8 ms·

Bootstrapping overseas as an American

44 points by jasonkester 12y ago

codecamper 12y ago
I'm an overseas developer myself, currently sitting on a point break in Morocco enjoying perfect wifi, powering it all with solar panels. I'm pretty sure that the 100,000 IRS deduction is only for income earned from a foreign source. So, if you are like me and have your income coming from Apple app store sales, then you still need to pay your taxes, without a deduction. Basically, the big problem with working out of the US is that nearly all countries pay way less for software development. Thems the breaks.
- jasonkester 12y ago
  Taghazout perhaps? If so, it's good to hear that you can get good wifi there now. I spent a few weeks there back in 2008 and the only internet access was a tiny sweaty one room place with dialup speeds and no AC. Considering how comfortable and cheap those houses along the front were, I've always wanted to head back there and set up shop for an entire season. Sounds like that might actually be possible now. Good news.
  - codecamper 12y ago
    Yes Taghazout. But you can get great 3g in Mirleft, Agalou, and almost any spot along any road in Morocco now. Same with the rest of the world too. Almost anywhere we go we get great 3g. 3g is about $1 / GB here now. Sub 100ms ping times often so we can Skype (or goog voice) easily.
- jasonkester 12y ago
  Here's the relevant section explaining that yes, income from a US company is just groovy for use with the Foreign Earned Income deduction: http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Foreign-Earned-Income-Exclusion---What-is-Foreign-Earned-Income http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Forei... Source of Earned Income The source of your earned income is the place where you perform the services for which you received the income. Foreign earned income is income you receive for performing personal services in a foreign country. Where or how you are paid has no effect on the source of the income. For example, income you receive for work done in France is income from a foreign source even if the income is paid directly to your bank account in the United States and your employer is located in New York City.
  - codecamper 12y ago
    Interesting! I stand corrected. Next thing I don't understand with that document is what is "earned" income. Are app store sales "earned?" I'd say so... constantly having to update the software -- I'm earning it.
    - patio11 12y ago
      Your profits resulting from sales on the App Store (less such expenses as are reasonable and necessary to achieve that income) are, unquestionably, earned income resulting from your personal contribution to a business. http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/What-is-Earned-Income http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/What-is-Earned-Income Most forms of "unearned income" are where you're getting compensated primarily for capital rather than labor. For example, if you were to sell the business, the proceeds from the sale would ordinarily not be earned income. (There are sticky wickets around that question, which you'd want to ask a competent professional adviser about. Any adviser who tells you App Store income is unearned just lost their status as a competent adviser.)
      - codecamper 12y ago
        Yup, it seems that it may be OK for me to claim the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion. Too bad I didn't know about it and stayed too long in the US during 2010-2012. Still... for 2013 and on, I think I can claim it. Last piece of the puzzle is the tax home. I travel from country to country about every 3 months. Do I even have a tax home?
    - semperfaux 12y ago
      Is this facetious? Because it's a little funny to expect the IRS to be so literal. In my experience, either it's "earned" in that it's been paid directly to you or it's indirect income (e.g. dividends you were paid on an investment you aren't directly working on or appreciation you haven't collected on) that are still going to be taxed on in one way or another.
      - codecamper 12y ago
- patio11 12y ago
  You have received terrible tax advice. Self-employment income is sourced where you performed the work which earned it, not where the money changed hands. Ask me if you want voluminous citations on this.
- sschueller 12y ago
  The IRS needs to stop taxing US citizens abroad. It is draconian and taxation without representation. Even if you don't own any taxes you need to declare all assets over 10k and file a return. The US is the only country (other than Eritrea) that does this taxing of people who don't earn in the US. Isn't part of the reason the US exists because certain people no longer wanted to pay taxes to the king of England? Many are giving up citizenship because of this but now the price to do that has risen 400% to over $2000 just for processing not including any back taxes you may need to pay.
peterjmag 12y ago
Am I allowed to work there? No, not really. But they’re not checking. Places like Southeast Asia are chock full of expats living there, doing silly things like “visa runs” to the next country and back every couple months to remain a tourist for years on end. Even in Europe, where you wouldn’t be able to get a self-employment working visa (if such a thing existed) with less than six months effort and a good lawyer, you’ll find that they’re really a lot more interested in keeping the various people coming in from the South from doing so than they are in messing with you. Given the level of effort required to find somebody at the Santander ferry port to even stamp your passport, it’s unlikely that anybody is conducting a multi-month surveillance of your AirBnB “office” up in the hills above the Cote de Azur. Uh, what? No. Don't do this. Just because you might be able to get away with it in certain Southeast Asian countries doesn't mean you can get away with it in Europe. Sure, you might be "fine" for a couple months after your Schengen visa expires, but good luck if you ever need to, say, fly back to the US for a few days, or even hop over to the UK. When you try to get back in, you will almost definitely face consequences.