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The use of flash bangs by law enforcement is horrifying. These tools were design for to support direct action missions by special operations forces, and are, e

The use of flash bangs by law enforcement is horrifying. These tools were design for to support direct action missions by special operations forces, and are, essentially, burning thermite [1] (e.g. able to melt through an engine block). To be clear, a direct operation mission is the use of lethal force to kill or capture one or more individuals or perform high risk hostage rescue. In these types of military operations, the operators run a extreme risk of severe injury or death and the death of the targets is both acceptable and highly likely. The balance of the risks and the battlefield circumstances make their use acceptable. However, law enforcement is rarely permitted to operate under these types of conditions. Their goal should almost always be capture working under the Fourth Amendment presumption of innocence. As such, flash bangs are simply not congruent with law enforcement operations. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite Edit: grammer and thermite link

mikeryan 12y ago
There's a recent case in Albuquerque where 2 police officers are being charged with murder. In the case the police disorient a guy with a flashbang then shoot him as he turns away The police video shows Boyd talking with an officer who was seemingly trying to reach an end to the stalemate. As he picks up his backpack, Boyd tells the officer to keep his word, and not to worry about safety. "I'm not a [f———] murderer," Boyd says. Seconds later, a flash-bang grenade is fired at his feet. Boyd then stands facing the officers — and as he turns away from them, at least two officers open fire. Boyd was struck by live rounds, stun guns and bean-bag rounds — some of which were fired as Boyd lay on the ground saying he was unable to move. http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2015/01/12/376767254/albuquerque-police-officers-face-murder-charges-over-2014-shooting http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2015/01/12/376767254/alb...
- girvo 12y ago
  Jesus... that's completely indefensible. Now, I don't live in the US, and I only see the bad stuff that happens through the media, but I truly can't see why the police need to do things this way...
  - zanny 12y ago
    They don't have to. There are plenty of good cops, but your mileage will vary with the integrity of the local PD. There are these hot beds of systemically bad police precincts and the power structure is organized such that those who could fix it are also those initiating it. A large contributing factor is the military industrial complex spewing out death tech at an absurd rate, and with nobody to blow up with it all it just goes to police forces at auction. So you end up with towns of a thousand having swat teams and tanks and you wonder why the culture shifts from protecting and serving to war, death, and extortion.
    - fixedd 12y ago
      There's 2.5k people in my town and it's news here (literally) when someone is arrested shopping at the local Wal-Mart. The police have two miltary-issue Humvees, for some reason.
      - base2 12y ago
        That stuff has always irked me, trying to look threatening/intimidating. However when most people complain about military gear finding its way to police I have to laugh a little bit. When automatic grenade launchers and .50 cal machine guns start appearing then there are problems(too late at that point I guess). MWRAPS and armored personnel carriers, those are okay. Dressing in all black(A horrible tactical color BTW) or camo now your just doing that to look upsetting. The armored tanks are not so bad as it provides something that police can feel safer and less threaten in so escalation doesn't need to happen so fast.
        EliRivers 12y ago
        The armored tanks are not so bad as it provides something that police can feel safer and less threaten in so escalation doesn't need to happen so fast. If you turn up in an armoured tank, you have just escalated the situation.
        12y ago
- IkmoIkmo 12y ago
