, thanks for the tip.
  - Jugurtha 12y ago
    You're welcome.
FigBug 12y ago
On a recent contract I took, the end client told me what they were paying for my services -- about 6x what I was getting paid. They were pretty annoyed, and I was threatened with legal action for discussing financial matters with an end client. I haven't heard from either side since December, so I'm guessing that contract is pretty much dead.
- bsimpson 12y ago
  IANAL, but I know people who went on to freelance directly for the client in similar situations.
  - odonnellryan 12y ago
    Usually you sign some kind of non-compete, but I think it's bad business for the contracting company to follow through on it.
- nraynaud 12y ago
  I live in a country when employees are more protected, and my client told me: I'm ready to pay more so you get a higher salary. I didn't get a higher salary and left a few weeks later, anyways service at BigCo (230000 names in the phone book) was not my thing, I blew everybody away in the IT department by showing them SVN (it was before git), they were commissioning the development of a custom versioning system.
- themystic_ca 12y ago
  As a contractor, you do not enjoy the same kinds of protection that an employee does. Nor is discussing pay with the end client equivalent to discussing it with a fellow employee. Maybe if you had been discussing it with fellow contractor it might match some of what the article was talking about. I'm surprised that your contract did not include an NDA that prevented you from discussing this kind of information with the end client.
  - FigBug 12y ago
    My contract did not specifically mention salary though it was argued it was covered by the general confidential information clause. I'm used to working for the government where salary is publicly available, so I didn't even think twice about mentioning it. It came up when we were reviewing another consultants report, and he had put his compensation in the report. I made a comment of surprise about how much he was being paid, which pretty much gave away I was getting less and they were paying more.
serve_yay 12y ago
I agree with the notion that not speaking about money generally benefits companies more than employees. But I have been in situations where people were speaking about it, and refused to say what I make, precisely because they were making so much less than me. Now when that happens, I try to steer the conversation towards things that I think might help them get what they deserve. Some people feel so lucky to get a job that they take whatever's on offer, then they end up feeling screwed later and don't know what to do.
swombat 12y ago
Here's the completely opposite angle... http://danieltenner.com/2015/01/23/fake-transparency/ http://danieltenner.com/2015/01/23/fake-transparency/ Complete salary transparency is what should be pursued, if at all possible.
crazy1van 12y ago
This article seems to basically say its already illegal to prohibit employees from discussing pay (NLRA 1935) and it is certainly illegal to pay someone less based on race or sex (Equal Pay Act, and others) but the solution to wage discrimination is pass more laws that make it illegal-er. I have a hard time buying this argument. If you are an employer despicable enough to systematically be paying women less just for being women, I don't think another redundant law is going to change your behavior. This seems like a feel good exercise. People still buy drugs? Pass another law that says trafficking drugs is super duper illegal. Another heinous murder? Make it extra illegal to murder someone. In fact, make it extra illegal to murder someone with a specific type of weapon. This stuff doesn't seem to matter. Drug dealers know they face stiff penalties if caught. People who have decided to murder another human really don't care if the penalties are higher if they use a gun versus a tire iron. And, misogynist employers aren't going to be swayed by yet another law that says treat all people the same regardless of sex, for reals this time.
- throwaway217384 12y ago
  I believe this sometimes happens because women are less likely to counter-offer and negotiate during the hiring process. It sucks.
  - nawitus 12y ago
    So does that mean that companies would favour women as they can be paid less?
    - throwaway217384 12y ago
      Interesting question. I think many, men and women, are still biased against women because they believe they are catty and dramatic or are afraid of increased legal issues (lawsuits). These are obviously not reality either and it too sucks.
      - mistermann 12y ago
        Is "women are less likely to counter-offer and negotiate during the hiring process" obviously not reality also? (Serious question.)
throwaway217384 12y ago
I work for a smaller software company (~25 employees) and basically manage all things IT (internal business IT and software development). I'm responsible for the IT budget, our software developer salaries are the single largest company "expense". When I started several years ago it came to my attention that the existing developers and IT staff were drastically underpaid (there was one other internal developer, an internal IT guy, myself, and a few outside contractors). I brought it to the attention of my bosses (managing partners) and have made it my goal to bring other developers salaries up to par. When I was hired I was making almost double what the other two were. I realized one of the biggest risks to the company was if either one of them decided to look across the street and find they could probably get a 40% raise on the spot. If they left a lot of knowledge and investment would walk out the door. Over that past few years we've weened ourselves off the contractors/consultants and have hired internally. We are now at ~8 developers. In order to hire the more recent developers we've had to offer market rate salaries. During reviews and hiring I've always told employees not to discuss their salary, mostly for psychological reasons. No matter what someone will feel bad. "What if you make more than them? They might not think you're worth more than them. Causing tension and friction. What if they make more that you? Same thing." I know that some have discussed it salary with others. At times it ticks me off.. makes me want to ensure they aren't lying by reducing their or withholding their next raise. (Please note that's a immediate gut reaction and I throw it out the window) quickly. I'm happy to report, after much effort, I've been able to show the managing partners again this year that some developers still need larger than COLA raises (some should get 20%, 15%, 10% and most 5%). They are weary but I think they finally understand the importance of this. We do reviews and raises in a few months, and when I sit down with them I will still insist on not talking about salary or raise (amount/percent) and use the same explanation as before. Yes, no one wants to be taken advantage of and the easiest way we think about doing that is salary transparency. That would work great in a world were psychology and subjectiveness didn't exist. I tend to be a very logical, analytical, rational personal. And as much as I hate office politics, emotions getting in the way, and having to hack psychology, they exist and as the logical, analytical, and rational person I think I am those things must be factored into going about things.
