12 ms·

Parents investigated for neglect after letting kids walk home alone

92 points by nherment 12y ago

tincholio 12y ago
In Finland, kids as young as 6 or 7 routinely walk to school on their own, and when it's winter time, that means they do it during night time. No one thinks this is weird, and nothing happens to them.
cyphunk 12y ago
People, you are likely not a monster parent but the CPA and police are there to try to find the rare monsters. I understand resisting someone making rules for how you parent, and I support "free range" roaming "liberty fry" eating parenting, but just let the CPA search your house, see all is well, interview your kids. If they don't find dead bodies in your basement they will probably move along.
tokenadult 12y ago
I remembered a website with a visual illustration of how much the walking range of children has declined in Britain during four generations of a family living in the same town. The map, based on where the great-grandfather, grandfather, mother, and son in the same family walked, shows a stark narrowing in how far children walk on their own.[1] In my town, in Minnesota in the United States, I walked regularly on the city trail system with my children to the county library branch (about a mile away, in one direction from our home) or to the shopping district (about a mile away in the other direction on our same city trail system). All of my children have been able to do those walks on their own, or with an older sibling accompanying a younger sibling, for a long time. My children can be out and about in our neighborhood without anyone hassling them. It should be that way for more children. Most cities in the United States these days are objectively safe enough for children to walk outdoors alone at the ages described in the article kindly submitted here (I don't know specifically about that part of greater DC in suburban Maryland,[2] but I would guess it is safe enough too), and children are better off walking and exploring more rather than being confined indoors or in cars on parental drives to other buildings all day. AFTER EDIT: Many comments posted after mine here was posted are bemoaning the lack of freedom children have to roam outside today, but that remains to be proven. I think the most astute comments here point out that we really don't know whether there are a lot of external pressures on parents to keep their children from walking outside alone, or just a change in parenting practices that makes that less common. I can testify that here in Minnesota, my children are far from the only children who walk outside by themselves at the ages reported in the news anecdote here. Compared to my childhood growing up not far from where I live now, I think children spend too much time indoors in general, and not enough time outside, but I have no fear of the police or the child protection authorities here when my children are outside. We are homeschoolers, so my children have spent a lot of time outdoors during normal school hours. That has never been a problem here, as everyone knows that homeschooling is legal in Minnesota. My children have often walked to the public library by themselves during school hours. New parents (some of the commenters on this thread) need not be afraid of bringing up their children to take walks by themselves outdoors. [1] http://bigthink.com/strange-maps/571-the-great-indoors-or-childhoods-end http://bigthink.com/strange-maps/571-the-great-indoors-or-ch... [2] https://www.google.com/maps/place/Woodside+Park,+Silver+Spring,+MD+20910/@39.0064983,-77.0302548,15z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x89b7c8b4e374455b:0xa022de7872e035fd https://www.google.com/maps/place/Woodside+Park,+Silver+Spri...
- laurenbee 12y ago
  I grew up in Silver Spring and was allowed to walk to nearby parks and friends' houses alone or with other friends starting around kindergarten. If I had kids and lived there now, I would definitely allow them to walk around the neighborhood.
TehCorwiz 12y ago
Stay indoors citizen. It is for your protection.
jgrahamc 12y ago
"The first day of term coincided with the 1926 General Strike in Britain, but he was so determined to attend that he rode his bicycle unaccompanied more than 60 miles (97 km) from Southampton to Sherborne, stopping overnight at an inn." That's Alan Turing, aged 13. I used to walk home from school middle school across the centre of the town I lived in. That was about 1.5 miles. Was not considered weird or dangerous.
- joezydeco 12y ago
  Kind of matches up with this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-462091/How-children-lost-right-roam-generations.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-462091/How-children-... "When George Thomas was eight he walked everywhere. It was 1926 and his parents were unable to afford the fare for a tram, let alone the cost of a bike and he regularly walked six miles to his favourite fishing haunt without adult supervision. Fast forward to 2007 and Mr Thomas's eight-year-old great-grandson Edward enjoys none of that freedom. He is driven the few minutes to school, is taken by car to a safe place to ride his bike and can roam no more than 300 yards from home."
graeme 12y ago
How odd. America is much safer than it used to be, but people are more afraid. My father walked to and from school every day in Montreal when he was young, for a good half hour each way I believe. He'd go in a group with kids from the neighborhood, there were no adults. I walked to school every morning in Canada starting from age six, alone. I didn't live far from school, but if I had lived further I still would have walked alone. Lots of kids in my neighborhood walked alone. This was the early 1990s.
- forgottenpass 12y ago
  but people are more afraid. The media has taught us to be afraid. Not maliciously so. It makes us better consumers, the metric they're paid to optimize.
  - niels_olson 12y ago
    I walked to school, about a mile each way, every day from 3rd to 5th grade. We routinely walked to a pool over half a mile away in the summer. We walked to the dentist, we walked to the dairy store for milk. My mom would give me 75 cents and tell me to go get a gallon of milk, which gets heavy quick.
  - godkingjim 12y ago
    Fear sells. Thats it. Thats the only reason media exhaustively reports on crime. There is no corporatist/consumerist conspiracy. It sells so they do it.
  - Florin_Andrei 12y ago
    > Not maliciously so. The vast majority of media people cannot be malicious, sure - but looking at some of the corporate higher-ups, I'm less inclined to absolve them of moral issues.
- vilhelm_s 12y ago
