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Students Gain Access to Files on Admission to Stanford
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- 001sky 12y agoIf/once these become public record, does that create any legal issues for the university? Given how easy it is to twist informal speech like an e-mail out of context it does make ya wonder. A boderline-defamatory remark made public seems quite different something kept private.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- wavefunction 12y agoFERPA doesn't make them public records, it just allows a student to access their own educational records. I think a student could release their own records but that wouldn't fall under defamation from what I know.
- davidrusu 12y agoLooks like we've got something similar in Canada, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Information_Protection_and_Electronic_Documents_Act#Personal_Health_Information_Protection_Act_.28Ontario.29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Information_Protection... I'm excited to try it out at my university!
- fgblanch 12y agoAny source about which federal law is? or if it does apply to other universities such as MIT or Harvrad?
- mrbabbage 12y agoThe Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act, available at (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/20/1232g http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/20/1232g)
- freditup 12y agoYou can read about the law here: http://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/fpco/ferpa/students.html http://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/fpco/ferpa/students.html
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- clarkm 12y agoThe newsletter from The Fountain Hopper (who appears to have discovered this) has some more interesting details: When you apply to Stanford, your application gets assigned at least two admissions 'readers.' FoHo knows you get a third (specialized) reader if you're a legacy or a 'minority' (though we're not too sure how that's defined). We also think you get an additional reader if you're an athlete or development kid (i.e. you donated $$$). These readers (a mix of full-time admissions officers and seasonal hires) are tasked with reading thousands of applications in just a few weeks and distilling each of them into an concise, 300-ish word summary. http://us9.campaign-archive2.com/?u=c9d7a555374df02a66219b578&id=4f8b5e6fb4 http://us9.campaign-archive2.com/?u=c9d7a555374df02a66219b57...
- Alex3917 12y ago> FoHo knows you get a third (specialized) reader if you're a legacy or a 'minority' (though we're not too sure how that's defined). We also think you get an additional reader if you're an athlete or development kid (i.e. you donated $$$). This is how pretty much every major university does admissions, so not especially interesting. The one thing to note though is that athletes usually only get a boost if the coach actually goes to bat for them as part of the recruiting process, you're not going to get extra attention just because you played a sport.
- clarkm 12y agoUnless of course it's Caltech, which breaks both rules.
- stfu 12y agodevelopment kid (i.e. you donated $$$) Anyone got any numbers on that? What does it take to become a development kid...
- gcb0 12y agoif they get another reviewer for that category, i can guarantee you that all that person will do is open an excel sheet, order by donation amount per family, and write the position your family is at. So i doubt donating the minimum will do you any good.
- michaelochurch 12y agoThis has the potential to be really devastating, and not because of a few stray lawsuits (if that) that won't go anywhere. It threatens to put the most powerful brands in this society on trial. People understand that there's some socioeconomic corruption in the process, but still have the idea that admissions are 85-90 percent academic. If contrary information gets out there, it could have a major effect. What will be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in a very short amount of time is that the non-academic "character" component of admissions isn't "partly" socioeconomic but almost 100% socioeconomic. And that's a huge brand risk.
- rab_oof 12y agoSeems a bit conspiratorial sensationalist. There's probably some subtle bias (humans are fallible, impossible to be purely objective) common to reviewers that could be brought to light with large-scale stastical analysis. Admissions have a tough job because they are inundated with candidates that appear good but the signals of quality, if known, would tend to be easily simulated... Defeating their use.