- throwaway217384 12y ago
bsimpson 12y ago
I'm currently working as a temp at a well-known institution. (I'm getting paid a healthy hourly rate for what would easily be a salaried position if I was on staff.) It's effectively freelancing, but I had to join an agency to satisfy this corporation's bureaucracy. It's in my contract with the agency that the rate they pay me is confidential, to be discussed with no one. Is that also illegal?
- throwaway217384 12y ago
  Probably depends on your jurisdiction. Some might say you're breaking your contract in doing so. I wonder if you could get in trouble by disclosing that "I'm paid approximately between $25 and $30 per hour."
asgard1024 12y ago
> When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid' You say, "Are you ashamed of how much you pay me?", and start looking for another job.
- maayank 12y ago
  "no, but your kind of talent is so valuable I pay you more than others and the awkwardness would hurt everybody"
  - enraged_camel 12y ago
    Yeah, I agree. I used to believe that employers are being malicious and selfish when they hide salary details (and maybe some are), but over the years I've come to realize that most employees are simply too immature to accept that they may not actually be as valuable/important as they think. I personally wouldn't want to deal with all the awkwardness and drama introduced into the workplace even if it resulted in a 10-15% pay raise for me (although that's just me).
bithush 12y ago
In my opinion salary information should not be kept a secret except on personal request. Openness in pay, responsibilities and performance[0] leads to a far healthier company in my opinion and experience. That is not to say you stick the salary information out in the open in a database for all to check at will but during [pay] reviews I feel it is important to be able to see how much you earn compared to your direct colleagues. This is also good for a company as it means they actively working towards equality. [0] This is obviously quite difficult because performance can be very tricky to measure fairly and can cause problems in comparisons to other positions. The same is true of performance related bonuses which I am fine with keeping private.
- enraged_camel 12y ago
  I wonder if the data could be displayed anonymously, i.e. "your salary is 80th percentile in your department" or something like that. It would give you the information without disclosing how much each individual makes.
  - Terr_ 12y ago
    > i.e. "your salary is 80th percentile in your department" or something like that. Too little information: There could be 90 people paid peanuts and 10 people paid lavishly, and even in the same "department" some jobs might be radically different.
gambiting 12y ago
I work for a large games developer(one of the largest ones in the world in fact), and the salaries are completely taboo. No one will say how much they are paid, no one will say what bonuses they've got, nothing. When I asked the HR manager what I can expect to be making if I advance higher up, the answer was "that depends", and when I asked for an estimate they said they can't give one. I absolutely love the job, it's the best thing ever - but I honestly don't understand the salary secrecy.
paulhauggis 12y ago
If all salary was displayed publicly it wouldn't help the employee. It would take almost all negotiating abilities away (a senior developer with 5 years of experience will be paid the same rate as a senior developer with 10 years because companies don't want unhappy employees and people with the same titles will be upset they are not paid the same rate) and allow many companies to legally collude and pay similar rates (which will be the lowest they can get away with). For the individual, not having public salary works great because you really do have negotiating power. I no longer work for anyone, but when I did, I would regularly ask for a higher wage at my next company for essentially the same position. If my next company knows that all other companies in the industry are paying 20% less for my position, why would they pay me more? I've also heard stories from Sweden where larger companies will pull tax returns of the other companies (and employees) they are doing business with and will base their contracts on this information being a regular practice(giving lower rates because they know the company is making more money. Or even not dealing with the company at all because they are so small). I've never understood why smart people want to willingly give the more powerful in this world even more tools that will work against them.
- Udik 12y ago
  I agree. When salaries are not public, there is just one factor that influences them, that is, the value that the company puts on that employee and the fear of losing him/ her to a better offer. On the other hand, it's much easier for the company to reject a request for a pay rise because it might upset other employees. Note, this mechanism only works downwards: the company will never give a pay rise to nine employees on the grounds that the tenth already has a higher salary.
  - tbrownaw 12y ago
    Note, this mechanism only works downwards: the company will never give a pay rise to nine employees on the grounds that the tenth already has a higher salary. You assume the outlier will always be at the high end. What happens when instead of one person being paid much more than everyone else, it's one person that's paid much less than everyone else?
- 12y ago
baby 12y ago
Take a look at buffer: https://open.bufferapp.com/introducing-open-salaries-at-buffer-including-our-transparent-formula-and-all-individual-salaries/ https://open.bufferapp.com/introducing-open-salaries-at-buff... all salaries are public in a spreadsheet. _YOU_ can see what everyone is getting paid. I think it's pretty interesting.
- odonnellryan 12y ago
  Does this include bonuses?
  - baby 12y ago
    I have no idea. I got interested by their "culture" but didn't dig that far in the "paycheck" realm.
    - odonnellryan 12y ago
      Ahhh. I just see the CEO pay as being "little." I mean, a good dev can earn that much. I know several ~30 person companies where the CEO/owner is making at least 1mil a year after bonuses. It's insane. I'd love to see what you linked more often - highest salary (they did start the company) but not by a factor of 10! So it just got me curious.
Havoc 12y ago
At my previous work it was pretty much an open secret. Plus there was lots of trust & the progression was pretty predictable so you could pretty much ask someone straight what they were earning.
nickbauman 12y ago
Didn't everyone work this issue out when they first entered the work force? Soon after I got my first job out of college my employer told me it was "not a good idea to talk about your compensation" with my co-workers. You know how they say "consider the source" when you get information? Why would my employer not want me to share my compensation with my co-workers? _Because it benefits them_ if their workforce is oblivious about who is getting paid what. Make no mistake: sharing compensation information freely among your colleagues is, to most employers, the thin edge of a long wedge towards organized labor. Personally, I would do it more often if people weren't so freaked out about it. So the bosses have waged a good campaign: it's a social norm.