  Perhaps some of the increased safety comes from people being more afraid and therefore taking more precautions now? So it's not necessarily a contradiction. Edit: Also, I think some of the safety culture comes from diminishing returns. E.g., in the 1950s industrial workplace safety was extremely poor by modern standards. But the people who worked there had just been through world war II, so the risk must have seemed low by comparison. Similarly, the 1990s probably had a bunch of risks which we have solved now---e.g. cars are safer now, and violent crime is lower. So we start worrying about higher-hanging fruit, such as children's commute to school.
jessep 12y ago
Reading this, I felt real anger at our society. I have 1 year old twin girls and I am genuinely scared and saddened by the limitations that paranoid adults are going to put on us as parents, and them as children. We live in a world driven by fear detached from the real risks and joys of life.
- xrange 12y ago
  >Reading this, I felt real anger at our society. I think everybody feels this way. I have a hard time imagining that anything but the vast majority of parents would agree. So that makes we wonder if there is some agenda behind this? A gas lighting effect maybe? People would say "well things may not be ideal where I live, but at least it is not like over there", and so they are less likely to act to change things locally? I don't know, maybe I'm just being paranoid.
  - randallsquared 12y ago
    > I think everybody feels this way. I have a hard time imagining that anything but the vast majority of parents would agree. I think this is typical mind fallacy. Most parents, especially in these days of tiny family sizes, are probably more heavily protective than parents used to be. I was ten in 1983, and for most of my childhood my only present parent was of the same age as most of my peers' grandparents (all of my siblings were boomers), and the difference in protectiveness was noticeable: I could stay out for hours at any time of the day or night when I was 13 and 14, except for times that were scheduled (school, church, and homework, basically). He wasn't surprised if he didn't see me for the entire weekend at that age.
  - ashark 12y ago
    I think the main reason is that the police feel like they have to do something about any complaint of this sort, because they'll be fed to the media sharks on the off chance that something does happen, even if it's some unrelated incident[1]. So all it takes is one idiot making a complaint and the police feel like they must act because that's safer for them and for the department than if they don't. No-one's going to lose their job or any money over the linked story, so that's the safe option. [1] "Could the police be partly to blame for so-and-so's disappearance? Here's the story of how our police ignored reports of vulnerable children in the weeks before this horrible event."
wtbob 12y ago
> Danielle and Alexander Meitiv say they are being investigated for neglect for the Dec. 20 trek… 'Trek'? It was a mile walk! Not a big deal. This country has become insane.
pnathan 12y ago
I am looking for a house in part based on the criteria of letting my (future) children be able to get on transit or their bike and be independent as soon as reasonable. There is no reason I need to be in a helicopter over the children until they are 16 or whenever the government lets them drive. With respect to kidnapping, abuse, etc, the larger danger is friends and family, not strangers. It is a fact that America is much closer to 1950s levels of safety in the 2010s. John Paul Jones joined the Navy at 13. Why hold your children back? edit: I see these stories come out of NYC, DC, etc. Are there similar reports from places that are, ahem, more known for freedom, i.e., Utah, Wyoming, etc?
justthisonce1 12y ago
I grew up in Manhattan in 80's, early 90's... by 4th grade/age 10 pretty much the whole class came to school by themselves - there is no school bus service in Manhattan kids get buss passes (handed out at school) to use on the buses and subways... Additionally, most of our parents gave us $5-10 dollars that we were not to spend but keep with us at all time as "mugging money" - so that we had something to give up if we were mugged. Apparently, a whole generation of parents were "neglecting" their kids...
spiritplumber 12y ago
I biked to school from grade 6 to grade 13 (Italy, we have 5 years of high school). Walked to school before, but it was only a few blocks. I moved to Texas for university, and people looked at me funny because I preferred to bike around if it was less than a couple miles.
- emeraldd 12y ago
  It Texas we have this thing called summer ... There are hotter times/places, but it's enough ;) On a more serious note, the size of the state is enough to pretty much force people to own cars/drive on a daily basis. At least that's been my experience.
chpp 12y ago
For reference, I graduated HS in 2005 so my childhood was mid to late 90s. My friends and I used to tell our parents were were all going to each others houses and then ride our bikes all around town, through construction sites, abandoned factories, down highways, etc. None of us were abducted, died, injuries happen but who doesn't fall off their bike now and then ;) The only times cops were involved were when someone called them. Cops would show up, talk to us, then leave once they knew we weren't making trouble and were safe. Never followed up on us or our parents. The only scary situation is once we were playing paintball and someone said a bunch of kids with guns are running around, cops showed up, searched us then went home laughing. I think the difference today is all related to liability and the helicopter culture it created. Maybe the cops are just CYAing themselves by involving CPS. Maybe the cops didn't like the parents attitude and involved CPS. There is a huge stigma today about being up your kids ass and if you're not, you're a bad parent. Politicians and the media bank big time on pushing these "morals" and punishing anyone who thinks differently. It's not something that will be fixed tomorrow. I look at the kids in my neighborhood and I feel sad for them. They wont have the experience I had. I am sure everyone feels that way though, the only difference is 15 years ago no one was going to jail or losing their kids over politics. My comment is a little all-over-the-place but my point is, raising a kid in America is too dangerous of a risk for me and it's a sad thing to think about. The cultural fixes are all very obvious but then what will the news talk about? What will politicians campaign about? How can our leaders show they are "tough on the issues" unless they are relentlessly hammering insanity? I always think of a quote from The Other Guys when topics like this come up because the solution is so obviously simple but so obviously never going to happen... Gamble: What about nine million socially-conscious and unified citizens, all just stepping up and doing their part?
- RIMR 12y ago
