3 ms·

"It also happens to be as hard or harder than most other types of software engineering." I would disagree with this point, as evidenced by the fact that people

"It also happens to be as hard or harder than most other types of software engineering." I would disagree with this point, as evidenced by the fact that people coming out of code schools are still getting hired. To do software engineering in other fields (financial, embedded systems, game dev, operating systems, enterprise LOB, cloud platform, crypto, big data/distributed systems, etc) takes a lot more experience and training. A competent programmer can crank out a rails based Mom & Pop small business site in less than a day. You can't really crank out Big Table, or Unreal Engine. However, the market size for small business web sites vastly exceeds that for Big Table.

vinceguidry 12y ago
It's a steep cliff. Everyone says the barrier to entry is low, and it is, but there's a ginormous difference between Mom & Pop site and something suitable for even a small business. E-commerce is sorta simple, but the constant need for third-party integrations will bury you if you don't work hard to keep everything simple. And the demand for those integrations just keeps coming. There's also a much larger number of technologies you have to work with. With financial, embedded, game dev, OS, crypto, big data, you have a finite number of languages / tools to learn, once you learn them, you spend the rest of your career perfecting them. With web dev, you have to not only perfect your tools, but constantly integrate new tools and languages and paradigms into your workflow. It's a lot harder than it looks to do well. And just because code school grads are getting hired doesn't mean they're making useful contributions from day one. Guaranteed it'll be some time before they're really worth their salary.
- jghn 12y ago
  "With financial, embedded, game dev, OS, crypto, big data, you have a finite number of languages / tools to learn, once you learn them, you spend the rest of your career perfecting them" Uh, no. I thought the initial statement was absurd, but doubling down here isn't helping.
  - vinceguidry 12y ago
    Your dismissiveness is noted.
  - Mandatum 12y ago
    He does raise a good point that web is a much faster moving, changing environment to a lot of those he mentioned.
  - jghn 12y ago
    Perhaps faster, but not much faster. Anecdotally, as a non-web developer I don't find myself fiddling w/ new stuff all that much less than my web dev friends. edit: Ack, replied to wrong post. This was to Mandatum
atmosx 12y ago
> A competent programmer can crank out a rails based Mom & Pop small business site in less than a day. I never wrote any code in C, but given a tutorial I'm pretty sure I could create a client-server application to exchange time in milliseconds between two hosts. Would you use it instead of your NTPd daemon in a production server? Of course you wouldn't. Likewise, I'm very sceptical when I read about programmers who learned Javascript in a weekend or wrote a rails application in one week without knowing Ruby. Is it possible yes? Do I trust the app or the programmer absolutely not. Web development is not considered programming by friends of mine that indulge themselves in (linux) kernel development, write (or try to write) code for drivers, do reverse engineering and what not. But to create a modern website these days you need to know lots of things: CSS3, HTML5, Rails, Ruby, Javascript (Angnular? Ember?), you also need to know how to combine them. How to setup everything in order to mitigate attacks, etc. Ruby and Rails are easy to learn but hard to master, same goes for JS (with all the whistles and bells that the language comes and the various frameworks try to elude one way or another). There's also Go, Python, PHP... Same goes for all these languages: Easy to learn hard to master. So, any language can be hard or easy depending on a wide variety of things, but web-dev is not easy these days. It's easy to be mediocre, it's not easy to be good.
- bryanlarsen 12y ago
  Having done both for a living, I would argue that Linux driver development is easier than web dev. To do either well, you have to have a model in your head of what the entire stack is doing. With Linux driver development, you have to have a much more accurate model of a much smaller stack compared to web dev. Broad or deep? Specialist or Generalist? Some people are better at one than the other, but others will be the opposite.
  - citibank 12y ago
    Citi Bank United Kingdom 14th Of January 2015 3 Hanover Square, London W1S 1HD, United Kingdom Tél. :+(44)7024029803 Fax : +(44)7024053618 http://www.citibank.co.uk/ http://www.citibank.co.uk/ You Are Hereby Notified That Your Inheritance/Contract Payment Of £12,500 000 (Twelve Million Five Hundred Thousand Great British Pounds) Has Been Approved To Be Made To You Through Central Bank ATM Visa Master Card. Due to Fraud and E-mails from different Agencies without making the delivery to the rightful owners of the ATM Card We have decided to make the distribution to every individuals that was nominated as a Beneficiary by The Government Body of United Nation as a redeemable way of making life better due to the Economy Recession. and we shall send you the Certificate of deosit for you to go through it as well You are to make available a details of Western Union or Money Gram of £3,300 for Shipment and Insurance Handling of your ATM Parcel DHL Courier Services and UPS Services. The Security Fees of £3,300 must be paid to be safe during the transaction and from unwarranted Bills from our client. After the Security Payment is paid Your ATM Card will be made available to you through your information you posted to us within 8 days because as soon as we received your information The Bank will inscribe your information on your ATM Card and send you your Operating Codes Via Alert on your Phone for Privacy and the card will be dispatch to you immediately. A certificate shall be issued to you to present to your Local Bank as a form of Identities and Recognitions as the bearer of the Funds. For your information you are advised to call me to know your Funds Manager before you start making any payment call us through the Phone Number below. You Are Advised To Re-Confirm To Us The Below Information Or Call Me Immediately For More Details: +(44)7024029803 You can E-mail here: (orabank24@gmail.com) 1. Full Name: 2. Phone & Fax Number: 3. Address Were the ATM Card will be posted to (P.O Box Not Acceptable) 4. Bank Coordinate: 5. Sex/Age: 6. Status & Occupation: 7. Country: Best Regards Brian McAreavey, CEO- Citibank Plc. Phone Number: +(44)7024029803 +(44)7024053618
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
citibank 12y ago
Citi Bank United Kingdom 14th Of January 2015 3 Hanover Square, London W1S 1HD, United Kingdom Tél. :+(44)7024029803 Fax : +(44)7024053618 http://www.citibank.co.uk/ http://www.citibank.co.uk/ You Are Hereby Notified That Your Inheritance/Contract Payment Of £12,500 000 (Twelve Million Five Hundred Thousand Great British Pounds) Has Been Approved To Be Made To You Through Central Bank ATM Visa Master Card. Due to Fraud and E-mails from different Agencies without making the delivery to the rightful owners of the ATM Card We have decided to make the distribution to every individuals that was nominated as a Beneficiary by The Government Body of United Nation as a redeemable way of making life better due to the Economy Recession. and we shall send you the Certificate of deosit for you to go through it as well You are to make available a details of Western Union or Money Gram of £3,300 for Shipment and Insurance Handling of your ATM Parcel DHL Courier Services and UPS Services. The Security Fees of £3,300 must be paid to be safe during the transaction and from unwarranted Bills from our client. After the Security Payment is paid Your ATM Card will be made available to you through your information you posted to us within 8 days because as soon as we received your information The Bank will inscribe your information on your ATM Card and send you your Operating Codes Via Alert on your Phone for Privacy and the card will be dispatch to you immediately. A certificate shall be issued to you to present to your Local Bank as a form of Identities and Recognitions as the bearer of the Funds. For your information you are advised to call me to know your Funds Manager before you start making any payment call us through the Phone Number below. You Are Advised To Re-Confirm To Us The Below Information Or Call Me Immediately For More Details: +(44)7024029803 You can E-mail here: (orabank24@gmail.com) 1. Full Name: 2. Phone & Fax Number: 3. Address Were the ATM Card will be posted to (P.O Box Not Acceptable) 4. Bank Coordinate: 5. Sex/Age: 6. Status & Occupation: 7. Country: Best Regards Brian McAreavey, CEO- Citibank Plc. Phone Number: +(44)7024029803 +(44)7024053618