[1] (EDIT: It's worth noting that you don't even have to attempt to re-enter to risk getting caught. Even a routine traffic stop can get you in trouble. In addition, they check your passport at most airports before boarding a flight that leaves the Schengen zone.) Yes, self-employment visas do exist (though admittedly only in some EU countries), and no, they do not require "six months effort and a good lawyer". In Germany for instance, a freelance visa is a pretty straightforward process, and the vast majority of people who apply for it do so without hiring a lawyer or even spending much money. If you're going to work in a foreign country, at least try to do so legitimately. You might find that it's not as difficult as you think, and you won't have to live with the vague fear of serious legal action hanging over your head. OP, please don't recommend this to people. [1] http://travel.stackexchange.com/a/13697 http://travel.stackexchange.com/a/13697
- jasonkester 12y ago
  Yeah, yikes. Definitely don't overstay a Schengen Visa. I'm not sure where you got that from the article but you're right that it's not a good plan. Beyond that, I can only speak from personal experience. 15 years and counting without running into any issue working from the road.
dalke 12y ago
That was an odd piece. I'll start with the provably wrong statement: "Even in Europe, where you wouldn’t be able to get a self-employment working visa (if such a thing existed) with less than six months effort and a good lawyer" It took me about 2 months to get a self-employment residency permit for Sweden. While I looked around for lawyers to help, I couldn't find any, and ended up writing it myself. It seems very few people do that option. YMMV of course. Which is my point. But as for the other parts, it depends on the type of person you are and what you want. I did the 3-month-at-a-time tourist visa option for a bit over a year. (It's not quite a 'visa run' because it wasn't a cross over the border and back thing.) It got tiresome to start make friends and then leave them, then come back, only to leave again. On the other hand, there are people who do that for decades, and love it. While I sell software, my customers are businesses, in a market where most contacts start by meeting people and word-of-mouth. Most of the people who might buy are in the US or Europe, and that's also where most of the conferences are held. It's much more expensive to send my bundle of atoms from South Africa (one of the places I considered living) than from Sweden. Again, this isn't true of everyone. There's a big difference between "and start bringing in a few hundred bucks a month from paying customers" and my software, which sells for a few tens of thousands. It also becomes harder if you want to have access to a local user's group (I co-founded the local Python user's group) or makerspace. So if your interests are surfing, rock climbing, Swedish women, and beaches, and you are selling direct to customers who expect no personal connection, etc. then certainly living overseas can be a great idea. I do believe that living or even just a multi-month travel overseas is a good thing to do at least once. Just bear in mind that it's not always as rosy as this author paints.
- a8da6b0c91d 12y ago
  The overseas bit of this seems more about hipster posing; having a slightly more exotic story to tell. I don't think the cost arguments for relocating to a developing country make any sense. You can live in third tier cities in America or Europe very cheaply. It's only major cities that are expensive. I think in a lot of folks' heads saying "I live by a beach in Thailand" is for some weird reason more cool than saying "I live by a beach in a cheap town in Florida."
  - 12y ago
ochoseis 12y ago
Anyone doing this in Hong Kong? The GF is considering a move to HK with work and I'm trying to sort out how I'd scrape by if I wanted to tag along...
- chatmasta 12y ago
  I just got back from a trip to HK. While I'm sure it's do-able, be forewarned that HK is just as expensive as any other major financial center. Don't expect prices to be cheap just because it's Asia.
  - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
    In HK, expensive things are cheap and cheap things are expensive...at least compared to the mainland.
  - Taniwha 12y ago
    I know people who are living in Shenzhen (a subway ride away) and commuting to HK - the whole "visa-run" being the morning commute
- corford 12y ago
  Try this link for some pointers: http://www.forbes.com/sites/joshsteimle/2013/07/12/how-i-opened-a-branch-office-of-my-business-in-hong-kong/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/joshsteimle/2013/07/12/how-i-ope...
- vmlinuz 12y ago
  Been living and working in HK for almost 10 years - currently all visa-ed up and legal, but haven't necessarily always been... There are persistent stories of people who've been living here for years doing regular visa runs, but oddly they mostly seem to be stories, not direct experiences. There are also stories of people who got 'caught', in that the immigration officials decided they'd done too many runs and couldn't explain how they were living in HK without working, and were given 2 weeks to clear up and move out. It's a risk... With a UK passport you'd get 180 days of visa-free stay per entry, with most other 'developed-world' passports you'd get 90 days. The actual rules on what you can do during that stay are quite strict - attending meetings, negotiating/signing contracts, etc. is allowed, but most other work isn't - to the extent that technically you're not even allowed to do voluntary work. That said, nobody is going to bother you if you're here for a few months and happen to be working for a remote client/employer at home or in a coffee shop. It's the visa runs which are the danger, since that's when they can pick you up. May not be a nice thing to say, but being white does help quite a lot. It's easier to be here as a resident, legally. You get (almost-)free access to government healthcare, and things like banking are much easier, plus of course you don't have that looking-over-your-shoulder feeling. One standard piece of advice, which definitely doesn't fit everyone but might be worth considering - assuming you and the GF are a heterosexual couple, a civil marriage is relatively simple in HK, and assuming she is working and/or a resident in her own right, that would get you a visa as a dependent. HK doesn't recognise non-heterosexual relationships in any useful way... An alternative might be Taiwan, maybe not for you, but for others seeking 'Asia' - I do know a Brit who's been living there for years doing visa runs while writing code for people mostly in the UK, and it seems to work for him and his drunken bum lifestyle :)
