6 ms·

Hamburg is burying the Autobahn and putting parks on top

86 points by dthal 12y ago

calebm 12y ago
Sounds like the "big dig" in Boston.
- justincormack 12y ago
  And the Hammersmith Flyunder project in London http://www.lbhf.gov.uk/Directory/News/hammersmith_flyunder.asp http://www.lbhf.gov.uk/Directory/News/hammersmith_flyunder.a...
- GauntletWizard 12y ago
  And Seattle's I 5 Colonnade, Freeway Park, and Aubrey Davis Park
  - Qworg 12y ago
    And the I 90 on Mercer Island.
  - kldavenport 12y ago
    The homeless have moved back into the I-5 Colonnade and the proximity of Duthie Hill leads most people away from the city for their rides.
- Kikawala 12y ago
  And Dallas' Klyde Warren Park http://www.klydewarrenpark.org/Park-Map/index.html http://www.klydewarrenpark.org/Park-Map/index.html
  - vonmoltke 12y ago
    The pictures look just like Klyde Warren. Dallas had it easier, though, because Woodall Rogers Freeway was already sunken.
- Jupe 12y ago
  And the Pedestrian Plazas in Oak Park, MI (since 1989) http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Interstate_696_pedestrian_plazas_Oak_Park.jpg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Interstate_696_pedest...
- andyl 12y ago
  And the Presidio Parklands in San Francisco http://newpresidioparklands.org/ http://newpresidioparklands.org/
- ojbyrne 12y ago
  And Barcelona did this before the Olympics there.
- thebigkick 12y ago
  And Reconnect Austin
- andrewliebchen 12y ago
  Can't believe the article didn't mention the Big Dig at all.
cbr 12y ago
Detailed link: http://streetswithoutcars.wordpress.com/2014/08/22/the-hamburger-deckel/ http://streetswithoutcars.wordpress.com/2014/08/22/the-hambu...
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
nostromo 12y ago
> The project is projected to cost $800 million What a steal. The Big Dig buried less road and cost 20-30 times more. I wonder why infrastructure costs are so out of control in the U.S. We should ask Germany or Japan to build California's high speed rail for us.
- theklub 12y ago
  Let's see what it costs them in the end. Big projects like this always go over budget.
  - lars_francke 12y ago
    Yes, one prominent example from Hamburg is the "Elphilharmonie": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbe_Philharmonic_Hall http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbe_Philharmonic_Hall
- mikeyouse 12y ago
  The Big Dig also had significantly more issues to deal with, including actually tunneling rather than just digging a hole and then capping it, corrosion resistance due to being below the water table a few hundred yards from the harbor, tunneling under active trains and through old unstable landfills, etc. US infrastructure costs are far too expensive, the Big Dig was a catastrophe of a project, but it's not really fair to compare this project to Boston's.
- DasIch 12y ago
  The projection is almost certainly done by someone completely incompetent or borders on being fraudulent. The real cost will almost certainly be at least 10 times higher.
- rtpg 12y ago
  I think Japan has started to learn from the US a lot, rail lines have become pretty expensive (recent example being the Tokyo Oedo subway line costing about $300 million per kilometer). At least things actually get built though. It's very depressing to see the length of infrastructure projects (decades even in Europe), but maybe it's always been like this...
mikeyouse 12y ago
I've started to wonder if some of the land shortage in San Francisco could be mitigated by either burying some roads or probably more realistically, just constructing buildings over the roads. I'd love to see a series of 1-unit deep apartments running down the middle of California or Gough. Hell, build a few skyscrapers over 80 in SOMA. It'll never happen, but one can dream.
- ufo 12y ago
  I think allowing for bigger buildings with more population density would free up more land than burying roads.
  - mc32 12y ago
    And importantly, it would be cheaper. There are always ideas about getting high density along Geary, Third, etc. combined with BRT (bus rapid transit) or light rail. It just never takes off --like razing JapanTown and renovating it.
- encoderer 12y ago
  I don't know, the embarcadero freeway is proof that these sorts of projects can happen. There is a growing class of young affluent tech workers in SF. We'll have to see how they organize and use their gathering political power over the next decades.
  - andrewliebchen 12y ago
    It took an earthquake to get the demolishment underway...
droopyEyelids 12y ago
I've always wondered if something like this was possible. chicago is a prime candidate; lake shore drive produces an insane amount of noise and ruins an incredible stretch of beach.
- andrewem 12y ago
  Better to eliminate the highway and replace it with a boulevard, with good protected sidewalks and bike lanes and transit facilities, maybe a bus lane or rail. That highway is neither inevitable nor immortal. See for instance http://gizmodo.com/6-freeway-demolitions-that-changed-their-cities-forever-1548314937 http://gizmodo.com/6-freeway-demolitions-that-changed-their-...
  - cbd1984 12y ago
    Here's one way to get from an eighth-story office to the nearest Post Office: Jump out the window, then walk to the nearest Post Office. If you were going to do that, you'd want a hell of a cushion to land on, right? My point is, destroying Lake Shore Drive is a huge freaking leap, and unless the people who live and work in Chicago have something to land on the moment they need it, the immediate dislocation will cost more than Chicagoans can pay. These kinds of massive multi-phase synchronized plans are something nobody is really good at yet, with NASA and the ESA probably coming closest. I don't really want to bet Chicago on one of them coming together just right.
tonyg 12y ago