  For anyone interested in the video: Warning it's graphical, naturally. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tpAZObNZfI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tpAZObNZfI To summarize, indeed he says 'Im not a murderer' while picking up his bag, just standing around. They fire the grenade, tell him to get down blabla. He never steps forward in any way, charges them or attacks, while the officers close in and put a dog on him. Seconds later he turns away and gets shot multiple times. From this point on he's not moving at all and just laying there. They shoot him a couple times with bean bags and put the dog on him again. I don't hear him saying he's unable to move. It just looks like he's unconscious or dead at that point. He's just laying there still while they're deliberating whether to put the dog on him (and do).
  - Rainymood 12y ago
    And this is the problem with guns, imagine if the police didn't have any guns and they would have to approach him by first. Obviously they outnumber him but know (unless he has a lethal weapon on him) there shouldn't be any lethal force. Guns escalate the situation way too quickly to a life threatening one ...
    - k-mcgrady 12y ago
      That's how it works in the UK I think. Police don't regularly carry firearms and specially trained firearms officers are called in when necessary. I think the problem with this approach in the US is that guns are way more available and way more likely to used in a crime (I don't actually have figures on this but it seems a reasonable assumption). Edit: Replaced incorrect use of 'weapons' with 'firearms'.
      - robin_reala 12y ago
        Police carry weapons (truncheons, pepper spray, sometimes tasers), just not firearms by default.
        k-mcgrady 12y ago
username223 12y ago
For a more hilarious use of military tech by police, see this video by Doraville, GA police of their "track-y fun-box" (a.k.a. "tank," sorry for the ear-splitting levels): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kajhu7qgojU You have to wonder what threats they face among their population of 8,000 citizens in north-central Georgia.
- xeromal 12y ago
  I grew up in Ellijay, GA and many police offers were bullies in my highschool. The city doesn't really have the cream of the crop or the pay to choose otherwise.
  - username223 12y ago
    When your job ads say "not much pay, but you get to carry a big gun and scare people with it," this is what you get. I wish cops and primary/secondary teachers were paid enough that the people reading this post would consider those jobs, because they kind of matter.
    - click170 12y ago
      Seems like a chicken and egg problem. They barely deserve the salary they get now with all the incidents going on, but they won't get more intelligent people applying until the wages are increased. Probably best to start with the teachers so theres a larger pool if educated people to hire from.
      - username223 12y ago
        According to BLS, coders make something like $93k/yr [1], while policemen make about $57k [2], and primary school teachers make $53k [3]. How much of a pay cut would you take to accept one of those jobs? How much more in taxes would you pay to hire/train better people to do those jobs? [1] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/Software-developers.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/S... [2] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Protective-Service/Police-and-detectives.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Protective-Service/Police-and-detecti... [3] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Education-Training-and-Library/Kindergarten-and-elementary-school-teachers.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Education-Training-and-Library/Kinder...
hga 12y ago
"In these types of military operations, the operators run a extreme risk of severe injury or death and the death of the targets is both acceptable and highly likely." I'd submit to you that both of these are arguably true, once the all too routine decision to take "direct action" has been made: America is a legally well armed society, and these home invasions are indistinguishable from ones done by Official Criminals, especially since the latter are known to pretend to be police. That "the death of the targets is" entirely "acceptable" should be evident to any unbiased observer of these direct actions. Especially since the Badge Gang, as some are taking to call them, are almost never held to account; if ever there was a case to do that, the one of Bou Bou's maiming should have been.
refurb 12y ago
and are, essentially, burning thermite What makes you think flashbangs contain thermite? From what I can tell they contain a small amount of explosives[1]. The filler consists of a pyrotechnic metal-oxidant mix of magnesium or aluminium, and an oxidizer such as ammonium perchlorate or potassium perchlorate. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stun_grenade http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stun_grenade