vdance 12y ago
I did this with a few differences. It was 2004, so a few services from these days were not as "available" from a quality perspective -- particularly, VoIP. I left to France with a PSTN phone device that answered calls to my business number, and forwarded them to a French PSTN fixed phone number -- all at international rates, which were a bit more expensive back then. I did later move to a VoIP service, when the quality was reasonably acceptable. Time differences in Asia would be different than France - maybe a few hours too many for me. I particularity loved the time difference between France and the US (~8 hours). Everyday, there was a whole day of work before my clients in the US would wake up. If needed, I could make a few calls before I had dinner and went out. I had a 3 year established list of clients when I moved there, so that helped. A fairly stressful aspect of living abroad was that all my clients came in "locally" by way of local google advertising. And as it happens, when someone picks up the phone and calls a number that seems local to them, they tend to assume they're talking to someone who is physically present in their city. Many clients were turned off after realizing that I was working abroad -- and not telling them (which I tried a couple times) was very strange as well -- it's just a balancing act. So my suggestion would be to get into a borderless niche business, if you can -- something like doing "websites for x" -- where a company would much rather work with someone with niche products and expertise, rather than someone local. Then the subject of where you physically are never really comes up, or makes sense. SAAS would work in that way too, of course.
ErrantX 12y ago
Bit of a bait and switch at the end: "Then save up $10k in case it doesn’t. Then book that flight." As with all things, often it doesn't work out and what you could end up with is (worst case) stuck somewhere in Asia with no funds, job or house. This sort of thing works if you have no family. A few years ago it would have worked, now with a young daughter and fiancee it's harder. And then when you're living on that beach and you meet a girl? Are you sure you want to live there for a long long time? One day we'll travel and live around the world, but I suspect much later. So.. sour grapes!
- vdance 12y ago
  hmmm - "As with all things, often it doesn't work out" ... not really sure where your source is on this -- I lived abroad for five years and met many, many people doing this same thing (especially in Bucharest) -- both in I.T. and in other fields -- it's very do-able, as the author describes -- and as you suggest, it helps if you don't have family
  - ErrantX 12y ago
    Empirical evidence of the number of friends who went to Asia for mid to long term and then came back within 2 years because it didn't work out. And the incident where I had to help a friend pay his airfare because he was literally stuck. Failure rate seemed higher than success rate.
    - ashleyp 12y ago
      2 years??? Imo that sounds pretty successful to me. But seriously, the issues you've highlighed are likely to come down to the individual who decided to spend all money without leaving enough for emergencies. Getting to do this for 6 months would be amazing. Imo. Rewards for this far, far outweigh everything else.
andsmi2 12y ago
Aren't you risking tax evasion in the countries you are staying in? If you are "earning" money and living in Thailand for instance...but not paying taxes....doesn't the Thai government have a vested interest in you--if they discover you? And might that not be a rough time in some countries?
- seanmcdirmid 12y ago
  Technically, they would be evading taxes in both the U.S. and Thailand. You have to be tax resident in another country to take the FEI deduction, and countries without taxes don't count. But you can always try to get away with it. I like to sleep at night however (and of course, china takes my taxes straight out of my paycheck). I'm not sure if a thai prison would scare me more than an IRS audit :)
jawngee 12y ago
I'm doing this in Vietnam. Not necessarily by choice at this point (got married, having a kid, need to stay now). The FEI thing only applies if you are paying taxes in your "host" country. Thankfully, you can minimize the burden in a few different ways. State taxes are another matter though. I was a resident of NYC, but became a resident of Nevada before I left. The visa situation in Vietnam is fucked right now. I was doing the tourist 3 month multiple entry, which you can reup 3 times in country for a year total, but now you can't do that. Getting the fiancé temporary residency, but you wouldn't believe how Kafka-esque that whole process is here. Though it wasn't as bad, or as expensive, as getting a marriage license. That required a shit ton of coffee money. It was fun for the first two years, but now I can't wait to get the hell out of this place.
- jamra 12y ago
  The money you make there must go pretty far though. What do you do for work? Are you Vietnamese or a foreigner? Sorry I'm just curious. I've been out there a few times and was considering bootstrapping a startup out there due to the low cost.
  - jawngee 12y ago