Artist/architect Friedensreich Hundertwasser had some similar ideas about burying highways and using parkland to absorb some of their emissions, both chemical and auditory - his "invisible, inaudible Green Motorway": * http://www.pithandvigor.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/underground_tunnel_hundertwasser.jpg http://www.pithandvigor.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/under... (linked as part of this blog post: http://www.pithandvigor.com/diy-projects/materials/friedensreich-hundertwasser/ http://www.pithandvigor.com/diy-projects/materials/friedensr...) * http://www.hundertwasser.com/arch/view-25slashXIII http://www.hundertwasser.com/arch/view-25slashXIII * http://www.hundertwasser.com/arch/view-25slashXII http://www.hundertwasser.com/arch/view-25slashXII * http://www.hundertwasser.com/arch/view-25slashV http://www.hundertwasser.com/arch/view-25slashV
- frik 12y ago
  In Linz (Austria) there is a similar highway with a park above it (more than one kilometer long). Built in 2005, water leaks into the tunnel and there are high costs to fix it (including removing the park to fix the problems). http://derstandard.at/1310511908137/Undicht-seit-Eroeffnung-Sanierung-des-Linzer-A7-Tunnels-Park-soll-abgetragen-werden http://derstandard.at/1310511908137/Undicht-seit-Eroeffnung-... (German)
  - nakedrobot2 12y ago
    Water leaks into all tunnels. Some have this issue in a more problematic way that others, admittedly ;-)
DenisM 12y ago
Seattle area has another, much more similar highway concealment project that's already built - the I90 on the Mercer Island is partially underground, with the "roof" being used for things like parks. Unfortunately, not the whole length of it is buried, so there is still plenty of highway noise throughout the island. Mercer Island made me think all auto roads should be built like this, and surface should be entirely reserved for pedestrians, bikes and the like.
- dthal 12y ago
  I think lids do three things: they cut down on noise, they reclaim some open space, and they piece back together the neighborhoods that get cut in half by big freeway projects. The Mercer Island lids may not do much for noise, but they do the last two of those things nicely. I think that last item, putting broken neighborhoods back together again, is really important and it can be accomplished pretty well even by fragmentary lids.
  - mc32 12y ago
    There are ways to keep from cleaving neighborhoods with freeways or roads. Big cities in Japan have tons of rail lines and expressways winding through downtowns without really disconnecting neighborhoods. They use lots of overhead walkways and tunnels and also buildings stand right next to the expressways they become intricate with the fabric of the cities --not so much an afterthought-like an add on. So it may depend on a few things --for one people being okay with having a freeway outside the window and also being okay with walkways above ground level connecting buildings and destinations. Now usually the railways and roadways are elevated and not at grade
chrismcb 12y ago
I'm curious how Seattle was supposed to replace an elevated freeway that is falling aprt with a park? I guess they could replace the parking lot that is currently under the freeway.
jacquesm 12y ago
The pricing seems way off for such an ambitious project.
vproman 12y ago
A bit like Teralta Park over I-15 in City Heights, San Diego. CalTrans was supposed to have 3 - 4 covers over the freeway, with parks, shopping and housing over it, but only one cover was completed. http://sandiegofreepress.org/2013/08/i-15-in-city-heights-how-a-freeway-that-divided-the-community-became-an-urban-monument-to-citizen-activism/ http://sandiegofreepress.org/2013/08/i-15-in-city-heights-ho...
holri 12y ago
Vienna has this ("Platte") and build a new district and recreational erea besides the Danube on top of it.
einrealist 12y ago
Little OT: The list of blocked resources for this page is impressive (ScriptSafe, µBlock).
- jlarocco 12y ago
  Ha! I noticed the same thing.
legulere 12y ago
Similar is planned for Nürnberg with an 1.8km tunnel with green roof: http://www.nuernberg.de/internet/soer/frankenschnellwegplaene.html http://www.nuernberg.de/internet/soer/frankenschnellwegplaen... The plans are currently lying at court because of some opponents.
sspross 12y ago
Zürich, Switzerland is trying to do the same since 30 years. http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/zuerich/stadt/Schwamendingen-muss-weiter-auf-die-Einhausung-warten/story/17599823 http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/zuerich/stadt/Schwamendingen-mus...
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
guruz 12y ago
Berlin has something like this, on the Sat view you can see that there is a park on top: https://www.google.de/maps/dir/52.4606291,13.4151826/52.4630419,13.4465243/@52.4619811,13.4292444,1399m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m9!4m8!1m5!3m4!1m2!1d13.4462406!2d52.4630015!3s0x47a84f77449b9a3d:0x76492ebca2963b0d!1m0!3e0 https://www.google.de/maps/dir/52.4606291,13.4151826/52.4630...
melling 12y ago
They should bury the long stretch that leads into the Holland Tunnel in NYC. Then create one continuous residential area. http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/149186.jpg http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/149186.jpg
blisterpeanuts 12y ago
I hope this is a trend. Highways are ugly and smelly and noisy and dangerous. Parks are pretty, safe, and quiet. I wish that all urban highways could be underground, with parks and residences and bike/walking paths above ground.
igl 12y ago
Funny, this tunnel is in the 100-200 million euro range. Could have a positive social impact. Yet they make compromises and ruin it's value. Raising it 3,5m into the air to save some money? Can it really be called underground then? The elbphilharmonie is at 800 million now. It will mostly make money for private hands (public private partnership) and will leave hamburg in dept for decades. Welcome to a CDU town.