- sxp 12y ago
  If you know the salary of the people you're directly working with, things can get awkward. One alternative is to discuss salary with people who are sufficiently distant from your daily work but are expected to be making the same amount as you. For large companies, this would be people in different divisions who have the same title and years of experience. For small companies, you will probably need to talk to people in other companies. In my first job out of college, I knew the range of salaries people were earning for entry level software positions because I had discussed this with friends. I negotiated a 10% raise to my first company's starting salary because I used my friends' salaries as a benchmark.
  - tbrownaw 12y ago
    If you know the salary of the people you're directly working with, things can get awkward. One alternative is to discuss salary with people who are sufficiently distant from your daily work What about things like everyone writing down how much they make and putting it in a hat? Everyone gets all the numbers and how they compare with everyone else, but doesn't know which other number goes with which person.
    - speik 12y ago
      But within a certain range, I really only care what someone in a similar position to me is making.
eyeareque 12y ago
I would be happy if my boss told me this... it would mean that I am getting paid higher than the norm.
- readme 12y ago
  That makes no sense. It could also be because he is paying you less. You should read the article.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- Devthrowaway80 12y ago
  That's a rather optimistic take on it.
Animats 12y ago
What we need in the US is tough enforcement of the existing labor laws. The Wage and Hour Act, classification of employees vs contractors, and the right to organize are all in US law, but the penalties are weak. Did you know that you have the legal right in the US to organize a union whether your employer likes it or not? In Canada, those rights have more teeth, and that alone produces much higher unionization.
- NegativeK 12y ago
  Wal-Mart closes stores when unionization gains momentum. Pizza Hut (hearsay) has an undocumented policy of "fire people who talk about unions." When you're pulling near minimum wage, losing your job over labor laws isn't very appealing. I believe Chick-fil-A put wage discussions as fireable in my paperwork, as have other tech companies. Some of the people who need unions the most can't get them, as the Labor Board hasn't enough teeth and the public isn't very favorable toward unions.
hackaflocka 12y ago
I think when your boss tells you that, the proper response would be to write an op-ed about it on Medium, while blending in themes of Paternalism, The Patriarchy, Feminism, Mansplaining, Manterrupting and Sea Lioning.
varelse 12y ago
IMO there is every incentive for employees to compare salaries (except at startups where total compensation is directly proportional to how much risk you took to get there). Everything below is about 1000+ or so employee well-established companies so salary ladders should long since have become consistent. If you find out you're making more, question why your co-worker is making so much less. It could be you the next round. If you find out you're making substantially less, you can try bringing it up with your boss, but your boss will likely channel that to HR and then HR will tell you why you aren't worth any more than your current salary (that's their purpose in this situation, don't fool yourself otherwise). However, if you use this information as a sign that you should go interview to determine your market rate, and you get a better offer somewhere else, you can now use that as leverage against your current employer. If they need you, they'll match the offer, and your compensation problems will go away for the next few years. At some companies, this is the easiest path to a raise despite the negative perception of "accepting the counter." If they won't match the offer, then that's a great sign that it's time to leave. IMO you should treat your job choices as an asset. If that asset starts lagging the market, you need to invest in another one.
geebee 12y ago
I'm generally in favor of making information public. I work for a public university, and my salary is public info, so is everyone else's. The sky hasn't fallen. Real estate transactions tend to be public as well. I can look up how much the house down the street sold for. Imagine if this information were not public, but a few insiders were able to get at it. They'd have a monumental advantage over everyone else. That's kind of the position employers are in relative to employees. One angle on this - I think that any employer that uses the H1B or other worker visas should be obligated to share compensation information for all workers (not just the visa recipients), the same way public universities and government organizations are required to. That means name, job title, and total yearly compensation.
curiously 12y ago
I had co-workers tell me 'its rude to share salaries'. This tech company in Vancouver was well known to pay the lowest salary in North America and excruciating overtime. I always find it amusing how hard people will fight over something so small, when there's so little to gain, people will work so hard for it.
nurettin 12y ago
There will always be people who think "that guy sits around all day and earns twice as much as me while I work my ass off" rightfully or out of ignorance. This puts the boss/dept. manager in a weak position.
- Retra 12y ago
  Don't hire morons then? I mean, if employees can hurt your business just by knowing how it works, then you're fucked anyway.
thrway20150124 12y ago
Throwaway account for various reasons... There's social norms that make many people feel uncomfortable talking about money. One of the big ones being jealously. Either you being jealous of other people's success, or vice-versa. Be sheer luck, when I entered the tech workforce some 30 years ago, I developed a close group of friends, also in tech, and we would be open about our compensation and help each other with negotiation. I cannot overstate how valuable each of us have found that. There's two big reasons: First, starting a new job (or sometimes asking for a raise) is a big life change. There's a big emotional element & it's hard to be rational. Having people you trust who have your best interest at heart but do not have their thoughts clouded by emotion is huge. Second, negotiating is hard for most people, especially if you don't have much experience in it. Talking strategy & approach as a group gives everyone more experience, and there's the added benefit you guy in knowing you're not crazy. You're less likely to have doubt & more likely to stick to your guns. Throughout the years, each of has leapfrogged each other multiple times. The guy making the least suddenly becomes the guy making the most. When that happens pretty much everyone is happy/excited. The general view is "hey, now we now there's more out there!" The realization is that it's not us against each other, but us against everyone else. The more the group collectively makes, the better.