- EthanHeilman 12y ago
  If I remember my chemistry correctly, thermite = aluminium + an oxidizer. So the filler you are describing is thermite. Edit: I worry I may be incorrect. Thermite seems like a very odd thing to put in a flash bang. Perhaps it is only a thermite mixture but the reaction is different?
  - refurb 12y ago
    No biggie. Thermite is a mixture of a metal and a metal oxide, typically aluminum and iron oxide (which is an oxidizer). Thermite specifically converts the iron oxide to iron metal (very exothermic). That's why they use it to repair rail lines, etc. If you replace the iron oxide with another oxidizer, it's not really thermite (since no iron metal is produced) and it turns it from a very exothermic reaction into an explosion (with the right oxidizer). They do make thermite grenades, but they are typically used to destroy equipment, not make a loud sound (as flashbangs are). If the police were using thermite grenades for raids, that would be even more horrifying than it already is.
    - base2 12y ago
      I'm glad someone in this thread knows about thermite. Thermite also burns pretty slow(comparably) and having to roll into an area that has thermite burning everywhere is just plain....silly? I'm just going to throw this bucket of gasoline and a lit zippo into this room before I enter it!
- datasink 12y ago
  A mixture of potassium chlorate and aluminum powder is the original composition for M-80 firecrackers. Potassium perchlorate is a modern day swap-in. I imagine the flash bang composition is tweaked to increase the flash.
mc32 12y ago
You pretty bang on. I think the unfortunate thing is that it has become an arms race. The police up their arms in response to civilians-gone-bad having heavier weapons. If I were in the police, I can imagine I'd feel safer riding in a tank to take down a suspected 'dangerous' criminal too. I think in some ways, this is a result of our fondness for the second amendment rights and arms as well as accepting the police as a necessary force to keep the peace. I'm not sure if there is an easy way to de-escalate things. We might start with police 'engagement' procedures standardized from a federal level --but there'd probably be pushback from the states. I do have a quibble with _always_ presuming innocence. If you see someone in the act, then I think they can take action without such presumption. One of the specially hard things for me to understand is the necessity to shoot at 'disturbed' people wielding knives. Yes, I know knives are deadly --however, knives don't travel very far, compared to firearms, why not back up, give them a safe distance and try to de-escalate before shooting at the 'lunge.' Again, I know most of those disturbed people do mean harm[1], but you can avoid their intended harm by giving them space. [1] Some intending assisted but unintended suicide from the police.
- base2 12y ago
  I think you would be interested in how fast someone can move in with a knife. Anyways, you give them space and they bolt away and stab or take hostage the next person they encounter. There are so many what ifs in these situations then end badly that you don't even want to let it get to that point. If "lunging" was the only thing knife welding psychos could do the world would be much nicer place.
  - mc32 12y ago
    In some situations that is a concern (hostages, bystanders) but my understanding is SOP means getting bystanders out of the way ASAP and dealing with the disturbed person. It's not like the police are six feet from them, they typically have a good cushion of space (and should take more) and take every chance to deescalate --throw fishing net at them, whatever, but use lethal force as last resort, not at the first lunge.
  - pjc50 12y ago
base2 12y ago
Military grade stun grenades don't use thermite. Military stun grenades can barely burn anything(I have tried many many times but that's another story). hearing about people getting getting third degree burns has me wonder what are they building these things with for law enforcement usage.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
hessenwolf 12y ago
Does anybody else know about Thermite from the Jolly Roger's cookbook? I think that file, on a 486 laptop owned by my friend's mid-life-crisis separated father, was my life's best illicit thrill.