  I used to ride my bike out of the county when I was in Elementary school. The worst thing that ever happened was that some redneck threw a beer bottle at me and knocked me off my bike. I got his license plate number and phoned the police. In the semi-rural area I had managed to bike to (about ten miles from my house) the police could care less about why I was biking, They thanked me for the info, made sure I was ok, and sent me on my way. Phoned my mother later (i borrowed her cell phone so I could call home while biking) to tell her that they caught the guy and were charging him with assault of a minor and DWI. I just had to speak to an officer on the phone for about 10 minutes and that was the end of that. Now we apparently are considering taking children away from their parents because they were allowed to be 1/2 mile from their homes unattended? Was I born in the last decade where one could experience childhood?
Kenji 12y ago
Children already have way too few rights. I don't like the direction our society is moving in. You can't just take away rights of a minority, especially children. Getting taken in by the police is probably more harmful and scarring than anything that could have happened to them (with a non-negligible probability) on their short way.
jwatte 12y ago
I'm 45. I walked alone to and from school every day of my youth since I was 7. My kids do the same. This is totally normal. However, some states are still ruled by people who want to teach creationism, or legislate that pi is 3, because America values freedom to ignore observable evidence in favor of opinion.
- jff 12y ago
  > some states are still ruled by people who want to teach creationism, or legislate that pi is 3 sweet dig but this is Maryland we're talking about, they go in for a different kind of loony there.
xrange 12y ago
So, I'm not up to speed on this issue, but can anyone give a brief summary or link describing why we need a special "extra-legal" department like CPS? Extra-legal probably isn't the exact wording I'm looking for, but why couldn't issues of excessive cruelty to children be handled in the standard manner, with due-process, etc.? I suppose I only hear about the outliers of extreme overreach, but it seems like CPS attracts busybodies with power complexes. And there is a potential that there is more of a backstory here that we aren't hearing about. Is there a compelling reason we shouldn't we shut these agencies down, or at least greatly curtail their activities? Or at the very least, fire everyone who was involved in this particular investigation?
- sophacles 12y ago
  Mostly it comes down to: division of labor is a thing. CPS is responsible for things like foster care, finding if parents are (truly) neglectful and abusive, helping teach ignorant parents how to not kill their kids accidentally, and other related things. In most of the work they do, it is just due process - Our society has decided that when a parent goes to jail, or is ordered into an institution, or what not, and does so while caring for children and having no backup means for caring for those children, we shouldn't throw those kids out on the street and hope they survive. In the case of neglect and abuse - it's apparent to people trained to find it (even in clear cut cases) but not as often noticable just by a quick glance: A common tactic of abusers is to hide it to the outside world, and scare the abused into lying about it - cops are trained to handle one situation, CPS investigators are trained to handle this different one. (Much like we have forensic accountants investigate financial crime and homicide detectives investigate murder). When cops overstep and murder random people - the response is "well they have hard jobs, and they are trained to be safe", but when CPS oversteps and asks some uncomfortable questions, its "busybodies". Why does no one say "well they also get kids into homes rather than putting them on the street, and they see a lot of horrible abuse cases and are maybe a bit overcautious"? Do you in general disagree with the notion of specialization and division of labor, or is it a knee-jerk reaction to the fact that "government" is doing it? Why do you want to automatically shut down an agency that does a lot of good, because some bureaucrat is overstepping (or legally mandated to do so, whatever the case may be)?
brd 12y ago
For me, the way we treat children has become the shining example of how broken our society has become (in the US at least). I'm appalled by the lack of freedom kids have these days. I'm appalled by how many parents opt to stick a tablet in front of a kid instead of parenting. From an objective perspective, it really does look like we're trying to breed the most narrow minded, most uninquisitive, most docile versions of ourselves possible and I'm mortified by this trend.
godkingjim 12y ago
Peoples perception of the probability of criminal victimization is directly tied to the frequncy and intensity of media reporting on criminal activity.
jacquesm 12y ago
At the grand old age of 9 or so I walked all over Amsterdam and my mom being a 'working single mom' from when I was 6 taught my sister (aged 4) and me to hold hands during the road crossings and to walk to the traffic light, cross, the walk back the other way to get to school (about 1.5 km away from where we lived). Nobody ever batted an eye and definitely were not the kids living furthest from school and not the only ones walking unsupervised. I'm pretty happy I didn't grow up in a nanny state where I'd have been more or less confined to the house or where my mom would have had to give up her job just so we could be sheparded to school and back twice per day. This was all around 1971, I'm not sure how many parents let their children that age walk alone to school in Amsterdam today. Traffic is much heavier than it was back then (more cars, comparatively fewer bicycles) and definitely more aggressive. Still, people respect the traffic lights (especially cars, bicycles less so) and I'm pretty sure that that route could be walked safely by a 6 and a 4 year old with proper instruction and a parent that has confidence in their abilities. Whatever would happen I doubt that that parent would be investigated for neglect. In Canada (or so I was told) leaving your 10 year old unattended in the house could lead to trouble with child protection services.
jrs235 12y ago
The perception is that CPS workers are egomaniacs that think they can't be wrong and many appear power hungry. The sad part is for ever time CPS "sign and agree or we'll make your life hell and take your children" they end up screwing up and failing a child in real need. Their mentality is similar to that perceived of police forces... "you might beat the rap but you can't beat the ride... now comply!" (regardless of whether they are in the right or not) ADD: It would seem that CPS focuses on making hell for parents who challenge them instead of focusing on protecting children. They'll invest more time and energy in showing people "who's the boss" than just using some common sense and intelligent passive monitoring. Google "CPS failed"
- PseudoRoach 12y ago