- michaelochurch 12y agoI don't care that much what admissions offices do, to be frank about it. If they want to put bigoted "holistic"/nonacademic bullshit into their admissions processes, then that's about #43,207 on my concerns list. I don't have kids so I'm at least 18 years from this being my issue and the whole fucked-up mix will be different by then (better? worse? who knows?) I don't think the fault is mostly with the admissions offices themselves. The academic signals they get are not always reliable; high-school grades are hard to standardize, and the SAT is pretty preppable and doesn't go high enough on the math. (The SAT-M should have harder problems that extend it out to ~1000-1100. Or AMC/AIME scores can be given weight in admissions.) But right now, the SAT is too preppable and the relative lightness of academic merit in the admissions process isn't the officers' fault. They are, as you've noted, working with crummy data. In order to believe they're doing better than they would at a dartboard, they have to convince themselves to "see things" in a bunch of 17-year-old strangers. What would be of value is to reduce the importance of these brands in the world at-large. It's not that I give a damn either way about Stanford or what it does. I do think the pedigree whoring that has crept into "tech" has been to its detriment. Twenty years ago, Silicon Valley was much less pedigree-obsessed. You didn't need a Stanford degree to raise capital. These days, we see pedigree being the most important factor in the Valley determining who gets to be a founder and who is merely "Engineer #2" on 0.1% of a $5M company, and we see absolute shit founders like Spiegel and Duplan tapping into that private welfare system. A bit of reversion-to-truth in the power given to brands might be a good thing... not only for the world, but also for elite universities, which would be pushed in the direction of using academic merit again, because the mystique they get in admitting rich idiots and making admissions appear "holistic" would be blown. That would be good for them, because it would force them to admit better students.
- WBrentWilliams 12y agoIt would be interesting if a group of students applied for their applications en mass (say, the entire 2012 admitted class to a University in the US) and performed statistical analysis on the resulting data. I wonder if any great numbers of students would be willing to breach their privacy to allow such a study to be run.
- BorisMelnik 12y agoWould like to see this too. I'm sure they could do this without breaching their privacy, maybe have one person validate the data, then redact name, social, and other identifiable information.
- crm416 12y agoI'm a little confused--the article mentions that letters of recommendation must be turned over, but I believe that's only the case if the writer explicitly waived confidentiality (see http://www.naceweb.org/public/ferpa0808.htm http://www.naceweb.org/public/ferpa0808.htm).
- ig1 12y agoThis is pretty much standard practice in Europe. If you're storing/producing an information about an individual as an organization you have to operate on the assumption that the individual has a right to read it as in most cases they do.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- Symbiote 12y agoThe British implementation is called the Data Protection Act, which implements the EU Data Protection Directive. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Protection_Act_1998 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Protection_Act_1998 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Protection_Directive http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Protection_Directive Could Stanford just destroy these records after they've completed the admission process? Could a European university do that?
- learnstats2 12y agoAssuming the European university no longer has a need for the records, they are really supposed to destroy the personal data present, no?
- dom96 12y agoI currently attend a university in the UK and would like to request this information. But I'm not sure what the best way to do so is, who should I contact at my university (I presume the admissions department) and how should I request this information? Should I quote the Data Protection Act? Does anybody have experience doing this?
- gpanger 12y agoOkay so how do I get my file?!
- gwern 12y agohttp://us9.campaign-archive1.com/?u=c9d7a555374df02a66219b578&id=93a261f1d8 http://us9.campaign-archive1.com/?u=c9d7a555374df02a66219b57... Apparently you mail a letter to the Office of Undergraduate Admissions with strong language referring to FERPA.
- cjbarber 12y agoEven easier, you just submit a help ticket online (and they included copy-paste text templates)
- gwern 12y agoIf you're a Stanford student. I wouldn't want to try that for other schools.
- pikachu_is_cool 12y agoWhy not?
- gwern 12y agoBecause you have no idea if it'll work when you go through that system or be escalated to the right people, and you may not have access to such a system in the first place.
- tfang17 12y agoCurrent Stanford student here willing to answer any questions.
- foobarqux 12y agoHow did you approach the admissions process?
- tfang17 12y agoUhhh... go here: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/stanford-university/ http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/stanford-university/
- driverdan 12y agoHave you requested your records yet?
- tfang17 12y agoYup. It takes up to 45 days to come though.
- cjbarber 12y agoJust so you know, it looks like your account is shadow banned - all of your article submissions since 248 days ago show as [dead] (I have showdead on).