mikeryan 12y ago

There's a recent case in Albuquerque where 2 police officers are being charged with murder. In the case the police disorient a guy with a flashbang then shoot him as he turns away The police video shows Boyd talking with an officer who was seemingly trying to reach an end to the stalemate. As he picks up his backpack, Boyd tells the officer to keep his word, and not to worry about safety. "I'm not a [f———] murderer," Boyd says. Seconds later, a flash-bang grenade is fired at his feet. Boyd then stands facing the officers — and as he turns away from them, at least two officers open fire. Boyd was struck by live rounds, stun guns and bean-bag rounds — some of which were fired as Boyd lay on the ground saying he was unable to move. http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2015/01/12/376767254/albuquerque-police-officers-face-murder-charges-over-2014-shooting http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2015/01/12/376767254/alb...

girvo 12y ago
Jesus... that's completely indefensible. Now, I don't live in the US, and I only see the bad stuff that happens through the media, but I truly can't see why the police need to do things this way...
- zanny 12y ago
  They don't have to. There are plenty of good cops, but your mileage will vary with the integrity of the local PD. There are these hot beds of systemically bad police precincts and the power structure is organized such that those who could fix it are also those initiating it. A large contributing factor is the military industrial complex spewing out death tech at an absurd rate, and with nobody to blow up with it all it just goes to police forces at auction. So you end up with towns of a thousand having swat teams and tanks and you wonder why the culture shifts from protecting and serving to war, death, and extortion.
  - fixedd 12y ago
    There's 2.5k people in my town and it's news here (literally) when someone is arrested shopping at the local Wal-Mart. The police have two miltary-issue Humvees, for some reason.
    - base2 12y ago
      That stuff has always irked me, trying to look threatening/intimidating. However when most people complain about military gear finding its way to police I have to laugh a little bit. When automatic grenade launchers and .50 cal machine guns start appearing then there are problems(too late at that point I guess). MWRAPS and armored personnel carriers, those are okay. Dressing in all black(A horrible tactical color BTW) or camo now your just doing that to look upsetting. The armored tanks are not so bad as it provides something that police can feel safer and less threaten in so escalation doesn't need to happen so fast.
      - EliRivers 12y ago
        The armored tanks are not so bad as it provides something that police can feel safer and less threaten in so escalation doesn't need to happen so fast. If you turn up in an armoured tank, you have just escalated the situation.
        12y ago
IkmoIkmo 12y ago
For anyone interested in the video: Warning it's graphical, naturally. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tpAZObNZfI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tpAZObNZfI To summarize, indeed he says 'Im not a murderer' while picking up his bag, just standing around. They fire the grenade, tell him to get down blabla. He never steps forward in any way, charges them or attacks, while the officers close in and put a dog on him. Seconds later he turns away and gets shot multiple times. From this point on he's not moving at all and just laying there. They shoot him a couple times with bean bags and put the dog on him again. I don't hear him saying he's unable to move. It just looks like he's unconscious or dead at that point. He's just laying there still while they're deliberating whether to put the dog on him (and do).
- Rainymood 12y ago
  And this is the problem with guns, imagine if the police didn't have any guns and they would have to approach him by first. Obviously they outnumber him but know (unless he has a lethal weapon on him) there shouldn't be any lethal force. Guns escalate the situation way too quickly to a life threatening one ...
  - k-mcgrady 12y ago
    That's how it works in the UK I think. Police don't regularly carry firearms and specially trained firearms officers are called in when necessary. I think the problem with this approach in the US is that guns are way more available and way more likely to used in a crime (I don't actually have figures on this but it seems a reasonable assumption). Edit: Replaced incorrect use of 'weapons' with 'firearms'.
    - robin_reala 12y ago
      Police carry weapons (truncheons, pepper spray, sometimes tasers), just not firearms by default.
      - k-mcgrady 12y ago

username223 12y ago

For a more hilarious use of military tech by police, see this video by Doraville, GA police of their "track-y fun-box" (a.k.a. "tank," sorry for the ear-splitting levels): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kajhu7qgojU You have to wonder what threats they face among their population of 8,000 citizens in north-central Georgia.

xeromal 12y ago
I grew up in Ellijay, GA and many police offers were bullies in my highschool. The city doesn't really have the cream of the crop or the pay to choose otherwise.
- username223 12y ago
  When your job ads say "not much pay, but you get to carry a big gun and scare people with it," this is what you get. I wish cops and primary/secondary teachers were paid enough that the people reading this post would consider those jobs, because they kind of matter.
  - click170 12y ago
    Seems like a chicken and egg problem. They barely deserve the salary they get now with all the incidents going on, but they won't get more intelligent people applying until the wages are increased. Probably best to start with the teachers so theres a larger pool if educated people to hire from.
    - username223 12y ago
      According to BLS, coders make something like $93k/yr [1], while policemen make about $57k [2], and primary school teachers make $53k [3]. How much of a pay cut would you take to accept one of those jobs? How much more in taxes would you pay to hire/train better people to do those jobs? [1] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/Software-developers.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/S... [2] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Protective-Service/Police-and-detectives.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Protective-Service/Police-and-detecti... [3] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Education-Training-and-Library/Kindergarten-and-elementary-school-teachers.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Education-Training-and-Library/Kinder...

hga 12y ago

"In these types of military operations, the operators run a extreme risk of severe injury or death and the death of the targets is both acceptable and highly likely." I'd submit to you that both of these are arguably true, once the all too routine decision to take "direct action" has been made: America is a legally well armed society, and these home invasions are indistinguishable from ones done by Official Criminals, especially since the latter are known to pretend to be police. That "the death of the targets is" entirely "acceptable" should be evident to any unbiased observer of these direct actions. Especially since the Badge Gang, as some are taking to call them, are almost never held to account; if ever there was a case to do that, the one of Bou Bou's maiming should have been.