  Yea, my wife and I have had a run in with cps, luckily nothing bad came of it. For a while though I was constantly thinking of the kids that actually are in an abusive situation and haven't been helped by these cps jerks who would rather waste their time threatening to shatter everything I live for. And yes, I tried to stand up to them and they threatened to remove our kids. Wtf? How can it be so easy for an entity to just do that? Something really wrong with that.
pmontra 12y ago
Different country and different times but at 10 I walked to and from school alone, probably also before that age, can't remember. It would have been odd to go there with a parent, are you a mummy's boy? Furthermore everybody did it, no danger at all with the exception of one road crossing. One or two years later I started walking to that very same school with my younger brother before going to my new one. They started at the same time but luckily they were only a couple of blocks apart so I could manage. I sympathize for those kids and their parents and I'm worried seeing the same things happening here. Luckily no police involved, only apprehensive and omnipresent parents.
goodcanadian 12y ago
"'The number one cause of death for children of their age is a car accident.'” They're children. What else are they going to die of?
- giarc 12y ago
  Measles. Just a joke, but you're correct. There risk of most major life threatening diseases (cancer, lung disease, etc) are near 0 and therefore MVAs do kill the most.
- dalke 12y ago
  Gun-related deaths, drowning, suffocation are next on the list at http://www.childdeathreview.org/nationalchildmortalitydata.htm http://www.childdeathreview.org/nationalchildmortalitydata.h... . However, motor injury outnumbers all of the other listed fatalities due to unintentional injury. A lot of the numbers in that list are due to infants <1 year old. The CDC more generically says "malignant neoplasms" - cancer - is about 55% as likely as as unintentional injury for the ages of the children in the report. http://www.cdc.gov/injury/images/lc-charts/leading_causes_of_death_by_age_group_2012-a.gif http://www.cdc.gov/injury/images/lc-charts/leading_causes_of... To answer your question, gun-related deaths and cancer.
chris_wot 12y ago
This might be off topic, but go check Google News for "meitiv", and look at how much spam is there from The Week!
- danielweber 12y ago
  I don't see any.
talmand 12y ago
A few here are giving examples of how this kind of thing wasn't a problem when they were a kid. I had similar experiences. But, I want to say that I actively do not allow my children to play in our front yard. Not because I'm afraid a stranger will take them, not because I'm afraid they'll wander into the street to get hit by a car, not because I'm afraid they'll get hurt without an adult present, not because I'm afraid they'll wonder off to get lost. The reason I don't let them play in the front yard? I'm afraid a neighbor will report me and the government will come take my kids away. This is the true tragedy of these stories, society has only traded one type of fear for another that is potentially far worse in nature.
- lucisferre 12y ago
  I wonder how many of your neighbours feel the same as you. I wonder, if after seeing your kids play in the front yard, how many would respond in kind, letting their kids outside to play with yours, assuming that if one parent was willing then they wouldn't feel so guilty about it. I suppose we just don't live in that kind of world anymore. I used to play the suburbs with other kids, we were rarely in the backyard, going around on the cul-de-sac and the windy roads of suburbia. By the time I was about 10 or 11 I had biked across the entire city. My daughter is 3, we live in the city, but there are kids. The roads are busier and the neighbourhood more crowded with more cars now. I'm not sure if I'll have the same attitude. Funnily as grandparents even my parents seem much more reluctant, and worried about my daughter than they were about us.
- jrs235 12y ago
  So true. If anyone other than an officer or CPS agent takes your children, they will face consequences and justice has an opportunity to prevail. If an officer or CPS agent takes your children justice never enters the equation and consequences don't exist for them. ADD: What can you do? "You might be able to beat the rap but you can't beat the ride. Now comply." In such situations you really are powerless. The worst kind of fear and situation, one where you are powerless.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
nextweek2 12y ago
There are two counter points that are not covered. Kids getting hurt in car accidents doesn't distinguish between them being in the car or being hit by a car. All of the car accidents I have heard where a child was hurt have been when the kid was crossing. Secondly, its not a question of if the world is safer. The issue is with how litigious the world is, if the cops hadn't called CPS and something was wrong they would have gotten in trouble, if the CPS hadn't followed standard operating procedure their jobs would have been on the line. In my opinion, as a parent, the people to blame are the over protective parents that call for "Think of the children" laws/rule just because of statistically insignificant tragedies.
cafard 12y ago
As a boomer, I think of this from time to time. One point that strikes me is that there were a lot of maternal eyes exercising loose but not infrequent surveillance. And there weren't a lot of latch-key kids around back then: moms knew when school got out, when would be a reasonable time for the kid to show up, dump the book bag and run out back to play. And adults didn't mind leaning out the door and rebuking you if they thought they should. Admittedly, I remember only the case of the lady who objected to a couple of us kicking snow at each other and incidentally onto her well-cleaned sidewalk. http://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2014/08/03 http://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2014/08/03
landofthebrave 12y ago
>At first he refused, saying he needed to talk to a lawyer, his wife said, but changed his mind when he was told his children would be removed if he did not comply. Protecting children from abduction, by abducting them. GG America!
ianbicking 12y ago
I was curious about laws and such (since they said in the article that children under eight were legally supposed to be under supervision in that jurisdiction), and came upon this study on unsupervised kids: http://www.childtrends.org/wp-content/uploads/2003/04/unsupervisedRB.pdf http://www.childtrends.org/wp-content/uploads/2003/04/unsupe... That says that 7% of kids age 6-9 are under self care. Not a huge percentage, but millions of kids. Which is to say, there's nothing unusual about kids on their own – but maybe to avoid criticism, keep them hidden away inside when they are on their own.