198 points by lelf 12y ago

I understand that this is against the "wisdom", but I always wanted to build a compensation-transparent-company. In which it is open (at least internally) how much everybody makes (including equity). And people have ways to change their compensation over longish periods of time and the ratio of cash / equity.

RankingMember 12y ago
There are some companies doing that, though obviously they're in the minority at this point. http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/07/02/327758712/the-company-where-everyone-knows-everyone-elses-salary http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/07/02/327758712/the-comp...
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
protomyth 12y ago
I have always wanted to own a company where we put the salaries on the wall of a employee-only conference room and paid profit sharing. I doubt it would work, but I would love to try it.
- kevbin 12y ago
  The state of California puts all its workers' compensation on the web: http://www.sacbee.com/site-services/databases/state-pay/#req=employee%2Ftop%2Fyear%3D2014 http://www.sacbee.com/site-services/databases/state-pay/#req...
  - dlp211 12y ago
    I know that quite a few states do this, I don't have an exact number so I don't want to quantify it, but it's more than at least 8 (<- every state I have lived in does it + cali). Also, while not directly disclosed on a per employee basis, every single federal employee salary can be determined since their level and years of service is not confidential and their salary is based on a schedule. Same for the military(even easier since they wear their 'level' on their sleeve).
    - Spooky23 12y ago
      Almost all employee salaries are accessible through freedom of information requests. In the .gov I work for, HR is so incompetent and people are allowed to make up bullshit titles, that accessing the local newspaper's employee database is the quickest way to find out this type of info.
gavinballard 12y ago
Buffer is quite well known for this, you can view the salary of everyone in the company here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgrWVeoG5divdE81a2wzcHYxV1pacWE1UjM3V0w0MUE&usp=sharing https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgrWVeoG5divdE8....
justincormack 12y ago
Both Sweden and Norway publish everyone's tax payments.
- yxhuvud 12y ago
  We do, but it takes quite a bit of work to actually look it up for someone.
  - rebyn 12y ago
    Still better than nothing :).
- bjourne 12y ago
  Yes, but the numbers are always delayed two years. So today, I could look up what someone paid in tax in 2013 if I wanted. But it's just the total taxation amount for that year and doesnt tell you anything in detal. So if you had that number you could roughly estimate what someone earned by dividing with about 32% (the median tax rate). But due to tax deductions, sick days, vacation, pension fund deposits etc your salary guess would be very fuzzy.
bsimpson 12y ago
You mean, like Glassdoor?
daigoba66 12y ago
It's a bit older, but an interesting take on open salaries: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000038.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000038.html
rcxdude 12y ago
I know of at least two companies (in the UK) which do this. They are fairly small companies, however.

foolinaround 12y ago

there is a need for some tool similar to glassdoor that can verify the authencity of the info posted by a user (email address, position, etc) that can be used reliably by others to confidently share salaries without retribution.

RankingMember 12y ago
I had a similar thought with regard to verifying employment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8204401 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8204401 Maybe we're on to something.
- foolinaround 12y ago
  so, basically, a person signs up with some site with high degree of identification ( ssn, state id, email id, office id card, whatever, depending on the situation ). So, his identity with the central site is intact. Then, this person creates a throwaway id for this particular posting, and this throwaway cannot be openly linked back to the person, by anyone other than the site itself. The weakness of course is in the central site. And to solve this problem, there are a few decentralized trust solutions
  - RankingMember 12y ago
    I like this. The vulnerability lies with the verifying site, so it would need to be crazy secure. Know any seasoned web developers with some crypto knowledge?
tbyehl 12y ago
Companies are giving this information to Equifax, just not for the benefit of subjects... https://www.theworknumber.com/ https://www.theworknumber.com/