refurb 12y ago

and are, essentially, burning thermite What makes you think flashbangs contain thermite? From what I can tell they contain a small amount of explosives[1]. The filler consists of a pyrotechnic metal-oxidant mix of magnesium or aluminium, and an oxidizer such as ammonium perchlorate or potassium perchlorate. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stun_grenade http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stun_grenade

EthanHeilman 12y ago
If I remember my chemistry correctly, thermite = aluminium + an oxidizer. So the filler you are describing is thermite. Edit: I worry I may be incorrect. Thermite seems like a very odd thing to put in a flash bang. Perhaps it is only a thermite mixture but the reaction is different?
- refurb 12y ago
  No biggie. Thermite is a mixture of a metal and a metal oxide, typically aluminum and iron oxide (which is an oxidizer). Thermite specifically converts the iron oxide to iron metal (very exothermic). That's why they use it to repair rail lines, etc. If you replace the iron oxide with another oxidizer, it's not really thermite (since no iron metal is produced) and it turns it from a very exothermic reaction into an explosion (with the right oxidizer). They do make thermite grenades, but they are typically used to destroy equipment, not make a loud sound (as flashbangs are). If the police were using thermite grenades for raids, that would be even more horrifying than it already is.
  - base2 12y ago
    I'm glad someone in this thread knows about thermite. Thermite also burns pretty slow(comparably) and having to roll into an area that has thermite burning everywhere is just plain....silly? I'm just going to throw this bucket of gasoline and a lit zippo into this room before I enter it!
datasink 12y ago
A mixture of potassium chlorate and aluminum powder is the original composition for M-80 firecrackers. Potassium perchlorate is a modern day swap-in. I imagine the flash bang composition is tweaked to increase the flash.

mc32 12y ago

You pretty bang on. I think the unfortunate thing is that it has become an arms race. The police up their arms in response to civilians-gone-bad having heavier weapons. If I were in the police, I can imagine I'd feel safer riding in a tank to take down a suspected 'dangerous' criminal too. I think in some ways, this is a result of our fondness for the second amendment rights and arms as well as accepting the police as a necessary force to keep the peace. I'm not sure if there is an easy way to de-escalate things. We might start with police 'engagement' procedures standardized from a federal level --but there'd probably be pushback from the states. I do have a quibble with _always_ presuming innocence. If you see someone in the act, then I think they can take action without such presumption. One of the specially hard things for me to understand is the necessity to shoot at 'disturbed' people wielding knives. Yes, I know knives are deadly --however, knives don't travel very far, compared to firearms, why not back up, give them a safe distance and try to de-escalate before shooting at the 'lunge.' Again, I know most of those disturbed people do mean harm[1], but you can avoid their intended harm by giving them space. [1] Some intending assisted but unintended suicide from the police.

base2 12y ago
I think you would be interested in how fast someone can move in with a knife. Anyways, you give them space and they bolt away and stab or take hostage the next person they encounter. There are so many what ifs in these situations then end badly that you don't even want to let it get to that point. If "lunging" was the only thing knife welding psychos could do the world would be much nicer place.
- mc32 12y ago
  In some situations that is a concern (hostages, bystanders) but my understanding is SOP means getting bystanders out of the way ASAP and dealing with the disturbed person. It's not like the police are six feet from them, they typically have a good cushion of space (and should take more) and take every chance to deescalate --throw fishing net at them, whatever, but use lethal force as last resort, not at the first lunge.
- pjc50 12y ago

base2 12y ago

Military grade stun grenades don't use thermite. Military stun grenades can barely burn anything(I have tried many many times but that's another story). hearing about people getting getting third degree burns has me wonder what are they building these things with for law enforcement usage.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

hessenwolf 12y ago

Does anybody else know about Thermite from the Jolly Roger's cookbook? I think that file, on a 486 laptop owned by my friend's mid-life-crisis separated father, was my life's best illicit thrill.