5 ms·

Scary title, but I think I'll mark this one up as a victory for auto safety. Especially considering a good chunk of death by firearms are (tragically) suicides.

by JTon 12y ago

collyw 12y ago
As a European it seems blatantly obvious that your gun laws are absurd in the States. (I am assuming you are from the States from the fact you see the argument that way around, correct me if I am wrong).
- savagej 12y ago
  yeah. you're a subject, not a free person in Europe.
- throwaway90999 12y ago
  Most of the perceived absurdity comes from disingenuous framing of the issues. Here are some examples: Over half of all quoted gun deaths are suicides. [edit: removed mention of suicide survivability as I don't have a reference handy. But remember: The most likely person to shoot you is yourself.] Let's remove suicide from the discussion and talk about violence. The primary driver for violence is socioeconomic. The US has a huge wealth and education disparity problem, exacerbated by a drug war which focuses primarily on the lower economic classes. Most political rhetoric surrounding gun violence focuses on denying lower-class individuals access to firearms and is inexorably linked to institutionalized racism [ cite: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturday_night_special#Economic_class_and_racial_inequality http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturday_night_special#Economic... ] What these stats don't show is the EXTREME socioeconomic skew involved in violent crime. If we look at gun deaths by wealth quadrile we find that the upper 40% have very, very few gun deaths -- on par with the nicer areas in Europe. Our inflated gun death statistics come almost entirely from the lower 40%. That is, gun deaths are emblematic of America's class divide. The right to self defense is a convenient target for politicians to score easy wins. Constructively addressing the USA's violence problem is a very different issue and frankly is almost entirely unrelated to firearm legislation.
  - vor_ 12y ago
    > Let's remove suicide from the discussion and talk about violence. Why? This is the second time I've seen that suggestion in these comments, and I don't understand why suicides should not be counted as gun deaths.
    - danielweber 12y ago
      Because no one is discussing "gun deaths" in a vacuum. "Gun death" weren't selected at random to compare to "car deaths" by some antiseptic algorithm. It's done, pretty obviously, to drive a narrative, i.e., "guns should be more regulated." When discussing that narrative, there is a big gap between "you shouldn't have a gun because you might hurt your neighbor" and "you shouldn't have a gun because your neighbor might use a gun to hurt himself."
      - vor_ 12y ago
        Easy access to an effective suicide method is one more impact of the pervasiveness of guns in a modern society. It's an important factor in determining gun deaths. In determining the deadliness of drugs to a society, should suicides be ruled out? Accidental overdoses? Drug-related shootings? Where do you draw the line in filtering the statistics so that they're more comfortable for a given political position?
        sosuke 12y ago
        Access to guns is very restrictive in Japan, extremely restrictive in fact, yet they have a higher suicide rate than the United States. http://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate http://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
        collyw 12y ago
        I'll bet they have less gun deaths though.
    - ta75757 12y ago
- steveeq1 12y ago
  Our personal injury laws are even crazier
luckyno13 12y ago
It is also worth noting that according to their graph that the critical point to be made is that both rates of death have been on a decline since their starting point of 1990. Cars are indeed getting safer, but apparently something is being done right in the firearm area as well.
- vor_ 12y ago
  Gun ownership has been in decline for decades (along with hunting). In response, the industry shifted from hunting and home defense toward civilianized combat weaponry like the AR-15. There's a large accessory and customization market for these things. It's essentially a toy for military hobbyists and gadget-lovers. More info: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/03/business/the-ar-15-the-most-wanted-gun-in-america.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/03/business/the-ar-15-the-mos...

Scary title, but I think I'll mark this one up as a victory for auto safety. Especially considering a good chunk of death by firearms are (tragically) suicides.

by JTon 12y ago

Scary title, but I think I'll mark this one up as a victory for auto safety. Especially considering a good chunk of death by firearms are (tragically) suicides.

collyw 12y ago

As a European it seems blatantly obvious that your gun laws are absurd in the States. (I am assuming you are from the States from the fact you see the argument that way around, correct me if I am wrong).

savagej 12y ago
yeah. you're a subject, not a free person in Europe.
throwaway90999 12y ago
Most of the perceived absurdity comes from disingenuous framing of the issues. Here are some examples: Over half of all quoted gun deaths are suicides. [edit: removed mention of suicide survivability as I don't have a reference handy. But remember: The most likely person to shoot you is yourself.] Let's remove suicide from the discussion and talk about violence. The primary driver for violence is socioeconomic. The US has a huge wealth and education disparity problem, exacerbated by a drug war which focuses primarily on the lower economic classes. Most political rhetoric surrounding gun violence focuses on denying lower-class individuals access to firearms and is inexorably linked to institutionalized racism [ cite: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturday_night_special#Economic_class_and_racial_inequality http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturday_night_special#Economic... ] What these stats don't show is the EXTREME socioeconomic skew involved in violent crime. If we look at gun deaths by wealth quadrile we find that the upper 40% have very, very few gun deaths -- on par with the nicer areas in Europe. Our inflated gun death statistics come almost entirely from the lower 40%. That is, gun deaths are emblematic of America's class divide. The right to self defense is a convenient target for politicians to score easy wins. Constructively addressing the USA's violence problem is a very different issue and frankly is almost entirely unrelated to firearm legislation.
- vor_ 12y ago
  > Let's remove suicide from the discussion and talk about violence. Why? This is the second time I've seen that suggestion in these comments, and I don't understand why suicides should not be counted as gun deaths.
  - danielweber 12y ago
    Because no one is discussing "gun deaths" in a vacuum. "Gun death" weren't selected at random to compare to "car deaths" by some antiseptic algorithm. It's done, pretty obviously, to drive a narrative, i.e., "guns should be more regulated." When discussing that narrative, there is a big gap between "you shouldn't have a gun because you might hurt your neighbor" and "you shouldn't have a gun because your neighbor might use a gun to hurt himself."
    - vor_ 12y ago
      Easy access to an effective suicide method is one more impact of the pervasiveness of guns in a modern society. It's an important factor in determining gun deaths. In determining the deadliness of drugs to a society, should suicides be ruled out? Accidental overdoses? Drug-related shootings? Where do you draw the line in filtering the statistics so that they're more comfortable for a given political position?
      - sosuke 12y ago
        Access to guns is very restrictive in Japan, extremely restrictive in fact, yet they have a higher suicide rate than the United States. http://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate http://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
        collyw 12y ago
        I'll bet they have less gun deaths though.
  - ta75757 12y ago
steveeq1 12y ago
Our personal injury laws are even crazier

luckyno13 12y ago

It is also worth noting that according to their graph that the critical point to be made is that both rates of death have been on a decline since their starting point of 1990. Cars are indeed getting safer, but apparently something is being done right in the firearm area as well.

vor_ 12y ago
Gun ownership has been in decline for decades (along with hunting). In response, the industry shifted from hunting and home defense toward civilianized combat weaponry like the AR-15. There's a large accessory and customization market for these things. It's essentially a toy for military hobbyists and gadget-lovers. More info: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/03/business/the-ar-15-the-most-wanted-gun-in-america.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/03/business/the-ar-15-the-mos...