86 points by dthal 12y ago

calebm 12y ago

Sounds like the "big dig" in Boston.

justincormack 12y ago
And the Hammersmith Flyunder project in London http://www.lbhf.gov.uk/Directory/News/hammersmith_flyunder.asp http://www.lbhf.gov.uk/Directory/News/hammersmith_flyunder.a...
GauntletWizard 12y ago
And Seattle's I 5 Colonnade, Freeway Park, and Aubrey Davis Park
- Qworg 12y ago
  And the I 90 on Mercer Island.
- kldavenport 12y ago
  The homeless have moved back into the I-5 Colonnade and the proximity of Duthie Hill leads most people away from the city for their rides.
Kikawala 12y ago
And Dallas' Klyde Warren Park http://www.klydewarrenpark.org/Park-Map/index.html http://www.klydewarrenpark.org/Park-Map/index.html
- vonmoltke 12y ago
  The pictures look just like Klyde Warren. Dallas had it easier, though, because Woodall Rogers Freeway was already sunken.
Jupe 12y ago
And the Pedestrian Plazas in Oak Park, MI (since 1989) http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Interstate_696_pedestrian_plazas_Oak_Park.jpg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Interstate_696_pedest...
andyl 12y ago
And the Presidio Parklands in San Francisco http://newpresidioparklands.org/ http://newpresidioparklands.org/
ojbyrne 12y ago
And Barcelona did this before the Olympics there.
thebigkick 12y ago
And Reconnect Austin
andrewliebchen 12y ago
Can't believe the article didn't mention the Big Dig at all.

cbr 12y ago

Detailed link: http://streetswithoutcars.wordpress.com/2014/08/22/the-hamburger-deckel/ http://streetswithoutcars.wordpress.com/2014/08/22/the-hambu...

