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I thought the "unintended acceleration" was proven to have been due to older drivers who got confused?

by cbd1984 12y ago

matt4077 12y ago
Well, Toyota probably has the better PR team (and more of an interest in getting it's message out). It appears as if neither theory has ever been proven. The slides argue that the standard of evidence in civil proceedings is simply "more likely than not" and not "beyond reasonable doubt". Reading between the lines, I think this expert witness is arguing that anybody who writes code this terrible for a safety-critical application deserves to pay through the nose, irregardless of the actual chain of events.
ArkyBeagle 12y ago
The Micheal Barr Group was selected to analyze the Toyota controller code. They've filed online reports you can read.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
bigtones 12y ago
The example he gave was a young police officer who was a very experienced driver, and had a passenger call 911 in a panic while he was unable to stop the car with his foot firmly planted on the brake - and it ended up killing all four occupants. That negates the 'old people can't drive properly' theory.
- lnanek2 12y ago
  Although in Toyota's defense the officer was too clueless to know he just had to hold the start button down for three seconds to turn off the ignition.
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    That's got to be the worst ever user interface. Press the START button to turn OFF the ignition? That's not accidental that's malicious, especially in an emergency situation. Have you ever seen a chunk of industrial machinery? Those big red mushroom buttons are the emergency shutdowns and they don't take 'three seconds' are not labeled 'start' for extra confusion in times of panic.
    - gizmo686 12y ago
      In push to start cars, holding down the start button is the normal way to turn them off, so it is not unreasonable to attempt to do so for an emergency shutdown. Having said that, I would like an emergency stop button in cars (preferably one that works indepenently of the onboard computer).
      - afarrell 12y ago
        It's certainly a reasonable thing to try, but as as your aunt eropple notes, an emergency shutoff should be something so obvious that a person in fear for his life would think of it.
        FeeTinesAMady 12y ago
        Such as an ignition switch which you turn to the left to physically cut power to the ignition system, like we used to have back when cars weren't so overcomplex.
  - eropple 12y ago
    "Too clueless," or scared for his life? I mean...geez.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
  - ddingus 12y ago
    Three seconds is a very long time... Maybe just go with one of these http://thetimedok.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/big-red-button.jpg http://thetimedok.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/big-red-button...
ubernostrum 12y ago
One of the interesting slides points out that a failsafe in the system wouldn't actually work if the driver was pumping the brakes. Drivers who are used to anti-lock braking systems -- i.e., younger drivers -- probably will not pump the brakes, but drivers who learned on cars which didn't have anti-lock brakes -- older drivers -- are probably more likely to do so. Which could account for some of the alleged age discrepancies, beyond the incident involving the police officer, which cannot be blamed on age/confusion.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  Is it known why he did not turn off the ignition?
  - ufo 12y ago
    According to mr. Koopman's presentation, turning off the ignition turns of the steering assist and would be a bad idea. The recommended workaround would be to shift to neutral.
  - jccooper 12y ago
    Apparently it was one of those "push button" ignition systems, which you have to hold down for three seconds to kill while in motion. Probably the driver didn't know that, or didn't hold the button long enough in a highly stressful situation. The "old-fashioned" key ignition would have provided a much clearer interface to killing the engine. As would shifting into neutral, which is the obvious other option; dunno if there was a reason that wouldn't work.
FeeTinesAMady 12y ago
The Audi 5000 unintended acceleration in the 80s was shown to be that.
bb_wordsmith 12y ago
No it is not. But one physicist, Dr.Ron Belt, has published some papers that may explain the reason for the skew toward older drivers among SUA victims. Basically, he says that their driving habits tend to deplete batteries, and the resulting unstable electrical supply shared by loaded cars and their ECUs can tend to set off software glitches in poorly written code. The pedal confusion theory is often used as a defense by automakers but it has been discredited.

I thought the "unintended acceleration" was proven to have been due to older drivers who got confused?

by cbd1984 12y ago

I thought the "unintended acceleration" was proven to have been due to older drivers who got confused?

Well, Toyota probably has the better PR team (and more of an interest in getting it's message out). It appears as if neither theory has ever been proven. The slides argue that the standard of evidence in civil proceedings is simply "more likely than not" and not "beyond reasonable doubt". Reading between the lines, I think this expert witness is arguing that anybody who writes code this terrible for a safety-critical application deserves to pay through the nose, irregardless of the actual chain of events.

ArkyBeagle 12y ago

The Micheal Barr Group was selected to analyze the Toyota controller code. They've filed online reports you can read.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

bigtones 12y ago

The example he gave was a young police officer who was a very experienced driver, and had a passenger call 911 in a panic while he was unable to stop the car with his foot firmly planted on the brake - and it ended up killing all four occupants. That negates the 'old people can't drive properly' theory.

lnanek2 12y ago
Although in Toyota's defense the officer was too clueless to know he just had to hold the start button down for three seconds to turn off the ignition.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  That's got to be the worst ever user interface. Press the START button to turn OFF the ignition? That's not accidental that's malicious, especially in an emergency situation. Have you ever seen a chunk of industrial machinery? Those big red mushroom buttons are the emergency shutdowns and they don't take 'three seconds' are not labeled 'start' for extra confusion in times of panic.
  - gizmo686 12y ago
    In push to start cars, holding down the start button is the normal way to turn them off, so it is not unreasonable to attempt to do so for an emergency shutdown. Having said that, I would like an emergency stop button in cars (preferably one that works indepenently of the onboard computer).
    - afarrell 12y ago
      It's certainly a reasonable thing to try, but as as your aunt eropple notes, an emergency shutoff should be something so obvious that a person in fear for his life would think of it.
      - FeeTinesAMady 12y ago
        Such as an ignition switch which you turn to the left to physically cut power to the ignition system, like we used to have back when cars weren't so overcomplex.
- eropple 12y ago
  "Too clueless," or scared for his life? I mean...geez.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- ddingus 12y ago
  Three seconds is a very long time... Maybe just go with one of these http://thetimedok.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/big-red-button.jpg http://thetimedok.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/big-red-button...

ubernostrum 12y ago

One of the interesting slides points out that a failsafe in the system wouldn't actually work if the driver was pumping the brakes. Drivers who are used to anti-lock braking systems -- i.e., younger drivers -- probably will not pump the brakes, but drivers who learned on cars which didn't have anti-lock brakes -- older drivers -- are probably more likely to do so. Which could account for some of the alleged age discrepancies, beyond the incident involving the police officer, which cannot be blamed on age/confusion.

jacquesm 12y ago
Is it known why he did not turn off the ignition?
- ufo 12y ago
  According to mr. Koopman's presentation, turning off the ignition turns of the steering assist and would be a bad idea. The recommended workaround would be to shift to neutral.
- jccooper 12y ago
  Apparently it was one of those "push button" ignition systems, which you have to hold down for three seconds to kill while in motion. Probably the driver didn't know that, or didn't hold the button long enough in a highly stressful situation. The "old-fashioned" key ignition would have provided a much clearer interface to killing the engine. As would shifting into neutral, which is the obvious other option; dunno if there was a reason that wouldn't work.

FeeTinesAMady 12y ago

The Audi 5000 unintended acceleration in the 80s was shown to be that.

bb_wordsmith 12y ago

No it is not. But one physicist, Dr.Ron Belt, has published some papers that may explain the reason for the skew toward older drivers among SUA victims. Basically, he says that their driving habits tend to deplete batteries, and the resulting unstable electrical supply shared by loaded cars and their ECUs can tend to set off software glitches in poorly written code. The pedal confusion theory is often used as a defense by automakers but it has been discredited.