protomyth 12y ago

I was at a company[1] where all the bill rates for a consultant heavy project got leaked by bad permissions on documents. I didn't think much of it at the time because I knew my bill rate (my share was a %). There were a two groups of pretty ticked off people. The employees who were "underpaid"[2] and the consultants who didn't know their bill rate[3]. It is an odd example of what happens when every knows what the company values them at. 1) no longer around in the form they were, but still not saying 2) truthfully, some of the consultant bill rates given the other expenses like taxes & insurance were not that far off the equivalent employee salary - particularly the H1B body shops 3) I think some were getting paid about 25% of their bill rate

thatusertwo 12y ago
25% sounds about right.
- protomyth 12y ago
  If you're getting 25% as a consultant and not an H1B, then you probably should go through someone else. That is pretty pathetic.

protomyth 12y ago

"The bill that would cover the rest of workers is the Paycheck Fairness Act. The law would both strengthen penalties to employers who retaliate against workers for discussing pay and require employers to provide a justification for wage differentials." I'm cool with the first part. Information makes the free market better. The second part is problematic and will just add paperwork with about as much hope of being honest as the justification body shops use to get H1Bs instead of local workers.

Iv 12y ago

I work for more than a decade now and I still am unsure about what rule to follow. Here are a few things that I have seen happening: I once believed in transparency about that. I told my salary to a friend I just helped to get hired in the company where I already had a few years of experience. Upon hearing my higher salary, he immediately went to my boss to ask for a raise. Due to an incredible incompetence of the HR department, I once saw the salary of a lot of different people in the 30 people company I was part of. I was not shocked by the 2-3x that a senior developer was making compared to me. I was shocked to see that our CEO had the highest salary (5x to 6x) for the job he did. That was actually one of the element that made me consider resignation and freelancing. I think that one of the thing that hiding salaries causes is that it makes it impossible to talk about the cashflow of the company without people being able to compute if they are below or above average (and when the CEO earns the double everyone earns, the average will be pretty high) but it makes it harder for employees to understand what clients are important, what resources are available for a project, and so on.

raverbashing 12y ago
Well, do you know what has a bigger impact than seeing your coworker's salaries? Seeing how much the customers of your company are billed for the job you do.
- mgkimsal 12y ago
  Generally, agreed, at least the first time. I was being paid.. $17/hr and being billed out at $100/hr. I moved to a company starting at $22/hr, being billed out at $150-$175/hr. The 'hourly' was just a breakdown of salaried - sometimes worked more than 40hrs, never paid for it. And I also get that people aren't 100% billable, you have to build in downtime to the salary, etc. I get it. But I do know in one year I billed out about 1600 hours at at least $150/hr - asked for a $10k raise, and was denied. So I left. In some situations since then I appreciate the 'team' model a bit more - that's what I was pitched in my 'no raise' reply. "We're a team, etc" But in this particular project, I was doing 95% of the work. I trained my replacements during my notice, and a month later the client moved over to me anyway, because I literally was the project. Note to agency companies - don't ever let one large project become the sole domain of one employee. For various reasons, this is not good business.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

Jugurtha 12y ago

I was at a company once where they talked about it casually. The career path was clear, etc. You had your salary, and your bonus. The bonus is easy to compute: It was a percentage of how much the company charged the other company for the work you did. Like if the job you did that day cost $200k, you get 2k. But to get back on topic, I think everyone should take a look at a book called "Winning Through Intimidation" by Robert J. Ringer. The title is misleading. The content is "How not to be manipulated by people who use intimidation tactics, and here are the typical ones they use subtly so there's no way you could complain, and here's how to recognize what they're doing, and here's the way to deal with it".

serve_yay 12y ago
That does sound good, thanks for the tip.
- Jugurtha 12y ago
  You're welcome.

FigBug 12y ago

On a recent contract I took, the end client told me what they were paying for my services -- about 6x what I was getting paid. They were pretty annoyed, and I was threatened with legal action for discussing financial matters with an end client. I haven't heard from either side since December, so I'm guessing that contract is pretty much dead.

bsimpson 12y ago
IANAL, but I know people who went on to freelance directly for the client in similar situations.
- odonnellryan 12y ago
  Usually you sign some kind of non-compete, but I think it's bad business for the contracting company to follow through on it.
nraynaud 12y ago
I live in a country when employees are more protected, and my client told me: I'm ready to pay more so you get a higher salary. I didn't get a higher salary and left a few weeks later, anyways service at BigCo (230000 names in the phone book) was not my thing, I blew everybody away in the IT department by showing them SVN (it was before git), they were commissioning the development of a custom versioning system.
themystic_ca 12y ago
As a contractor, you do not enjoy the same kinds of protection that an employee does. Nor is discussing pay with the end client equivalent to discussing it with a fellow employee. Maybe if you had been discussing it with fellow contractor it might match some of what the article was talking about. I'm surprised that your contract did not include an NDA that prevented you from discussing this kind of information with the end client.
- FigBug 12y ago
  My contract did not specifically mention salary though it was argued it was covered by the general confidential information clause. I'm used to working for the government where salary is publicly available, so I didn't even think twice about mentioning it. It came up when we were reviewing another consultants report, and he had put his compensation in the report. I made a comment of surprise about how much he was being paid, which pretty much gave away I was getting less and they were paying more.