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

nostromo 12y ago

> The project is projected to cost $800 million What a steal. The Big Dig buried less road and cost 20-30 times more. I wonder why infrastructure costs are so out of control in the U.S. We should ask Germany or Japan to build California's high speed rail for us.

theklub 12y ago
Let's see what it costs them in the end. Big projects like this always go over budget.
- lars_francke 12y ago
  Yes, one prominent example from Hamburg is the "Elphilharmonie": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbe_Philharmonic_Hall http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbe_Philharmonic_Hall
mikeyouse 12y ago
The Big Dig also had significantly more issues to deal with, including actually tunneling rather than just digging a hole and then capping it, corrosion resistance due to being below the water table a few hundred yards from the harbor, tunneling under active trains and through old unstable landfills, etc. US infrastructure costs are far too expensive, the Big Dig was a catastrophe of a project, but it's not really fair to compare this project to Boston's.
DasIch 12y ago
The projection is almost certainly done by someone completely incompetent or borders on being fraudulent. The real cost will almost certainly be at least 10 times higher.
rtpg 12y ago
I think Japan has started to learn from the US a lot, rail lines have become pretty expensive (recent example being the Tokyo Oedo subway line costing about $300 million per kilometer). At least things actually get built though. It's very depressing to see the length of infrastructure projects (decades even in Europe), but maybe it's always been like this...

mikeyouse 12y ago

I've started to wonder if some of the land shortage in San Francisco could be mitigated by either burying some roads or probably more realistically, just constructing buildings over the roads. I'd love to see a series of 1-unit deep apartments running down the middle of California or Gough. Hell, build a few skyscrapers over 80 in SOMA. It'll never happen, but one can dream.

ufo 12y ago
I think allowing for bigger buildings with more population density would free up more land than burying roads.
- mc32 12y ago
  And importantly, it would be cheaper. There are always ideas about getting high density along Geary, Third, etc. combined with BRT (bus rapid transit) or light rail. It just never takes off --like razing JapanTown and renovating it.
encoderer 12y ago
I don't know, the embarcadero freeway is proof that these sorts of projects can happen. There is a growing class of young affluent tech workers in SF. We'll have to see how they organize and use their gathering political power over the next decades.
- andrewliebchen 12y ago
  It took an earthquake to get the demolishment underway...

droopyEyelids 12y ago

I've always wondered if something like this was possible. chicago is a prime candidate; lake shore drive produces an insane amount of noise and ruins an incredible stretch of beach.

andrewem 12y ago
Better to eliminate the highway and replace it with a boulevard, with good protected sidewalks and bike lanes and transit facilities, maybe a bus lane or rail. That highway is neither inevitable nor immortal. See for instance http://gizmodo.com/6-freeway-demolitions-that-changed-their-cities-forever-1548314937 http://gizmodo.com/6-freeway-demolitions-that-changed-their-...
- cbd1984 12y ago
  Here's one way to get from an eighth-story office to the nearest Post Office: Jump out the window, then walk to the nearest Post Office. If you were going to do that, you'd want a hell of a cushion to land on, right? My point is, destroying Lake Shore Drive is a huge freaking leap, and unless the people who live and work in Chicago have something to land on the moment they need it, the immediate dislocation will cost more than Chicagoans can pay. These kinds of massive multi-phase synchronized plans are something nobody is really good at yet, with NASA and the ESA probably coming closest. I don't really want to bet Chicago on one of them coming together just right.

tonyg 12y ago

Artist/architect Friedensreich Hundertwasser had some similar ideas about burying highways and using parkland to absorb some of their emissions, both chemical and auditory - his "invisible, inaudible Green Motorway": * http://www.pithandvigor.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/underground_tunnel_hundertwasser.jpg http://www.pithandvigor.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/under... (linked as part of this blog post: http://www.pithandvigor.com/diy-projects/materials/friedensreich-hundertwasser/ http://www.pithandvigor.com/diy-projects/materials/friedensr...) * http://www.hundertwasser.com/arch/view-25slashXIII http://www.hundertwasser.com/arch/view-25slashXIII * http://www.hundertwasser.com/arch/view-25slashXII http://www.hundertwasser.com/arch/view-25slashXII * http://www.hundertwasser.com/arch/view-25slashV http://www.hundertwasser.com/arch/view-25slashV

frik 12y ago
In Linz (Austria) there is a similar highway with a park above it (more than one kilometer long). Built in 2005, water leaks into the tunnel and there are high costs to fix it (including removing the park to fix the problems). http://derstandard.at/1310511908137/Undicht-seit-Eroeffnung-Sanierung-des-Linzer-A7-Tunnels-Park-soll-abgetragen-werden http://derstandard.at/1310511908137/Undicht-seit-Eroeffnung-... (German)
- nakedrobot2 12y ago
  Water leaks into all tunnels. Some have this issue in a more problematic way that others, admittedly ;-)