vinceguidry 12y ago

It's a steep cliff. Everyone says the barrier to entry is low, and it is, but there's a ginormous difference between Mom & Pop site and something suitable for even a small business. E-commerce is sorta simple, but the constant need for third-party integrations will bury you if you don't work hard to keep everything simple. And the demand for those integrations just keeps coming. There's also a much larger number of technologies you have to work with. With financial, embedded, game dev, OS, crypto, big data, you have a finite number of languages / tools to learn, once you learn them, you spend the rest of your career perfecting them. With web dev, you have to not only perfect your tools, but constantly integrate new tools and languages and paradigms into your workflow. It's a lot harder than it looks to do well. And just because code school grads are getting hired doesn't mean they're making useful contributions from day one. Guaranteed it'll be some time before they're really worth their salary.

jghn 12y ago
"With financial, embedded, game dev, OS, crypto, big data, you have a finite number of languages / tools to learn, once you learn them, you spend the rest of your career perfecting them" Uh, no. I thought the initial statement was absurd, but doubling down here isn't helping.
- vinceguidry 12y ago
  Your dismissiveness is noted.
- Mandatum 12y ago
  He does raise a good point that web is a much faster moving, changing environment to a lot of those he mentioned.
- jghn 12y ago
  Perhaps faster, but not much faster. Anecdotally, as a non-web developer I don't find myself fiddling w/ new stuff all that much less than my web dev friends. edit: Ack, replied to wrong post. This was to Mandatum

atmosx 12y ago

> A competent programmer can crank out a rails based Mom & Pop small business site in less than a day. I never wrote any code in C, but given a tutorial I'm pretty sure I could create a client-server application to exchange time in milliseconds between two hosts. Would you use it instead of your NTPd daemon in a production server? Of course you wouldn't. Likewise, I'm very sceptical when I read about programmers who learned Javascript in a weekend or wrote a rails application in one week without knowing Ruby. Is it possible yes? Do I trust the app or the programmer absolutely not. Web development is not considered programming by friends of mine that indulge themselves in (linux) kernel development, write (or try to write) code for drivers, do reverse engineering and what not. But to create a modern website these days you need to know lots of things: CSS3, HTML5, Rails, Ruby, Javascript (Angnular? Ember?), you also need to know how to combine them. How to setup everything in order to mitigate attacks, etc. Ruby and Rails are easy to learn but hard to master, same goes for JS (with all the whistles and bells that the language comes and the various frameworks try to elude one way or another). There's also Go, Python, PHP... Same goes for all these languages: Easy to learn hard to master. So, any language can be hard or easy depending on a wide variety of things, but web-dev is not easy these days. It's easy to be mediocre, it's not easy to be good.