serve_yay 12y ago

I agree with the notion that not speaking about money generally benefits companies more than employees. But I have been in situations where people were speaking about it, and refused to say what I make, precisely because they were making so much less than me. Now when that happens, I try to steer the conversation towards things that I think might help them get what they deserve. Some people feel so lucky to get a job that they take whatever's on offer, then they end up feeling screwed later and don't know what to do.

swombat 12y ago

Here's the completely opposite angle... http://danieltenner.com/2015/01/23/fake-transparency/ http://danieltenner.com/2015/01/23/fake-transparency/ Complete salary transparency is what should be pursued, if at all possible.

crazy1van 12y ago

This article seems to basically say its already illegal to prohibit employees from discussing pay (NLRA 1935) and it is certainly illegal to pay someone less based on race or sex (Equal Pay Act, and others) but the solution to wage discrimination is pass more laws that make it illegal-er. I have a hard time buying this argument. If you are an employer despicable enough to systematically be paying women less just for being women, I don't think another redundant law is going to change your behavior. This seems like a feel good exercise. People still buy drugs? Pass another law that says trafficking drugs is super duper illegal. Another heinous murder? Make it extra illegal to murder someone. In fact, make it extra illegal to murder someone with a specific type of weapon. This stuff doesn't seem to matter. Drug dealers know they face stiff penalties if caught. People who have decided to murder another human really don't care if the penalties are higher if they use a gun versus a tire iron. And, misogynist employers aren't going to be swayed by yet another law that says treat all people the same regardless of sex, for reals this time.

throwaway217384 12y ago
I believe this sometimes happens because women are less likely to counter-offer and negotiate during the hiring process. It sucks.
- nawitus 12y ago
  So does that mean that companies would favour women as they can be paid less?
  - throwaway217384 12y ago
    Interesting question. I think many, men and women, are still biased against women because they believe they are catty and dramatic or are afraid of increased legal issues (lawsuits). These are obviously not reality either and it too sucks.
    - mistermann 12y ago
      Is "women are less likely to counter-offer and negotiate during the hiring process" obviously not reality also? (Serious question.)

throwaway217384 12y ago

I work for a smaller software company (~25 employees) and basically manage all things IT (internal business IT and software development). I'm responsible for the IT budget, our software developer salaries are the single largest company "expense". When I started several years ago it came to my attention that the existing developers and IT staff were drastically underpaid (there was one other internal developer, an internal IT guy, myself, and a few outside contractors). I brought it to the attention of my bosses (managing partners) and have made it my goal to bring other developers salaries up to par. When I was hired I was making almost double what the other two were. I realized one of the biggest risks to the company was if either one of them decided to look across the street and find they could probably get a 40% raise on the spot. If they left a lot of knowledge and investment would walk out the door. Over that past few years we've weened ourselves off the contractors/consultants and have hired internally. We are now at ~8 developers. In order to hire the more recent developers we've had to offer market rate salaries. During reviews and hiring I've always told employees not to discuss their salary, mostly for psychological reasons. No matter what someone will feel bad. "What if you make more than them? They might not think you're worth more than them. Causing tension and friction. What if they make more that you? Same thing." I know that some have discussed it salary with others. At times it ticks me off.. makes me want to ensure they aren't lying by reducing their or withholding their next raise. (Please note that's a immediate gut reaction and I throw it out the window) quickly. I'm happy to report, after much effort, I've been able to show the managing partners again this year that some developers still need larger than COLA raises (some should get 20%, 15%, 10% and most 5%). They are weary but I think they finally understand the importance of this. We do reviews and raises in a few months, and when I sit down with them I will still insist on not talking about salary or raise (amount/percent) and use the same explanation as before. Yes, no one wants to be taken advantage of and the easiest way we think about doing that is salary transparency. That would work great in a world were psychology and subjectiveness didn't exist. I tend to be a very logical, analytical, rational personal. And as much as I hate office politics, emotions getting in the way, and having to hack psychology, they exist and as the logical, analytical, and rational person I think I am those things must be factored into going about things.

throwaway217384 12y ago

bsimpson 12y ago

I'm currently working as a temp at a well-known institution. (I'm getting paid a healthy hourly rate for what would easily be a salaried position if I was on staff.) It's effectively freelancing, but I had to join an agency to satisfy this corporation's bureaucracy. It's in my contract with the agency that the rate they pay me is confidential, to be discussed with no one. Is that also illegal?

throwaway217384 12y ago
Probably depends on your jurisdiction. Some might say you're breaking your contract in doing so. I wonder if you could get in trouble by disclosing that "I'm paid approximately between $25 and $30 per hour."

asgard1024 12y ago

> When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid' You say, "Are you ashamed of how much you pay me?", and start looking for another job.

