7 ms·

"What's wrong with this country? Can't a man walk down the street without being offered a job!?"

delucain 12y ago
Sure, it's a VERY extreme example of "First World Problems" or whatever the meme is, but do you want a job when the offer is a con from the start? What kind of relationship with your employer does that create?
- lugg 12y ago
  I've been feeling for a while now, software developers need agents. I only talk to one recruiter. If I want a particular job I know is going I will direct him to it and he will handle any side lining from other recruiters. Works a treat.
  - prbuckley 12y ago
    My friend Altay started a software developer agency. Altay is a great guy and YC alum. You might want to check it out, http://www.10xmanagement.com/ http://www.10xmanagement.com/
  - hkmurakami 12y ago
    An acquaintance of mine (she used to be a den herself) wrote here about why engineers today don't have agents. http://blog.alinelerner.com/why-talent-agents-for-engineers-dont-exist/ http://blog.alinelerner.com/why-talent-agents-for-engineers-...
    - kngspook 12y ago
      I've worked with Aline. She's fucking awesome.
  - logicallee 12y ago
    Hi. we're working on this. can you imagine what, if any, part of this could be done purely online? what would your top three features be? (in an actual, online agent, actually on your side.)
    - vinceguidry 12y ago
      I can think of a few things. I've recently been on both sides of the table here. Found my job a year and a half ago, interviewing candidates for a junior now. First off, I can see how you might miss out on a lot of potential clients because you don't know just how good they are. You could reduce this miss rate by getting good at fishing out details from people you approach or who approach you. Even be prepared to write their resumes. I'd recommend having a technical person on staff to assist with the buzzword bingo and alphabet soup. Second, a lot of people simply might not know how to negotiate a job search, but wouldn't really be lucrative enough to chase as clients. By-the-hour consulting might turn into a decent revenue stream. Then they can come to you in a few years when they are ready to chase the big bucks. Third, there's a lot of wishful thinking out there that causes seekers to not chase or turn down perfectly good jobs because of that haunting vision of landing that whopper $120K+ job. (in Atlanta) Being able to tactfully talk them into a perfectly good $85K job could work out well for both of you. I've seen lots of really good guys strike out interviewing for those unicorn jobs because the company has ridiculously selective criteria. I know a guy holding out for $110K but doesn't want to go where he could legitimately make that money with his skills, e.g. a Java shop. He spent down his savings and told me it's going to hurt pretty soon if he doesn't find one soon.
      - logicallee 12y ago
        Thank you for this. (We are very technical, and building an online application, which is what I meant by "purely online", though. i.e. features we could bring online via an online/web agent that is on your side rather than the side of companies.)
        vinceguidry 12y ago
        Oof. I foresee a hard road ahead of you if can't bring on someone knowledgeable with the actual interpersonal dynamics of hiring. Reason is this isn't a technical problem, it's a social one. One of the things that the recruiter who found me my job did for me was to interact with the company for me. I told him my concerns, and he either talked me through them or relayed them, through the filter of someone whose seen this all before, to the company. Had I had to do this directly with the company, I wouldn't have done so well, and I might have gotten passed over. When my company wanted to keep me on a contract basis three months after his job was technically over, and I was prepared to walk, I called him, and he calmed everyone down and got the company to bring me on full time. Had I had to negotiate it myself, I might have said something unwise and a bad decision would have been made. Now that I'm on the other side of the table, I find myself playing the same role my recruiter played for me as far as the interpersonal dynamics is concerned. I talk through his concerns, I discuss the money aspect with him, advocate his case, and protect him from HR bullshit. I don't see a purely online web agent as bringing any more value to the table than (just another) job board.
sanderjd 12y ago
Yeah all the comments on here about being tricked into job interviews just seem so crazy to me. Is google really so desperate to interview people? I've always heard they get tons of applications and that it's incredibly difficult (and time consuming) to get an offer after an interview with them, so why would they be going through all of this trouble to get people in the funnel? I'm really not sure what to make of it all.
- simi_ 12y ago
  I'm CTO at a small startup in a small-ish city in Germany. Every time we advertise a position we get _tons_ of applicants, and yet that doesn't mean anything. Good and reliable engineers are _very_ hard to find and recruit. We've managed to crop together a rock solid team, but only by sheer dumb luck (and getting burned several times).
  - czbond 12y ago
    As a separate, off topic note, I'm looking to move to Germany from the states (CTO of two prior 'smaller' startups). Where would you look for positions? I'm a damn good engineer - but I can't NOT lead - and all I'm seeing thus far are junior/senior dev positions.
    - iliis 12y ago
      If Switzerland is also an option, we're a small company developing RF-ICs and -modules currently looking for a CEO/CTO. If you are interested in high-frequency electronics, firmware development and a bit of management drop me an email at s.bryner/axsem.com!
      - lordnacho 12y ago
        Hi, I live in Switzerland, have 10 years experience as a CTO, and I'm looking for something new. Where in CH are you? Mind if I email you?
        12y ago
ajarmst 12y ago
I think it's more "What's wrong with this country? Can't a man walk down the street without someone trying to get him to give up something of value for less than it's worth?" The issue's not with being offered a job, it's the "here's a smart person making money for themselves, let's see if we can get them to make money for us instead!" attitude.
- hawkice 12y ago
  This attitude isn't even really a problem (why hire anyone who can't run a surplus in their personal life, if you want them to run a surplus for your business?), the problem is, "let's try to trick this person down a garden path of making money for us" and "I get to decide who this person is, and if I say they're an engineer, that's their identity", both of which are absurd and essentially doomed to be wastes of time for everyone involved.
prawn 12y ago
See Paul Graham's recent article about how even talking to someone about an acquisition can be a huge distraction for someone running a small business.
EliteTruffle 12y ago
Shame on you for being unable to empathize with engineers. Recruiting tactics in this industry should be made illegal as a form of harassment, and people like you aren't helping make that happen.