DenisM 12y ago

Seattle area has another, much more similar highway concealment project that's already built - the I90 on the Mercer Island is partially underground, with the "roof" being used for things like parks. Unfortunately, not the whole length of it is buried, so there is still plenty of highway noise throughout the island. Mercer Island made me think all auto roads should be built like this, and surface should be entirely reserved for pedestrians, bikes and the like.

dthal 12y ago
I think lids do three things: they cut down on noise, they reclaim some open space, and they piece back together the neighborhoods that get cut in half by big freeway projects. The Mercer Island lids may not do much for noise, but they do the last two of those things nicely. I think that last item, putting broken neighborhoods back together again, is really important and it can be accomplished pretty well even by fragmentary lids.
- mc32 12y ago
  There are ways to keep from cleaving neighborhoods with freeways or roads. Big cities in Japan have tons of rail lines and expressways winding through downtowns without really disconnecting neighborhoods. They use lots of overhead walkways and tunnels and also buildings stand right next to the expressways they become intricate with the fabric of the cities --not so much an afterthought-like an add on. So it may depend on a few things --for one people being okay with having a freeway outside the window and also being okay with walkways above ground level connecting buildings and destinations. Now usually the railways and roadways are elevated and not at grade

chrismcb 12y ago

I'm curious how Seattle was supposed to replace an elevated freeway that is falling aprt with a park? I guess they could replace the parking lot that is currently under the freeway.

jacquesm 12y ago

The pricing seems way off for such an ambitious project.

vproman 12y ago

A bit like Teralta Park over I-15 in City Heights, San Diego. CalTrans was supposed to have 3 - 4 covers over the freeway, with parks, shopping and housing over it, but only one cover was completed. http://sandiegofreepress.org/2013/08/i-15-in-city-heights-how-a-freeway-that-divided-the-community-became-an-urban-monument-to-citizen-activism/ http://sandiegofreepress.org/2013/08/i-15-in-city-heights-ho...

holri 12y ago

Vienna has this ("Platte") and build a new district and recreational erea besides the Danube on top of it.

einrealist 12y ago

Little OT: The list of blocked resources for this page is impressive (ScriptSafe, µBlock).

jlarocco 12y ago
Ha! I noticed the same thing.

legulere 12y ago

Similar is planned for Nürnberg with an 1.8km tunnel with green roof: http://www.nuernberg.de/internet/soer/frankenschnellwegplaene.html http://www.nuernberg.de/internet/soer/frankenschnellwegplaen... The plans are currently lying at court because of some opponents.

sspross 12y ago

Zürich, Switzerland is trying to do the same since 30 years. http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/zuerich/stadt/Schwamendingen-muss-weiter-auf-die-Einhausung-warten/story/17599823 http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/zuerich/stadt/Schwamendingen-mus...

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

guruz 12y ago

Berlin has something like this, on the Sat view you can see that there is a park on top: https://www.google.de/maps/dir/52.4606291,13.4151826/52.4630419,13.4465243/@52.4619811,13.4292444,1399m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m9!4m8!1m5!3m4!1m2!1d13.4462406!2d52.4630015!3s0x47a84f77449b9a3d:0x76492ebca2963b0d!1m0!3e0 https://www.google.de/maps/dir/52.4606291,13.4151826/52.4630...

melling 12y ago

They should bury the long stretch that leads into the Holland Tunnel in NYC. Then create one continuous residential area. http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/149186.jpg http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/149186.jpg

blisterpeanuts 12y ago

I hope this is a trend. Highways are ugly and smelly and noisy and dangerous. Parks are pretty, safe, and quiet. I wish that all urban highways could be underground, with parks and residences and bike/walking paths above ground.

igl 12y ago

Funny, this tunnel is in the 100-200 million euro range. Could have a positive social impact. Yet they make compromises and ruin it's value. Raising it 3,5m into the air to save some money? Can it really be called underground then? The elbphilharmonie is at 800 million now. It will mostly make money for private hands (public private partnership) and will leave hamburg in dept for decades. Welcome to a CDU town.