    I do consulting work for clients back in NYC, though not as much as I used to. The bulk of my time is spent on my video editing app: https://vimeo.com/110889552 https://vimeo.com/110889552 Yes, money goes very far here, but you are kind of getting what you pay for. My apartment is nice, but the water if full of arsenic. My internet connection is great, when the underwater AAG cable isn't being attacked by sharks. The food is awesome, until a few hours later when I'm popping pepto like candy. Sorry, I'm really sour grapes on this place at the moment. The first two years were amazing, but like once you are really living here, the shortcomings of the place become all too apparent.
    - jamra 12y ago
      You've got good reason to be sour grapes. Hang in there man. I was on the border of moving there for a short time ~1 year for a large project. The project didn't take off quite as expected so now I'm trying to get things done remotely. After watching the video on your link, I'm a little worried about your health. You sound very sad. Remember you can always take your wife to the states with you. Good luck buddy.
OneOneOneOne 12y ago
What do people do for health insurance in this situation? Or is it a don't get sick or hurt kind of deal?
- patio11 12y ago
  Single datum: I barely got the words "I quit my job the day before yesterday and am hence..." out before the friendly clerks at city hall put an application for (Japanese) national insurance in my hand. Had a card 20 minutes later.
- _delirium 12y ago
  The 3-month-tourist-visa case is pretty tricky. You can buy travel health insurance pretty reasonably, but most policies limit the length of a covered trip to 1 month at a time, and specify that it cannot be for work or study. If on the other hand you have official residence in another country, you can either buy local insurance there, or be covered under their national system (if they have one). But if you're somewhere for 3 months as a tourist (or "tourist") and have no local ID/registration, getting insurance that will cover that scenario is not easy. It's possible some travel insurance doesn't have the 1-month-per-trip limit, but all the ones I've seen do.
- yummyfajitas 12y ago
  Its mainly a "expect to pay a few grand" kind of deal. I had 2 spine surgeries and LASIK done this year. Maybe 300k rupees or about $4000. I could have gone cheaper, but at that price I just figured "why risk it"?
jefe_ 12y ago
A few notes based on my experiences: 1. Decide who you want to be in your new country, and be that person from absolute day one. Changes of setting are one of the most effective ways to end bad habits and start new ones. Want to wake up for sunrise and jog on the beach every day? Start the habit from day one. 2. 'Visa-Runs,' do work many places outside of N. America/Europe, but they must be done religiously. Miss one, and you could face massive penalties. 3. Go with a business to maintain, not a business idea to build, and be sure to have a strong support team in the U.S., and at least a handful of well-enough connected friends in the country you choose. 4. It's really tough to choose an International Health Insurance plan, but don't let the vast array of options deter you from doing so. Sure, health costs are low in many places, but a plan with MedEvac benefits included can really provide added peace of mind. 5. Make friends with motorcycle or taxi drivers, and pay them very well. These guys are the eyes and ears of the city you have made home, and being on their good side is very beneficial, and enjoyable. 6. Compensate for time differences with prompt and reliable communication. People learn not to expect responses from you right away, but if you can establish a system where clients and partners know there will be a response in their inbox by the time they wake up, the distance is less noticeable. 7. It's not easy, but can be an incredible lifestyle for those who go 'all in.'
freemanindia 12y ago
I've been doing this in India for the past 10 years. At this point I've basically set up my burningman camp on an organic farm on the edge of Bangalore. I run a code school where people learn web development online and encourage other techies to stop by and work on their projects for awhile. Cost of living including food and internet is about $100. Americans get great visas to India. Check us out http://jaaga.in http://jaaga.in
eloff 12y ago
I do this. I actually live in a large, ocean view condo in Panama City. I rent half of it on AirBnB which covers all my fixed expenses other than my mortgage. I work remotely for a Swiss company and I legally pay no taxes. I don't have a degree, and I've only been working since I was 26. I'll be worth half a million before I'm 33, partly because my condo has risen in value. I married a beautiful local girl who probably wouldn't have given me the time of day in my native Canada. Here I'm taller, handsomer, and richer without having changed at all, just because the local men lower the bar for competition. The city is full of things to do, and it's more modern and interesting in some ways than many Canadian cities. Good beaches are 1-2 hours by car, so sadly I don't code on the beach (when I go, coding is the furthest thing from my mind.)
- getsat 12y ago
  You make less than the FOIC cutoff, I assume? If not, how are you legally not paying US income taxes on foreign-earned income?
  - eloff 12y ago
    I'm Canadian, Canada is less possessive of its citizens than the US, if you don't have residency in Canada (not the same as just not living there anymore.)
    - anonbanker 12y ago
      is there a way to contact you? I'm attempting to assist a canadian expat, and am looking for resources.
    - ZeroFries 12y ago
      Also interested in more details. Maybe a Q&A? Could be valuable to others.
neillns 12y ago
"Here, you’re in luck. The IRS, being awesome, actually encourages you to piss off to parts unknown with its Foreign Earned Income Exclusion." How is this the IRS being awesome? This is the U.S. being one of only two countries who tax its citizens on foreign income.