Sure, it's a VERY extreme example of "First World Problems" or whatever the meme is, but do you want a job when the offer is a con from the start? What kind of relationship with your employer does that create?

lugg 12y ago
I've been feeling for a while now, software developers need agents. I only talk to one recruiter. If I want a particular job I know is going I will direct him to it and he will handle any side lining from other recruiters. Works a treat.
- prbuckley 12y ago
  My friend Altay started a software developer agency. Altay is a great guy and YC alum. You might want to check it out, http://www.10xmanagement.com/ http://www.10xmanagement.com/
- hkmurakami 12y ago
  An acquaintance of mine (she used to be a den herself) wrote here about why engineers today don't have agents. http://blog.alinelerner.com/why-talent-agents-for-engineers-dont-exist/ http://blog.alinelerner.com/why-talent-agents-for-engineers-...
  - kngspook 12y ago
    I've worked with Aline. She's fucking awesome.
- logicallee 12y ago
  Hi. we're working on this. can you imagine what, if any, part of this could be done purely online? what would your top three features be? (in an actual, online agent, actually on your side.)
  - vinceguidry 12y ago
    I can think of a few things. I've recently been on both sides of the table here. Found my job a year and a half ago, interviewing candidates for a junior now. First off, I can see how you might miss out on a lot of potential clients because you don't know just how good they are. You could reduce this miss rate by getting good at fishing out details from people you approach or who approach you. Even be prepared to write their resumes. I'd recommend having a technical person on staff to assist with the buzzword bingo and alphabet soup. Second, a lot of people simply might not know how to negotiate a job search, but wouldn't really be lucrative enough to chase as clients. By-the-hour consulting might turn into a decent revenue stream. Then they can come to you in a few years when they are ready to chase the big bucks. Third, there's a lot of wishful thinking out there that causes seekers to not chase or turn down perfectly good jobs because of that haunting vision of landing that whopper $120K+ job. (in Atlanta) Being able to tactfully talk them into a perfectly good $85K job could work out well for both of you. I've seen lots of really good guys strike out interviewing for those unicorn jobs because the company has ridiculously selective criteria. I know a guy holding out for $110K but doesn't want to go where he could legitimately make that money with his skills, e.g. a Java shop. He spent down his savings and told me it's going to hurt pretty soon if he doesn't find one soon.
    - logicallee 12y ago
      Thank you for this. (We are very technical, and building an online application, which is what I meant by "purely online", though. i.e. features we could bring online via an online/web agent that is on your side rather than the side of companies.)
      - vinceguidry 12y ago
        Oof. I foresee a hard road ahead of you if can't bring on someone knowledgeable with the actual interpersonal dynamics of hiring. Reason is this isn't a technical problem, it's a social one. One of the things that the recruiter who found me my job did for me was to interact with the company for me. I told him my concerns, and he either talked me through them or relayed them, through the filter of someone whose seen this all before, to the company. Had I had to do this directly with the company, I wouldn't have done so well, and I might have gotten passed over. When my company wanted to keep me on a contract basis three months after his job was technically over, and I was prepared to walk, I called him, and he calmed everyone down and got the company to bring me on full time. Had I had to negotiate it myself, I might have said something unwise and a bad decision would have been made. Now that I'm on the other side of the table, I find myself playing the same role my recruiter played for me as far as the interpersonal dynamics is concerned. I talk through his concerns, I discuss the money aspect with him, advocate his case, and protect him from HR bullshit. I don't see a purely online web agent as bringing any more value to the table than (just another) job board.