bryanlarsen 12y ago
Having done both for a living, I would argue that Linux driver development is easier than web dev. To do either well, you have to have a model in your head of what the entire stack is doing. With Linux driver development, you have to have a much more accurate model of a much smaller stack compared to web dev. Broad or deep? Specialist or Generalist? Some people are better at one than the other, but others will be the opposite.
- citibank 12y ago
  Citi Bank United Kingdom 14th Of January 2015 3 Hanover Square, London W1S 1HD, United Kingdom Tél. :+(44)7024029803 Fax : +(44)7024053618 http://www.citibank.co.uk/ http://www.citibank.co.uk/ You Are Hereby Notified That Your Inheritance/Contract Payment Of £12,500 000 (Twelve Million Five Hundred Thousand Great British Pounds) Has Been Approved To Be Made To You Through Central Bank ATM Visa Master Card. Due to Fraud and E-mails from different Agencies without making the delivery to the rightful owners of the ATM Card We have decided to make the distribution to every individuals that was nominated as a Beneficiary by The Government Body of United Nation as a redeemable way of making life better due to the Economy Recession. and we shall send you the Certificate of deosit for you to go through it as well You are to make available a details of Western Union or Money Gram of £3,300 for Shipment and Insurance Handling of your ATM Parcel DHL Courier Services and UPS Services. The Security Fees of £3,300 must be paid to be safe during the transaction and from unwarranted Bills from our client. After the Security Payment is paid Your ATM Card will be made available to you through your information you posted to us within 8 days because as soon as we received your information The Bank will inscribe your information on your ATM Card and send you your Operating Codes Via Alert on your Phone for Privacy and the card will be dispatch to you immediately. A certificate shall be issued to you to present to your Local Bank as a form of Identities and Recognitions as the bearer of the Funds. For your information you are advised to call me to know your Funds Manager before you start making any payment call us through the Phone Number below. You Are Advised To Re-Confirm To Us The Below Information Or Call Me Immediately For More Details: +(44)7024029803 You can E-mail here: (orabank24@gmail.com) 1. Full Name: 2. Phone & Fax Number: 3. Address Were the ATM Card will be posted to (P.O Box Not Acceptable) 4. Bank Coordinate: 5. Sex/Age: 6. Status & Occupation: 7. Country: Best Regards Brian McAreavey, CEO- Citibank Plc. Phone Number: +(44)7024029803 +(44)7024053618

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

citibank 12y ago

Citi Bank United Kingdom 14th Of January 2015 3 Hanover Square, London W1S 1HD, United Kingdom Tél. :+(44)7024029803 Fax : +(44)7024053618 http://www.citibank.co.uk/ http://www.citibank.co.uk/ You Are Hereby Notified That Your Inheritance/Contract Payment Of £12,500 000 (Twelve Million Five Hundred Thousand Great British Pounds) Has Been Approved To Be Made To You Through Central Bank ATM Visa Master Card. Due to Fraud and E-mails from different Agencies without making the delivery to the rightful owners of the ATM Card We have decided to make the distribution to every individuals that was nominated as a Beneficiary by The Government Body of United Nation as a redeemable way of making life better due to the Economy Recession. and we shall send you the Certificate of deosit for you to go through it as well You are to make available a details of Western Union or Money Gram of £3,300 for Shipment and Insurance Handling of your ATM Parcel DHL Courier Services and UPS Services. The Security Fees of £3,300 must be paid to be safe during the transaction and from unwarranted Bills from our client. After the Security Payment is paid Your ATM Card will be made available to you through your information you posted to us within 8 days because as soon as we received your information The Bank will inscribe your information on your ATM Card and send you your Operating Codes Via Alert on your Phone for Privacy and the card will be dispatch to you immediately. A certificate shall be issued to you to present to your Local Bank as a form of Identities and Recognitions as the bearer of the Funds. For your information you are advised to call me to know your Funds Manager before you start making any payment call us through the Phone Number below. You Are Advised To Re-Confirm To Us The Below Information Or Call Me Immediately For More Details: +(44)7024029803 You can E-mail here: (orabank24@gmail.com) 1. Full Name: 2. Phone & Fax Number: 3. Address Were the ATM Card will be posted to (P.O Box Not Acceptable) 4. Bank Coordinate: 5. Sex/Age: 6. Status & Occupation: 7. Country: Best Regards Brian McAreavey, CEO- Citibank Plc. Phone Number: +(44)7024029803 +(44)7024053618