44 points by jasonkester 12y ago

I'm an overseas developer myself, currently sitting on a point break in Morocco enjoying perfect wifi, powering it all with solar panels. I'm pretty sure that the 100,000 IRS deduction is only for income earned from a foreign source. So, if you are like me and have your income coming from Apple app store sales, then you still need to pay your taxes, without a deduction. Basically, the big problem with working out of the US is that nearly all countries pay way less for software development. Thems the breaks.

jasonkester 12y ago
Taghazout perhaps? If so, it's good to hear that you can get good wifi there now. I spent a few weeks there back in 2008 and the only internet access was a tiny sweaty one room place with dialup speeds and no AC. Considering how comfortable and cheap those houses along the front were, I've always wanted to head back there and set up shop for an entire season. Sounds like that might actually be possible now. Good news.
- codecamper 12y ago
  Yes Taghazout. But you can get great 3g in Mirleft, Agalou, and almost any spot along any road in Morocco now. Same with the rest of the world too. Almost anywhere we go we get great 3g. 3g is about $1 / GB here now. Sub 100ms ping times often so we can Skype (or goog voice) easily.
jasonkester 12y ago
Here's the relevant section explaining that yes, income from a US company is just groovy for use with the Foreign Earned Income deduction: http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Foreign-Earned-Income-Exclusion---What-is-Foreign-Earned-Income http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Forei... Source of Earned Income The source of your earned income is the place where you perform the services for which you received the income. Foreign earned income is income you receive for performing personal services in a foreign country. Where or how you are paid has no effect on the source of the income. For example, income you receive for work done in France is income from a foreign source even if the income is paid directly to your bank account in the United States and your employer is located in New York City.
- codecamper 12y ago
  Interesting! I stand corrected. Next thing I don't understand with that document is what is "earned" income. Are app store sales "earned?" I'd say so... constantly having to update the software -- I'm earning it.
  - patio11 12y ago
    Your profits resulting from sales on the App Store (less such expenses as are reasonable and necessary to achieve that income) are, unquestionably, earned income resulting from your personal contribution to a business. http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/What-is-Earned-Income http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/What-is-Earned-Income Most forms of "unearned income" are where you're getting compensated primarily for capital rather than labor. For example, if you were to sell the business, the proceeds from the sale would ordinarily not be earned income. (There are sticky wickets around that question, which you'd want to ask a competent professional adviser about. Any adviser who tells you App Store income is unearned just lost their status as a competent adviser.)
    - codecamper 12y ago
      Yup, it seems that it may be OK for me to claim the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion. Too bad I didn't know about it and stayed too long in the US during 2010-2012. Still... for 2013 and on, I think I can claim it. Last piece of the puzzle is the tax home. I travel from country to country about every 3 months. Do I even have a tax home?
  - semperfaux 12y ago
    Is this facetious? Because it's a little funny to expect the IRS to be so literal. In my experience, either it's "earned" in that it's been paid directly to you or it's indirect income (e.g. dividends you were paid on an investment you aren't directly working on or appreciation you haven't collected on) that are still going to be taxed on in one way or another.
    - codecamper 12y ago
patio11 12y ago
You have received terrible tax advice. Self-employment income is sourced where you performed the work which earned it, not where the money changed hands. Ask me if you want voluminous citations on this.
sschueller 12y ago
The IRS needs to stop taxing US citizens abroad. It is draconian and taxation without representation. Even if you don't own any taxes you need to declare all assets over 10k and file a return. The US is the only country (other than Eritrea) that does this taxing of people who don't earn in the US. Isn't part of the reason the US exists because certain people no longer wanted to pay taxes to the king of England? Many are giving up citizenship because of this but now the price to do that has risen 400% to over $2000 just for processing not including any back taxes you may need to pay.

peterjmag 12y ago

Am I allowed to work there? No, not really. But they’re not checking. Places like Southeast Asia are chock full of expats living there, doing silly things like “visa runs” to the next country and back every couple months to remain a tourist for years on end. Even in Europe, where you wouldn’t be able to get a self-employment working visa (if such a thing existed) with less than six months effort and a good lawyer, you’ll find that they’re really a lot more interested in keeping the various people coming in from the South from doing so than they are in messing with you. Given the level of effort required to find somebody at the Santander ferry port to even stamp your passport, it’s unlikely that anybody is conducting a multi-month surveillance of your AirBnB “office” up in the hills above the Cote de Azur. Uh, what? No. Don't do this. Just because you might be able to get away with it in certain Southeast Asian countries doesn't mean you can get away with it in Europe. Sure, you might be "fine" for a couple months after your Schengen visa expires, but good luck if you ever need to, say, fly back to the US for a few days, or even hop over to the UK. When you try to get back in, you will almost definitely face consequences.[1] (EDIT: It's worth noting that you don't even have to attempt to re-enter to risk getting caught. Even a routine traffic stop can get you in trouble. In addition, they check your passport at most airports before boarding a flight that leaves the Schengen zone.) Yes, self-employment visas do exist (though admittedly only in some EU countries), and no, they do not require "six months effort and a good lawyer". In Germany for instance, a freelance visa is a pretty straightforward process, and the vast majority of people who apply for it do so without hiring a lawyer or even spending much money. If you're going to work in a foreign country, at least try to do so legitimately. You might find that it's not as difficult as you think, and you won't have to live with the vague fear of serious legal action hanging over your head. OP, please don't recommend this to people. [1] http://travel.stackexchange.com/a/13697 http://travel.stackexchange.com/a/13697