maayank 12y ago
"no, but your kind of talent is so valuable I pay you more than others and the awkwardness would hurt everybody"
- enraged_camel 12y ago
  Yeah, I agree. I used to believe that employers are being malicious and selfish when they hide salary details (and maybe some are), but over the years I've come to realize that most employees are simply too immature to accept that they may not actually be as valuable/important as they think. I personally wouldn't want to deal with all the awkwardness and drama introduced into the workplace even if it resulted in a 10-15% pay raise for me (although that's just me).

bithush 12y ago

In my opinion salary information should not be kept a secret except on personal request. Openness in pay, responsibilities and performance[0] leads to a far healthier company in my opinion and experience. That is not to say you stick the salary information out in the open in a database for all to check at will but during [pay] reviews I feel it is important to be able to see how much you earn compared to your direct colleagues. This is also good for a company as it means they actively working towards equality. [0] This is obviously quite difficult because performance can be very tricky to measure fairly and can cause problems in comparisons to other positions. The same is true of performance related bonuses which I am fine with keeping private.

enraged_camel 12y ago
I wonder if the data could be displayed anonymously, i.e. "your salary is 80th percentile in your department" or something like that. It would give you the information without disclosing how much each individual makes.
- Terr_ 12y ago
  > i.e. "your salary is 80th percentile in your department" or something like that. Too little information: There could be 90 people paid peanuts and 10 people paid lavishly, and even in the same "department" some jobs might be radically different.

gambiting 12y ago

I work for a large games developer(one of the largest ones in the world in fact), and the salaries are completely taboo. No one will say how much they are paid, no one will say what bonuses they've got, nothing. When I asked the HR manager what I can expect to be making if I advance higher up, the answer was "that depends", and when I asked for an estimate they said they can't give one. I absolutely love the job, it's the best thing ever - but I honestly don't understand the salary secrecy.

paulhauggis 12y ago

If all salary was displayed publicly it wouldn't help the employee. It would take almost all negotiating abilities away (a senior developer with 5 years of experience will be paid the same rate as a senior developer with 10 years because companies don't want unhappy employees and people with the same titles will be upset they are not paid the same rate) and allow many companies to legally collude and pay similar rates (which will be the lowest they can get away with). For the individual, not having public salary works great because you really do have negotiating power. I no longer work for anyone, but when I did, I would regularly ask for a higher wage at my next company for essentially the same position. If my next company knows that all other companies in the industry are paying 20% less for my position, why would they pay me more? I've also heard stories from Sweden where larger companies will pull tax returns of the other companies (and employees) they are doing business with and will base their contracts on this information being a regular practice(giving lower rates because they know the company is making more money. Or even not dealing with the company at all because they are so small). I've never understood why smart people want to willingly give the more powerful in this world even more tools that will work against them.

Udik 12y ago
I agree. When salaries are not public, there is just one factor that influences them, that is, the value that the company puts on that employee and the fear of losing him/ her to a better offer. On the other hand, it's much easier for the company to reject a request for a pay rise because it might upset other employees. Note, this mechanism only works downwards: the company will never give a pay rise to nine employees on the grounds that the tenth already has a higher salary.
- tbrownaw 12y ago
  Note, this mechanism only works downwards: the company will never give a pay rise to nine employees on the grounds that the tenth already has a higher salary. You assume the outlier will always be at the high end. What happens when instead of one person being paid much more than everyone else, it's one person that's paid much less than everyone else?
12y ago

baby 12y ago

Take a look at buffer: https://open.bufferapp.com/introducing-open-salaries-at-buffer-including-our-transparent-formula-and-all-individual-salaries/ https://open.bufferapp.com/introducing-open-salaries-at-buff... all salaries are public in a spreadsheet. _YOU_ can see what everyone is getting paid. I think it's pretty interesting.

odonnellryan 12y ago
Does this include bonuses?
- baby 12y ago
  I have no idea. I got interested by their "culture" but didn't dig that far in the "paycheck" realm.
  - odonnellryan 12y ago
    Ahhh. I just see the CEO pay as being "little." I mean, a good dev can earn that much. I know several ~30 person companies where the CEO/owner is making at least 1mil a year after bonuses. It's insane. I'd love to see what you linked more often - highest salary (they did start the company) but not by a factor of 10! So it just got me curious.

Havoc 12y ago

At my previous work it was pretty much an open secret. Plus there was lots of trust & the progression was pretty predictable so you could pretty much ask someone straight what they were earning.

nickbauman 12y ago

Didn't everyone work this issue out when they first entered the work force? Soon after I got my first job out of college my employer told me it was "not a good idea to talk about your compensation" with my co-workers. You know how they say "consider the source" when you get information? Why would my employer not want me to share my compensation with my co-workers? _Because it benefits them_ if their workforce is oblivious about who is getting paid what. Make no mistake: sharing compensation information freely among your colleagues is, to most employers, the thin edge of a long wedge towards organized labor. Personally, I would do it more often if people weren't so freaked out about it. So the bosses have waged a good campaign: it's a social norm.