- rab_oof 12y agoFor grad school, working at the dept in which one would wish to enter is a popular, lower risk approach. The admissions for grad school tends to be either multi-tiered (uni & dept) or defers entirely to the department's admission folks. This tends to be one or two people for smaller programs. If they know you and you work in the same dept, you're probaly already friends by this time, so you'll at least have more intel on what's expected, if not some bias in your favor. (Former Stanford affliate here. Ask me anything.)
- WalterBright 12y ago> “The things they write, it’s clear that they never expect them to be read,” said the Fountain Hopper staff member. “They’re very frank.” I guess that'll now change. It'll become like what employers do when asked about a former employee's job performance - name, rank and serial number only. The admissions committee may also become closed door meetings, with nobody allowed to take written notes or minutes. Verbal only.
- driverdan 12y ago> I guess that'll now change. Why? So long as they don't do anything illegal in the selection process they shouldn't have to worry about anything. This is only for people who get accepted, not rejects.
- mc32 12y agoIt's not about doing illegal things but more to protect against perceived wrongs. Or someone or people just not being 'pc'. It's cone to the point where being frank can be a liability. That is it would remove possible hooks for people to hang perceived grievances
- barry-cotter 12y agoIf you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him. - Cardinal Richilieu Things that seemed perfectly innocent at the time can very easily come back to bite you on the ass later. Donating to the wrong political campaign (Brendan Eich), being a part of the wrong political party (the Hollywood Six), overestimating how fast public attitudes to sex will change (the 60's supporters of NAMBLA who found it expedient to renounce them later). If everything is anodyne consensus bullshit you can't blame anyone without blaming everyone. So all the real decisions get made somewhere there are no written/recorded notes.
- z2 12y agoWhat is the purpose of keeping records in the first place? Is it to see if admissions criteria is a good indicator of student success? Otherwise could schools, which may already destroy records after a certain number of years [1], shorten that period, say, to the autumn following admissions season? [1] Quick Google search shows USC keeping records for admitted students 5 years after last class taken: http://registrar.sc.edu/pdf/RecordsRetention2005.pdf http://registrar.sc.edu/pdf/RecordsRetention2005.pdf
- jacobolus 12y ago> At least one student has received the records, and said he was surprised by what he got back: several hundred pages, including a log of every time his electronic identification card had been used to unlock a door,[...] It seems totally unnecessary to indefinitely store every door swipe. Sure, store the swipes used to access the rare book room or the chemistry lab for 6 months or a year, but there’s no reason for every swipe into a dorm or dining hall to be permanently recorded. Some amount of time between a few days and a few weeks should be entirely sufficient for every reasonable purpose. I imagine if the systems that store all the ID swipe data got hacked, it would be possible to learn all kinds of things about students, including embarrassing secrets or enough info about movement patterns to ambush someone. [I guess this seems like a minor thing compared to records of people’s cell phone movements, internet traffic history, etc., but I think those should be deleted within a few days to a few weeks too.]
- clarkm 12y agoThis is one of the reasons that Richard Stallman refused to use his RFID card at MIT. If a door was locked, he would just tailgate someone in. Eventually CSAIL just gave him a key to a back door.
- gizmo686 12y agoMy university offers "Shabat" keys, as some students religiously object to using the RFIDs on Shabat (Friday night through Saturday), due to it being electronic.
- Shivetya 12y agoLook at it from this way, its probably more work to go back and delete entries that really don't take up much disk. Heck, collecting is easy, setting up periodic purges, archives, and such, usually gets pushed to another phase.... which may never come. another side is, its both good and bad. You can see patterns and alert to changes. You could also use it to prove someone wasn't where others claim and so on. If your really creative you can mine it and try to figure out why so many students are making trips that take time and minimize it to put more time to learning than traveling. Like we route packages in shipping companies, load the truck properly for the route, get students into a route that minimizes travel from class to class
- gwern 12y agoThis sounds interesting. I just composed 3 based on the Fountain template and mailed them off (snailmail, since I don't still have access to any university help systems). Wonder what I'll get back?