jasonkester 12y ago
Yeah, yikes. Definitely don't overstay a Schengen Visa. I'm not sure where you got that from the article but you're right that it's not a good plan. Beyond that, I can only speak from personal experience. 15 years and counting without running into any issue working from the road.

dalke 12y ago

That was an odd piece. I'll start with the provably wrong statement: "Even in Europe, where you wouldn’t be able to get a self-employment working visa (if such a thing existed) with less than six months effort and a good lawyer" It took me about 2 months to get a self-employment residency permit for Sweden. While I looked around for lawyers to help, I couldn't find any, and ended up writing it myself. It seems very few people do that option. YMMV of course. Which is my point. But as for the other parts, it depends on the type of person you are and what you want. I did the 3-month-at-a-time tourist visa option for a bit over a year. (It's not quite a 'visa run' because it wasn't a cross over the border and back thing.) It got tiresome to start make friends and then leave them, then come back, only to leave again. On the other hand, there are people who do that for decades, and love it. While I sell software, my customers are businesses, in a market where most contacts start by meeting people and word-of-mouth. Most of the people who might buy are in the US or Europe, and that's also where most of the conferences are held. It's much more expensive to send my bundle of atoms from South Africa (one of the places I considered living) than from Sweden. Again, this isn't true of everyone. There's a big difference between "and start bringing in a few hundred bucks a month from paying customers" and my software, which sells for a few tens of thousands. It also becomes harder if you want to have access to a local user's group (I co-founded the local Python user's group) or makerspace. So if your interests are surfing, rock climbing, Swedish women, and beaches, and you are selling direct to customers who expect no personal connection, etc. then certainly living overseas can be a great idea. I do believe that living or even just a multi-month travel overseas is a good thing to do at least once. Just bear in mind that it's not always as rosy as this author paints.

a8da6b0c91d 12y ago
The overseas bit of this seems more about hipster posing; having a slightly more exotic story to tell. I don't think the cost arguments for relocating to a developing country make any sense. You can live in third tier cities in America or Europe very cheaply. It's only major cities that are expensive. I think in a lot of folks' heads saying "I live by a beach in Thailand" is for some weird reason more cool than saying "I live by a beach in a cheap town in Florida."
- 12y ago

ochoseis 12y ago

Anyone doing this in Hong Kong? The GF is considering a move to HK with work and I'm trying to sort out how I'd scrape by if I wanted to tag along...

chatmasta 12y ago
I just got back from a trip to HK. While I'm sure it's do-able, be forewarned that HK is just as expensive as any other major financial center. Don't expect prices to be cheap just because it's Asia.
- seanmcdirmid 12y ago
  In HK, expensive things are cheap and cheap things are expensive...at least compared to the mainland.
- Taniwha 12y ago
  I know people who are living in Shenzhen (a subway ride away) and commuting to HK - the whole "visa-run" being the morning commute
corford 12y ago
Try this link for some pointers: http://www.forbes.com/sites/joshsteimle/2013/07/12/how-i-opened-a-branch-office-of-my-business-in-hong-kong/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/joshsteimle/2013/07/12/how-i-ope...
vmlinuz 12y ago
Been living and working in HK for almost 10 years - currently all visa-ed up and legal, but haven't necessarily always been... There are persistent stories of people who've been living here for years doing regular visa runs, but oddly they mostly seem to be stories, not direct experiences. There are also stories of people who got 'caught', in that the immigration officials decided they'd done too many runs and couldn't explain how they were living in HK without working, and were given 2 weeks to clear up and move out. It's a risk... With a UK passport you'd get 180 days of visa-free stay per entry, with most other 'developed-world' passports you'd get 90 days. The actual rules on what you can do during that stay are quite strict - attending meetings, negotiating/signing contracts, etc. is allowed, but most other work isn't - to the extent that technically you're not even allowed to do voluntary work. That said, nobody is going to bother you if you're here for a few months and happen to be working for a remote client/employer at home or in a coffee shop. It's the visa runs which are the danger, since that's when they can pick you up. May not be a nice thing to say, but being white does help quite a lot. It's easier to be here as a resident, legally. You get (almost-)free access to government healthcare, and things like banking are much easier, plus of course you don't have that looking-over-your-shoulder feeling. One standard piece of advice, which definitely doesn't fit everyone but might be worth considering - assuming you and the GF are a heterosexual couple, a civil marriage is relatively simple in HK, and assuming she is working and/or a resident in her own right, that would get you a visa as a dependent. HK doesn't recognise non-heterosexual relationships in any useful way... An alternative might be Taiwan, maybe not for you, but for others seeking 'Asia' - I do know a Brit who's been living there for years doing visa runs while writing code for people mostly in the UK, and it seems to work for him and his drunken bum lifestyle :)