sxp 12y ago
If you know the salary of the people you're directly working with, things can get awkward. One alternative is to discuss salary with people who are sufficiently distant from your daily work but are expected to be making the same amount as you. For large companies, this would be people in different divisions who have the same title and years of experience. For small companies, you will probably need to talk to people in other companies. In my first job out of college, I knew the range of salaries people were earning for entry level software positions because I had discussed this with friends. I negotiated a 10% raise to my first company's starting salary because I used my friends' salaries as a benchmark.
- tbrownaw 12y ago
  If you know the salary of the people you're directly working with, things can get awkward. One alternative is to discuss salary with people who are sufficiently distant from your daily work What about things like everyone writing down how much they make and putting it in a hat? Everyone gets all the numbers and how they compare with everyone else, but doesn't know which other number goes with which person.
  - speik 12y ago
    But within a certain range, I really only care what someone in a similar position to me is making.

eyeareque 12y ago

I would be happy if my boss told me this... it would mean that I am getting paid higher than the norm.

readme 12y ago
That makes no sense. It could also be because he is paying you less. You should read the article.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
Devthrowaway80 12y ago
That's a rather optimistic take on it.

Animats 12y ago

What we need in the US is tough enforcement of the existing labor laws. The Wage and Hour Act, classification of employees vs contractors, and the right to organize are all in US law, but the penalties are weak. Did you know that you have the legal right in the US to organize a union whether your employer likes it or not? In Canada, those rights have more teeth, and that alone produces much higher unionization.

NegativeK 12y ago
Wal-Mart closes stores when unionization gains momentum. Pizza Hut (hearsay) has an undocumented policy of "fire people who talk about unions." When you're pulling near minimum wage, losing your job over labor laws isn't very appealing. I believe Chick-fil-A put wage discussions as fireable in my paperwork, as have other tech companies. Some of the people who need unions the most can't get them, as the Labor Board hasn't enough teeth and the public isn't very favorable toward unions.

hackaflocka 12y ago

I think when your boss tells you that, the proper response would be to write an op-ed about it on Medium, while blending in themes of Paternalism, The Patriarchy, Feminism, Mansplaining, Manterrupting and Sea Lioning.

varelse 12y ago

IMO there is every incentive for employees to compare salaries (except at startups where total compensation is directly proportional to how much risk you took to get there). Everything below is about 1000+ or so employee well-established companies so salary ladders should long since have become consistent. If you find out you're making more, question why your co-worker is making so much less. It could be you the next round. If you find out you're making substantially less, you can try bringing it up with your boss, but your boss will likely channel that to HR and then HR will tell you why you aren't worth any more than your current salary (that's their purpose in this situation, don't fool yourself otherwise). However, if you use this information as a sign that you should go interview to determine your market rate, and you get a better offer somewhere else, you can now use that as leverage against your current employer. If they need you, they'll match the offer, and your compensation problems will go away for the next few years. At some companies, this is the easiest path to a raise despite the negative perception of "accepting the counter." If they won't match the offer, then that's a great sign that it's time to leave. IMO you should treat your job choices as an asset. If that asset starts lagging the market, you need to invest in another one.

geebee 12y ago

I'm generally in favor of making information public. I work for a public university, and my salary is public info, so is everyone else's. The sky hasn't fallen. Real estate transactions tend to be public as well. I can look up how much the house down the street sold for. Imagine if this information were not public, but a few insiders were able to get at it. They'd have a monumental advantage over everyone else. That's kind of the position employers are in relative to employees. One angle on this - I think that any employer that uses the H1B or other worker visas should be obligated to share compensation information for all workers (not just the visa recipients), the same way public universities and government organizations are required to. That means name, job title, and total yearly compensation.

curiously 12y ago

I had co-workers tell me 'its rude to share salaries'. This tech company in Vancouver was well known to pay the lowest salary in North America and excruciating overtime. I always find it amusing how hard people will fight over something so small, when there's so little to gain, people will work so hard for it.

nurettin 12y ago

There will always be people who think "that guy sits around all day and earns twice as much as me while I work my ass off" rightfully or out of ignorance. This puts the boss/dept. manager in a weak position.

Retra 12y ago
Don't hire morons then? I mean, if employees can hurt your business just by knowing how it works, then you're fucked anyway.

thrway20150124 12y ago

Throwaway account for various reasons... There's social norms that make many people feel uncomfortable talking about money. One of the big ones being jealously. Either you being jealous of other people's success, or vice-versa. Be sheer luck, when I entered the tech workforce some 30 years ago, I developed a close group of friends, also in tech, and we would be open about our compensation and help each other with negotiation. I cannot overstate how valuable each of us have found that. There's two big reasons: First, starting a new job (or sometimes asking for a raise) is a big life change. There's a big emotional element & it's hard to be rational. Having people you trust who have your best interest at heart but do not have their thoughts clouded by emotion is huge. Second, negotiating is hard for most people, especially if you don't have much experience in it. Talking strategy & approach as a group gives everyone more experience, and there's the added benefit you guy in knowing you're not crazy. You're less likely to have doubt & more likely to stick to your guns. Throughout the years, each of has leapfrogged each other multiple times. The guy making the least suddenly becomes the guy making the most. When that happens pretty much everyone is happy/excited. The general view is "hey, now we now there's more out there!" The realization is that it's not us against each other, but us against everyone else. The more the group collectively makes, the better.