sanderjd 12y ago

Yeah all the comments on here about being tricked into job interviews just seem so crazy to me. Is google really so desperate to interview people? I've always heard they get tons of applications and that it's incredibly difficult (and time consuming) to get an offer after an interview with them, so why would they be going through all of this trouble to get people in the funnel? I'm really not sure what to make of it all.

simi_ 12y ago
I'm CTO at a small startup in a small-ish city in Germany. Every time we advertise a position we get _tons_ of applicants, and yet that doesn't mean anything. Good and reliable engineers are _very_ hard to find and recruit. We've managed to crop together a rock solid team, but only by sheer dumb luck (and getting burned several times).
- czbond 12y ago
  As a separate, off topic note, I'm looking to move to Germany from the states (CTO of two prior 'smaller' startups). Where would you look for positions? I'm a damn good engineer - but I can't NOT lead - and all I'm seeing thus far are junior/senior dev positions.
  - iliis 12y ago
    If Switzerland is also an option, we're a small company developing RF-ICs and -modules currently looking for a CEO/CTO. If you are interested in high-frequency electronics, firmware development and a bit of management drop me an email at s.bryner/axsem.com!
    - lordnacho 12y ago
      Hi, I live in Switzerland, have 10 years experience as a CTO, and I'm looking for something new. Where in CH are you? Mind if I email you?
      - 12y ago

ajarmst 12y ago

I think it's more "What's wrong with this country? Can't a man walk down the street without someone trying to get him to give up something of value for less than it's worth?" The issue's not with being offered a job, it's the "here's a smart person making money for themselves, let's see if we can get them to make money for us instead!" attitude.

hawkice 12y ago
This attitude isn't even really a problem (why hire anyone who can't run a surplus in their personal life, if you want them to run a surplus for your business?), the problem is, "let's try to trick this person down a garden path of making money for us" and "I get to decide who this person is, and if I say they're an engineer, that's their identity", both of which are absurd and essentially doomed to be wastes of time for everyone involved.

prawn 12y ago

See Paul Graham's recent article about how even talking to someone about an acquisition can be a huge distraction for someone running a small business.

EliteTruffle 12y ago

Shame on you for being unable to empathize with engineers. Recruiting tactics in this industry should be made illegal as a form of harassment, and people like you aren't helping make that happen.