vdance 12y ago

I did this with a few differences. It was 2004, so a few services from these days were not as "available" from a quality perspective -- particularly, VoIP. I left to France with a PSTN phone device that answered calls to my business number, and forwarded them to a French PSTN fixed phone number -- all at international rates, which were a bit more expensive back then. I did later move to a VoIP service, when the quality was reasonably acceptable. Time differences in Asia would be different than France - maybe a few hours too many for me. I particularity loved the time difference between France and the US (~8 hours). Everyday, there was a whole day of work before my clients in the US would wake up. If needed, I could make a few calls before I had dinner and went out. I had a 3 year established list of clients when I moved there, so that helped. A fairly stressful aspect of living abroad was that all my clients came in "locally" by way of local google advertising. And as it happens, when someone picks up the phone and calls a number that seems local to them, they tend to assume they're talking to someone who is physically present in their city. Many clients were turned off after realizing that I was working abroad -- and not telling them (which I tried a couple times) was very strange as well -- it's just a balancing act. So my suggestion would be to get into a borderless niche business, if you can -- something like doing "websites for x" -- where a company would much rather work with someone with niche products and expertise, rather than someone local. Then the subject of where you physically are never really comes up, or makes sense. SAAS would work in that way too, of course.

ErrantX 12y ago

Bit of a bait and switch at the end: "Then save up $10k in case it doesn’t. Then book that flight." As with all things, often it doesn't work out and what you could end up with is (worst case) stuck somewhere in Asia with no funds, job or house. This sort of thing works if you have no family. A few years ago it would have worked, now with a young daughter and fiancee it's harder. And then when you're living on that beach and you meet a girl? Are you sure you want to live there for a long long time? One day we'll travel and live around the world, but I suspect much later. So.. sour grapes!

vdance 12y ago
hmmm - "As with all things, often it doesn't work out" ... not really sure where your source is on this -- I lived abroad for five years and met many, many people doing this same thing (especially in Bucharest) -- both in I.T. and in other fields -- it's very do-able, as the author describes -- and as you suggest, it helps if you don't have family
- ErrantX 12y ago
  Empirical evidence of the number of friends who went to Asia for mid to long term and then came back within 2 years because it didn't work out. And the incident where I had to help a friend pay his airfare because he was literally stuck. Failure rate seemed higher than success rate.
  - ashleyp 12y ago
    2 years??? Imo that sounds pretty successful to me. But seriously, the issues you've highlighed are likely to come down to the individual who decided to spend all money without leaving enough for emergencies. Getting to do this for 6 months would be amazing. Imo. Rewards for this far, far outweigh everything else.

andsmi2 12y ago

Aren't you risking tax evasion in the countries you are staying in? If you are "earning" money and living in Thailand for instance...but not paying taxes....doesn't the Thai government have a vested interest in you--if they discover you? And might that not be a rough time in some countries?

seanmcdirmid 12y ago
Technically, they would be evading taxes in both the U.S. and Thailand. You have to be tax resident in another country to take the FEI deduction, and countries without taxes don't count. But you can always try to get away with it. I like to sleep at night however (and of course, china takes my taxes straight out of my paycheck). I'm not sure if a thai prison would scare me more than an IRS audit :)

jawngee 12y ago

I'm doing this in Vietnam. Not necessarily by choice at this point (got married, having a kid, need to stay now). The FEI thing only applies if you are paying taxes in your "host" country. Thankfully, you can minimize the burden in a few different ways. State taxes are another matter though. I was a resident of NYC, but became a resident of Nevada before I left. The visa situation in Vietnam is fucked right now. I was doing the tourist 3 month multiple entry, which you can reup 3 times in country for a year total, but now you can't do that. Getting the fiancé temporary residency, but you wouldn't believe how Kafka-esque that whole process is here. Though it wasn't as bad, or as expensive, as getting a marriage license. That required a shit ton of coffee money. It was fun for the first two years, but now I can't wait to get the hell out of this place.