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- forrestthewoods 12y agoWhere is a link to actually read files? Reading NYTimes summary about said files is fine but I'd love to actually read them. It sounded like at least one student had made their files public? Maybe not.
- pbhjpbhj 12y agoIs there a legal conflict here - do writers of letters not have any protections under the law to prevent the letter being made public, or passed on to third parties. Do you lose all legal rights and controls over letters once you mail them? The teachers maker recommendations clearly had an assumption of privacy in their communication? If the Uni chose to precis the letter - eg provide a score in its place - would the right to view its content disappear. Is it just by virtue of it being attached directly to your internal academic record that one gets the ability to view it? Interesting.
- zaroth 12y ago"On the Common App used by most top colleges, applicants are asked to check a box waiving their right to ever see the recommendation letters written by their high school teachers and counselors. But students who did not check the box can get copies of those, too."
- kevinwang 12y agoalthough if I recall correctly, it seemed obligatory to check that box in order to get our recommendation letters sent through Common App.
- zaroth 12y agoSounds like a dark pattern.
- misingnoglic 12y agoYeah, my college counselors basically said "if you don't click this box the college will disregard your letters of rec."
- hwatson 12y agoYou are allowed to keep your FERPA recommendation rights but, as misingnoglic, most universities will not pay much attention to your recommendations if you choose to do so. https://appsupport.commonapp.org/link/portal/33011/33013/Article/984/FERPA-Waiver https://appsupport.commonapp.org/link/portal/33011/33013/Art...
- wdaher 12y agoMIT had the same problem in late 2003, and in the case of the college applications, solved the problem by simply destroying parts of the records when they were done with them. (http://tech.mit.edu/V123/N53/53studrec.53n.html http://tech.mit.edu/V123/N53/53studrec.53n.html and http://tech.mit.edu/V124/N47/47e3.47n.html http://tech.mit.edu/V124/N47/47e3.47n.html)
- qq66 12y agoWhich is how it should be. I can understand keeping a summary of the data to track the performance of your admissions process, but you shouldn't be keeping highly personal information about students for any longer than it takes to make the admissions decision.
- jacalata 12y agoWhy does the article focus so heavily on Stanford? I understand that the students who have done this so far are there, but if this is based on a federal law that applies to all universities, shouldn't it work at all universities?
- gwern 12y ago> I understand that the students who have done this so far are there, That's it exactly. They've done the groundwork, laid out a template, recruited some students to request their records, and discussed a bit what they found or might found. So it's going to be Stanford-specific until similar meat is thrown out about other places.
- pikachu_is_cool 12y agoWait, so will this work for other schools, too? Like a UC perhaps?
- shazeline 12y agoCurrent UCLA student. I just sent a request. Waiting to see what happens.
- pikachu_is_cool 12y agoKeep me updated please!
- spiritplumber 12y agoI tried the "rejection rejection letter" joke with Stanford after applying and being rejected (2009). I ended up working on a project with a Stanford prof for six months after that. It was fairly fun, and it let me decide that I didn't want to do grad school, so win-win there. History is made by those who show up. If you're told to not bother showing up, SHOW UP ANYWAY! I never had to escort a security person out of a building, either (although that happened at a Best Buy in 2006, but that's out of the scope of this article).
- eadler 12y agoBy any chance, was the Best Buy story related to http://improveverywhere.com/2006/04/23/best-buy/ http://improveverywhere.com/2006/04/23/best-buy/ ?
- andyidsinga 12y agothis is interesting - snopes calls it "legend". The text for the letter is great http://www.snopes.com/college/admin/rejection.asp http://www.snopes.com/college/admin/rejection.asp
- spiritplumber 12y agoSometimes the best way to prevent a physical fight is to carry the would-be fighters outside over your shoulders, and then offer to referee it. Securistas calm down very quickly when they realize they're not the only people in the room willing to use their hands.
- tux1968 12y agoWhy not ask students to only submit a 300 word-ish summary in the first place?
- tarstarr 12y agoHas anyone successfully gained access to their records? And has anyone posted them publicly? I'm interested in insights from this.