92 points by nherment 12y ago

In Finland, kids as young as 6 or 7 routinely walk to school on their own, and when it's winter time, that means they do it during night time. No one thinks this is weird, and nothing happens to them.

cyphunk 12y ago

People, you are likely not a monster parent but the CPA and police are there to try to find the rare monsters. I understand resisting someone making rules for how you parent, and I support "free range" roaming "liberty fry" eating parenting, but just let the CPA search your house, see all is well, interview your kids. If they don't find dead bodies in your basement they will probably move along.

tokenadult 12y ago

I remembered a website with a visual illustration of how much the walking range of children has declined in Britain during four generations of a family living in the same town. The map, based on where the great-grandfather, grandfather, mother, and son in the same family walked, shows a stark narrowing in how far children walk on their own.[1] In my town, in Minnesota in the United States, I walked regularly on the city trail system with my children to the county library branch (about a mile away, in one direction from our home) or to the shopping district (about a mile away in the other direction on our same city trail system). All of my children have been able to do those walks on their own, or with an older sibling accompanying a younger sibling, for a long time. My children can be out and about in our neighborhood without anyone hassling them. It should be that way for more children. Most cities in the United States these days are objectively safe enough for children to walk outdoors alone at the ages described in the article kindly submitted here (I don't know specifically about that part of greater DC in suburban Maryland,[2] but I would guess it is safe enough too), and children are better off walking and exploring more rather than being confined indoors or in cars on parental drives to other buildings all day. AFTER EDIT: Many comments posted after mine here was posted are bemoaning the lack of freedom children have to roam outside today, but that remains to be proven. I think the most astute comments here point out that we really don't know whether there are a lot of external pressures on parents to keep their children from walking outside alone, or just a change in parenting practices that makes that less common. I can testify that here in Minnesota, my children are far from the only children who walk outside by themselves at the ages reported in the news anecdote here. Compared to my childhood growing up not far from where I live now, I think children spend too much time indoors in general, and not enough time outside, but I have no fear of the police or the child protection authorities here when my children are outside. We are homeschoolers, so my children have spent a lot of time outdoors during normal school hours. That has never been a problem here, as everyone knows that homeschooling is legal in Minnesota. My children have often walked to the public library by themselves during school hours. New parents (some of the commenters on this thread) need not be afraid of bringing up their children to take walks by themselves outdoors. [1] http://bigthink.com/strange-maps/571-the-great-indoors-or-childhoods-end http://bigthink.com/strange-maps/571-the-great-indoors-or-ch... [2] https://www.google.com/maps/place/Woodside+Park,+Silver+Spring,+MD+20910/@39.0064983,-77.0302548,15z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x89b7c8b4e374455b:0xa022de7872e035fd https://www.google.com/maps/place/Woodside+Park,+Silver+Spri...

laurenbee 12y ago
I grew up in Silver Spring and was allowed to walk to nearby parks and friends' houses alone or with other friends starting around kindergarten. If I had kids and lived there now, I would definitely allow them to walk around the neighborhood.

TehCorwiz 12y ago

Stay indoors citizen. It is for your protection.

jgrahamc 12y ago

"The first day of term coincided with the 1926 General Strike in Britain, but he was so determined to attend that he rode his bicycle unaccompanied more than 60 miles (97 km) from Southampton to Sherborne, stopping overnight at an inn." That's Alan Turing, aged 13. I used to walk home from school middle school across the centre of the town I lived in. That was about 1.5 miles. Was not considered weird or dangerous.

joezydeco 12y ago
Kind of matches up with this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-462091/How-children-lost-right-roam-generations.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-462091/How-children-... "When George Thomas was eight he walked everywhere. It was 1926 and his parents were unable to afford the fare for a tram, let alone the cost of a bike and he regularly walked six miles to his favourite fishing haunt without adult supervision. Fast forward to 2007 and Mr Thomas's eight-year-old great-grandson Edward enjoys none of that freedom. He is driven the few minutes to school, is taken by car to a safe place to ride his bike and can roam no more than 300 yards from home."

graeme 12y ago

How odd. America is much safer than it used to be, but people are more afraid. My father walked to and from school every day in Montreal when he was young, for a good half hour each way I believe. He'd go in a group with kids from the neighborhood, there were no adults. I walked to school every morning in Canada starting from age six, alone. I didn't live far from school, but if I had lived further I still would have walked alone. Lots of kids in my neighborhood walked alone. This was the early 1990s.

forgottenpass 12y ago
but people are more afraid. The media has taught us to be afraid. Not maliciously so. It makes us better consumers, the metric they're paid to optimize.
- niels_olson 12y ago
  I walked to school, about a mile each way, every day from 3rd to 5th grade. We routinely walked to a pool over half a mile away in the summer. We walked to the dentist, we walked to the dairy store for milk. My mom would give me 75 cents and tell me to go get a gallon of milk, which gets heavy quick.
- godkingjim 12y ago
  Fear sells. Thats it. Thats the only reason media exhaustively reports on crime. There is no corporatist/consumerist conspiracy. It sells so they do it.
- Florin_Andrei 12y ago
  > Not maliciously so. The vast majority of media people cannot be malicious, sure - but looking at some of the corporate higher-ups, I'm less inclined to absolve them of moral issues.
vilhelm_s 12y ago
Perhaps some of the increased safety comes from people being more afraid and therefore taking more precautions now? So it's not necessarily a contradiction. Edit: Also, I think some of the safety culture comes from diminishing returns. E.g., in the 1950s industrial workplace safety was extremely poor by modern standards. But the people who worked there had just been through world war II, so the risk must have seemed low by comparison. Similarly, the 1990s probably had a bunch of risks which we have solved now---e.g. cars are safer now, and violent crime is lower. So we start worrying about higher-hanging fruit, such as children's commute to school.