jamra 12y ago
The money you make there must go pretty far though. What do you do for work? Are you Vietnamese or a foreigner? Sorry I'm just curious. I've been out there a few times and was considering bootstrapping a startup out there due to the low cost.
- jawngee 12y ago
  I do consulting work for clients back in NYC, though not as much as I used to. The bulk of my time is spent on my video editing app: https://vimeo.com/110889552 https://vimeo.com/110889552 Yes, money goes very far here, but you are kind of getting what you pay for. My apartment is nice, but the water if full of arsenic. My internet connection is great, when the underwater AAG cable isn't being attacked by sharks. The food is awesome, until a few hours later when I'm popping pepto like candy. Sorry, I'm really sour grapes on this place at the moment. The first two years were amazing, but like once you are really living here, the shortcomings of the place become all too apparent.
  - jamra 12y ago
    You've got good reason to be sour grapes. Hang in there man. I was on the border of moving there for a short time ~1 year for a large project. The project didn't take off quite as expected so now I'm trying to get things done remotely. After watching the video on your link, I'm a little worried about your health. You sound very sad. Remember you can always take your wife to the states with you. Good luck buddy.

OneOneOneOne 12y ago

What do people do for health insurance in this situation? Or is it a don't get sick or hurt kind of deal?

patio11 12y ago
Single datum: I barely got the words "I quit my job the day before yesterday and am hence..." out before the friendly clerks at city hall put an application for (Japanese) national insurance in my hand. Had a card 20 minutes later.
_delirium 12y ago
The 3-month-tourist-visa case is pretty tricky. You can buy travel health insurance pretty reasonably, but most policies limit the length of a covered trip to 1 month at a time, and specify that it cannot be for work or study. If on the other hand you have official residence in another country, you can either buy local insurance there, or be covered under their national system (if they have one). But if you're somewhere for 3 months as a tourist (or "tourist") and have no local ID/registration, getting insurance that will cover that scenario is not easy. It's possible some travel insurance doesn't have the 1-month-per-trip limit, but all the ones I've seen do.
yummyfajitas 12y ago
Its mainly a "expect to pay a few grand" kind of deal. I had 2 spine surgeries and LASIK done this year. Maybe 300k rupees or about $4000. I could have gone cheaper, but at that price I just figured "why risk it"?

jefe_ 12y ago

A few notes based on my experiences: 1. Decide who you want to be in your new country, and be that person from absolute day one. Changes of setting are one of the most effective ways to end bad habits and start new ones. Want to wake up for sunrise and jog on the beach every day? Start the habit from day one. 2. 'Visa-Runs,' do work many places outside of N. America/Europe, but they must be done religiously. Miss one, and you could face massive penalties. 3. Go with a business to maintain, not a business idea to build, and be sure to have a strong support team in the U.S., and at least a handful of well-enough connected friends in the country you choose. 4. It's really tough to choose an International Health Insurance plan, but don't let the vast array of options deter you from doing so. Sure, health costs are low in many places, but a plan with MedEvac benefits included can really provide added peace of mind. 5. Make friends with motorcycle or taxi drivers, and pay them very well. These guys are the eyes and ears of the city you have made home, and being on their good side is very beneficial, and enjoyable. 6. Compensate for time differences with prompt and reliable communication. People learn not to expect responses from you right away, but if you can establish a system where clients and partners know there will be a response in their inbox by the time they wake up, the distance is less noticeable. 7. It's not easy, but can be an incredible lifestyle for those who go 'all in.'

freemanindia 12y ago

I've been doing this in India for the past 10 years. At this point I've basically set up my burningman camp on an organic farm on the edge of Bangalore. I run a code school where people learn web development online and encourage other techies to stop by and work on their projects for awhile. Cost of living including food and internet is about $100. Americans get great visas to India. Check us out http://jaaga.in http://jaaga.in

eloff 12y ago

I do this. I actually live in a large, ocean view condo in Panama City. I rent half of it on AirBnB which covers all my fixed expenses other than my mortgage. I work remotely for a Swiss company and I legally pay no taxes. I don't have a degree, and I've only been working since I was 26. I'll be worth half a million before I'm 33, partly because my condo has risen in value. I married a beautiful local girl who probably wouldn't have given me the time of day in my native Canada. Here I'm taller, handsomer, and richer without having changed at all, just because the local men lower the bar for competition. The city is full of things to do, and it's more modern and interesting in some ways than many Canadian cities. Good beaches are 1-2 hours by car, so sadly I don't code on the beach (when I go, coding is the furthest thing from my mind.)

getsat 12y ago
You make less than the FOIC cutoff, I assume? If not, how are you legally not paying US income taxes on foreign-earned income?
- eloff 12y ago
  I'm Canadian, Canada is less possessive of its citizens than the US, if you don't have residency in Canada (not the same as just not living there anymore.)
  - anonbanker 12y ago
    is there a way to contact you? I'm attempting to assist a canadian expat, and am looking for resources.
  - ZeroFries 12y ago
    Also interested in more details. Maybe a Q&A? Could be valuable to others.

neillns 12y ago

"Here, you’re in luck. The IRS, being awesome, actually encourages you to piss off to parts unknown with its Foreign Earned Income Exclusion." How is this the IRS being awesome? This is the U.S. being one of only two countries who tax its citizens on foreign income.