jessep 12y ago

Reading this, I felt real anger at our society. I have 1 year old twin girls and I am genuinely scared and saddened by the limitations that paranoid adults are going to put on us as parents, and them as children. We live in a world driven by fear detached from the real risks and joys of life.

xrange 12y ago
>Reading this, I felt real anger at our society. I think everybody feels this way. I have a hard time imagining that anything but the vast majority of parents would agree. So that makes we wonder if there is some agenda behind this? A gas lighting effect maybe? People would say "well things may not be ideal where I live, but at least it is not like over there", and so they are less likely to act to change things locally? I don't know, maybe I'm just being paranoid.
- randallsquared 12y ago
  > I think everybody feels this way. I have a hard time imagining that anything but the vast majority of parents would agree. I think this is typical mind fallacy. Most parents, especially in these days of tiny family sizes, are probably more heavily protective than parents used to be. I was ten in 1983, and for most of my childhood my only present parent was of the same age as most of my peers' grandparents (all of my siblings were boomers), and the difference in protectiveness was noticeable: I could stay out for hours at any time of the day or night when I was 13 and 14, except for times that were scheduled (school, church, and homework, basically). He wasn't surprised if he didn't see me for the entire weekend at that age.
- ashark 12y ago
  I think the main reason is that the police feel like they have to do something about any complaint of this sort, because they'll be fed to the media sharks on the off chance that something does happen, even if it's some unrelated incident[1]. So all it takes is one idiot making a complaint and the police feel like they must act because that's safer for them and for the department than if they don't. No-one's going to lose their job or any money over the linked story, so that's the safe option. [1] "Could the police be partly to blame for so-and-so's disappearance? Here's the story of how our police ignored reports of vulnerable children in the weeks before this horrible event."

wtbob 12y ago

> Danielle and Alexander Meitiv say they are being investigated for neglect for the Dec. 20 trek… 'Trek'? It was a mile walk! Not a big deal. This country has become insane.

pnathan 12y ago

I am looking for a house in part based on the criteria of letting my (future) children be able to get on transit or their bike and be independent as soon as reasonable. There is no reason I need to be in a helicopter over the children until they are 16 or whenever the government lets them drive. With respect to kidnapping, abuse, etc, the larger danger is friends and family, not strangers. It is a fact that America is much closer to 1950s levels of safety in the 2010s. John Paul Jones joined the Navy at 13. Why hold your children back? edit: I see these stories come out of NYC, DC, etc. Are there similar reports from places that are, ahem, more known for freedom, i.e., Utah, Wyoming, etc?

justthisonce1 12y ago

I grew up in Manhattan in 80's, early 90's... by 4th grade/age 10 pretty much the whole class came to school by themselves - there is no school bus service in Manhattan kids get buss passes (handed out at school) to use on the buses and subways... Additionally, most of our parents gave us $5-10 dollars that we were not to spend but keep with us at all time as "mugging money" - so that we had something to give up if we were mugged. Apparently, a whole generation of parents were "neglecting" their kids...

spiritplumber 12y ago

I biked to school from grade 6 to grade 13 (Italy, we have 5 years of high school). Walked to school before, but it was only a few blocks. I moved to Texas for university, and people looked at me funny because I preferred to bike around if it was less than a couple miles.

emeraldd 12y ago
It Texas we have this thing called summer ... There are hotter times/places, but it's enough ;) On a more serious note, the size of the state is enough to pretty much force people to own cars/drive on a daily basis. At least that's been my experience.

chpp 12y ago

For reference, I graduated HS in 2005 so my childhood was mid to late 90s. My friends and I used to tell our parents were were all going to each others houses and then ride our bikes all around town, through construction sites, abandoned factories, down highways, etc. None of us were abducted, died, injuries happen but who doesn't fall off their bike now and then ;) The only times cops were involved were when someone called them. Cops would show up, talk to us, then leave once they knew we weren't making trouble and were safe. Never followed up on us or our parents. The only scary situation is once we were playing paintball and someone said a bunch of kids with guns are running around, cops showed up, searched us then went home laughing. I think the difference today is all related to liability and the helicopter culture it created. Maybe the cops are just CYAing themselves by involving CPS. Maybe the cops didn't like the parents attitude and involved CPS. There is a huge stigma today about being up your kids ass and if you're not, you're a bad parent. Politicians and the media bank big time on pushing these "morals" and punishing anyone who thinks differently. It's not something that will be fixed tomorrow. I look at the kids in my neighborhood and I feel sad for them. They wont have the experience I had. I am sure everyone feels that way though, the only difference is 15 years ago no one was going to jail or losing their kids over politics. My comment is a little all-over-the-place but my point is, raising a kid in America is too dangerous of a risk for me and it's a sad thing to think about. The cultural fixes are all very obvious but then what will the news talk about? What will politicians campaign about? How can our leaders show they are "tough on the issues" unless they are relentlessly hammering insanity? I always think of a quote from The Other Guys when topics like this come up because the solution is so obviously simple but so obviously never going to happen... Gamble: What about nine million socially-conscious and unified citizens, all just stepping up and doing their part?

RIMR 12y ago
I used to ride my bike out of the county when I was in Elementary school. The worst thing that ever happened was that some redneck threw a beer bottle at me and knocked me off my bike. I got his license plate number and phoned the police. In the semi-rural area I had managed to bike to (about ten miles from my house) the police could care less about why I was biking, They thanked me for the info, made sure I was ok, and sent me on my way. Phoned my mother later (i borrowed her cell phone so I could call home while biking) to tell her that they caught the guy and were charging him with assault of a minor and DWI. I just had to speak to an officer on the phone for about 10 minutes and that was the end of that. Now we apparently are considering taking children away from their parents because they were allowed to be 1/2 mile from their homes unattended? Was I born in the last decade where one could experience childhood?

Kenji 12y ago

Children already have way too few rights. I don't like the direction our society is moving in. You can't just take away rights of a minority, especially children. Getting taken in by the police is probably more harmful and scarring than anything that could have happened to them (with a non-negligible probability) on their short way.

jwatte 12y ago

I'm 45. I walked alone to and from school every day of my youth since I was 7. My kids do the same. This is totally normal. However, some states are still ruled by people who want to teach creationism, or legislate that pi is 3, because America values freedom to ignore observable evidence in favor of opinion.

jff 12y ago
> some states are still ruled by people who want to teach creationism, or legislate that pi is 3 sweet dig but this is Maryland we're talking about, they go in for a different kind of loony there.

xrange 12y ago

So, I'm not up to speed on this issue, but can anyone give a brief summary or link describing why we need a special "extra-legal" department like CPS? Extra-legal probably isn't the exact wording I'm looking for, but why couldn't issues of excessive cruelty to children be handled in the standard manner, with due-process, etc.? I suppose I only hear about the outliers of extreme overreach, but it seems like CPS attracts busybodies with power complexes. And there is a potential that there is more of a backstory here that we aren't hearing about. Is there a compelling reason we shouldn't we shut these agencies down, or at least greatly curtail their activities? Or at the very least, fire everyone who was involved in this particular investigation?

sophacles 12y ago
Mostly it comes down to: division of labor is a thing. CPS is responsible for things like foster care, finding if parents are (truly) neglectful and abusive, helping teach ignorant parents how to not kill their kids accidentally, and other related things. In most of the work they do, it is just due process - Our society has decided that when a parent goes to jail, or is ordered into an institution, or what not, and does so while caring for children and having no backup means for caring for those children, we shouldn't throw those kids out on the street and hope they survive. In the case of neglect and abuse - it's apparent to people trained to find it (even in clear cut cases) but not as often noticable just by a quick glance: A common tactic of abusers is to hide it to the outside world, and scare the abused into lying about it - cops are trained to handle one situation, CPS investigators are trained to handle this different one. (Much like we have forensic accountants investigate financial crime and homicide detectives investigate murder). When cops overstep and murder random people - the response is "well they have hard jobs, and they are trained to be safe", but when CPS oversteps and asks some uncomfortable questions, its "busybodies". Why does no one say "well they also get kids into homes rather than putting them on the street, and they see a lot of horrible abuse cases and are maybe a bit overcautious"? Do you in general disagree with the notion of specialization and division of labor, or is it a knee-jerk reaction to the fact that "government" is doing it? Why do you want to automatically shut down an agency that does a lot of good, because some bureaucrat is overstepping (or legally mandated to do so, whatever the case may be)?

brd 12y ago

For me, the way we treat children has become the shining example of how broken our society has become (in the US at least). I'm appalled by the lack of freedom kids have these days. I'm appalled by how many parents opt to stick a tablet in front of a kid instead of parenting. From an objective perspective, it really does look like we're trying to breed the most narrow minded, most uninquisitive, most docile versions of ourselves possible and I'm mortified by this trend.

godkingjim 12y ago

Peoples perception of the probability of criminal victimization is directly tied to the frequncy and intensity of media reporting on criminal activity.

jacquesm 12y ago

At the grand old age of 9 or so I walked all over Amsterdam and my mom being a 'working single mom' from when I was 6 taught my sister (aged 4) and me to hold hands during the road crossings and to walk to the traffic light, cross, the walk back the other way to get to school (about 1.5 km away from where we lived). Nobody ever batted an eye and definitely were not the kids living furthest from school and not the only ones walking unsupervised. I'm pretty happy I didn't grow up in a nanny state where I'd have been more or less confined to the house or where my mom would have had to give up her job just so we could be sheparded to school and back twice per day. This was all around 1971, I'm not sure how many parents let their children that age walk alone to school in Amsterdam today. Traffic is much heavier than it was back then (more cars, comparatively fewer bicycles) and definitely more aggressive. Still, people respect the traffic lights (especially cars, bicycles less so) and I'm pretty sure that that route could be walked safely by a 6 and a 4 year old with proper instruction and a parent that has confidence in their abilities. Whatever would happen I doubt that that parent would be investigated for neglect. In Canada (or so I was told) leaving your 10 year old unattended in the house could lead to trouble with child protection services.

jrs235 12y ago

The perception is that CPS workers are egomaniacs that think they can't be wrong and many appear power hungry. The sad part is for ever time CPS "sign and agree or we'll make your life hell and take your children" they end up screwing up and failing a child in real need. Their mentality is similar to that perceived of police forces... "you might beat the rap but you can't beat the ride... now comply!" (regardless of whether they are in the right or not) ADD: It would seem that CPS focuses on making hell for parents who challenge them instead of focusing on protecting children. They'll invest more time and energy in showing people "who's the boss" than just using some common sense and intelligent passive monitoring. Google "CPS failed"

PseudoRoach 12y ago
Yea, my wife and I have had a run in with cps, luckily nothing bad came of it. For a while though I was constantly thinking of the kids that actually are in an abusive situation and haven't been helped by these cps jerks who would rather waste their time threatening to shatter everything I live for. And yes, I tried to stand up to them and they threatened to remove our kids. Wtf? How can it be so easy for an entity to just do that? Something really wrong with that.

pmontra 12y ago

Different country and different times but at 10 I walked to and from school alone, probably also before that age, can't remember. It would have been odd to go there with a parent, are you a mummy's boy? Furthermore everybody did it, no danger at all with the exception of one road crossing. One or two years later I started walking to that very same school with my younger brother before going to my new one. They started at the same time but luckily they were only a couple of blocks apart so I could manage. I sympathize for those kids and their parents and I'm worried seeing the same things happening here. Luckily no police involved, only apprehensive and omnipresent parents.

goodcanadian 12y ago

"'The number one cause of death for children of their age is a car accident.'” They're children. What else are they going to die of?

giarc 12y ago
Measles. Just a joke, but you're correct. There risk of most major life threatening diseases (cancer, lung disease, etc) are near 0 and therefore MVAs do kill the most.
dalke 12y ago
Gun-related deaths, drowning, suffocation are next on the list at http://www.childdeathreview.org/nationalchildmortalitydata.htm http://www.childdeathreview.org/nationalchildmortalitydata.h... . However, motor injury outnumbers all of the other listed fatalities due to unintentional injury. A lot of the numbers in that list are due to infants <1 year old. The CDC more generically says "malignant neoplasms" - cancer - is about 55% as likely as as unintentional injury for the ages of the children in the report. http://www.cdc.gov/injury/images/lc-charts/leading_causes_of_death_by_age_group_2012-a.gif http://www.cdc.gov/injury/images/lc-charts/leading_causes_of... To answer your question, gun-related deaths and cancer.

chris_wot 12y ago

This might be off topic, but go check Google News for "meitiv", and look at how much spam is there from The Week!

danielweber 12y ago
I don't see any.

talmand 12y ago

A few here are giving examples of how this kind of thing wasn't a problem when they were a kid. I had similar experiences. But, I want to say that I actively do not allow my children to play in our front yard. Not because I'm afraid a stranger will take them, not because I'm afraid they'll wander into the street to get hit by a car, not because I'm afraid they'll get hurt without an adult present, not because I'm afraid they'll wonder off to get lost. The reason I don't let them play in the front yard? I'm afraid a neighbor will report me and the government will come take my kids away. This is the true tragedy of these stories, society has only traded one type of fear for another that is potentially far worse in nature.

lucisferre 12y ago
I wonder how many of your neighbours feel the same as you. I wonder, if after seeing your kids play in the front yard, how many would respond in kind, letting their kids outside to play with yours, assuming that if one parent was willing then they wouldn't feel so guilty about it. I suppose we just don't live in that kind of world anymore. I used to play the suburbs with other kids, we were rarely in the backyard, going around on the cul-de-sac and the windy roads of suburbia. By the time I was about 10 or 11 I had biked across the entire city. My daughter is 3, we live in the city, but there are kids. The roads are busier and the neighbourhood more crowded with more cars now. I'm not sure if I'll have the same attitude. Funnily as grandparents even my parents seem much more reluctant, and worried about my daughter than they were about us.
jrs235 12y ago
So true. If anyone other than an officer or CPS agent takes your children, they will face consequences and justice has an opportunity to prevail. If an officer or CPS agent takes your children justice never enters the equation and consequences don't exist for them. ADD: What can you do? "You might be able to beat the rap but you can't beat the ride. Now comply." In such situations you really are powerless. The worst kind of fear and situation, one where you are powerless.
deleted 12y ago
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nextweek2 12y ago

There are two counter points that are not covered. Kids getting hurt in car accidents doesn't distinguish between them being in the car or being hit by a car. All of the car accidents I have heard where a child was hurt have been when the kid was crossing. Secondly, its not a question of if the world is safer. The issue is with how litigious the world is, if the cops hadn't called CPS and something was wrong they would have gotten in trouble, if the CPS hadn't followed standard operating procedure their jobs would have been on the line. In my opinion, as a parent, the people to blame are the over protective parents that call for "Think of the children" laws/rule just because of statistically insignificant tragedies.

cafard 12y ago

As a boomer, I think of this from time to time. One point that strikes me is that there were a lot of maternal eyes exercising loose but not infrequent surveillance. And there weren't a lot of latch-key kids around back then: moms knew when school got out, when would be a reasonable time for the kid to show up, dump the book bag and run out back to play. And adults didn't mind leaning out the door and rebuking you if they thought they should. Admittedly, I remember only the case of the lady who objected to a couple of us kicking snow at each other and incidentally onto her well-cleaned sidewalk. http://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2014/08/03 http://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2014/08/03

landofthebrave 12y ago

>At first he refused, saying he needed to talk to a lawyer, his wife said, but changed his mind when he was told his children would be removed if he did not comply. Protecting children from abduction, by abducting them. GG America!

ianbicking 12y ago

I was curious about laws and such (since they said in the article that children under eight were legally supposed to be under supervision in that jurisdiction), and came upon this study on unsupervised kids: http://www.childtrends.org/wp-content/uploads/2003/04/unsupervisedRB.pdf http://www.childtrends.org/wp-content/uploads/2003/04/unsupe... That says that 7% of kids age 6-9 are under self care. Not a huge percentage, but millions of kids. Which is to say, there's nothing unusual about kids on their own – but maybe to avoid criticism, keep them hidden away inside when they are on their own.