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Just a note - meditation can have negative side effects: http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/06/the-dark-knight-of-the-souls/372766/ http://www.theat

Just a note - meditation can have negative side effects: http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/06/the-dark-knight-of-the-souls/372766/ http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/06/the-dark-k... This article, which has been submitted to HN before, investigates several severe reactions to meditation and the nonexistent research in, or even interest in researching, its downsides. Having a negative reaction to meditation is not surprising, if you think about it. Deep introspection can lead to crippling mental states, depending on what you do or do not find. You may expect to find meaning and find none, or you may find something haunting from your past or within your psyche. Either can be a disaster for your personal well-being. I find it somewhat vapid to discuss meditation as simply an efficiency lifehack. From the article: > For Britton, this widespread assumption—that meditation exists only for stress reduction and labor productivity, "because that's what Americans value"—narrows the scope of the scientific lens. When the time comes to develop hypotheses around the effects of meditation, the only acceptable—and fundable—research questions are the ones that promise to deliver the answers we want to hear. > ..."But," she cautions, "what about when meditation plays a role in creating an experience that then leads to a breakup, a psychotic break, or an inability to focus at work?"

NathanKP 12y ago
I would argue that if introspection has such harmful side effects for a person that means the person's mental state was already in an artificial and damaged state. I think in most cases it is better to begin that introspection process and endure some temporary pain in order to work through the root issue rather than trying to put it off by avoiding it. In other words, avoiding introspection won't solve the problem.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- vertex-four 12y ago
  On the other hand, you need to actually be in a place where you're capable of working through it in the first place, or you get stuck in a worse situation than you were before.
- Daishiman 12y ago
  Which is why it is recommended that, beyond a certain point of initial expertise, you seek a "master" in whatever branch of practice you're comfortable with. It's actually pretty thoroughly documented in all the Buddhist commentaries that people can have a very shitty time with meditation.
  - Florin_Andrei 12y ago
    Deep in essentially anyone's subconscious there's a lot of garbage. Sometimes meditation kicks it up a bit. If done properly, it's a clean-up.
JulianMorrison 12y ago
Haven't the Buddhists who invented it, always been aware that you can have bad trips? I recall reading a koan along the lines of: "Master, I see hell, demons torment me, I'm burning!" "It's a distraction. Carry on sitting." "Master, I see heaven, filled with love and bliss!" "It's a distraction. Carry on sitting." (heavily paraphrased from decades old memory)
- faitswulff 12y ago
  They do mention the Buddhist perspective in the article and quote from / link to a blog post by Shinzen Young: > Within the Buddhist tradition, [this] is sometimes referred to as 'falling into the Pit of the Void.' It entails an authentic and irreversible insight into Emptiness and No Self. Instead of being empowering and fulfilling … it turns into the opposite. In a sense, it's Enlightenment's Evil Twin. This is serious but still manageable through intensive … guidance under a competent teacher. In some cases, it takes months or even years to fully metabolize, but in my experience the results are almost always highly positive. He goes on to add: > If we don't describe the possibility of Dark Night, then we leave people without a context should it occur. On the other hand, if we do discuss it, people get scared and assume it's going to happen to them, even if we point out (as I just did), that it's relatively infrequent. So the take-home message is: > 1. Don't worry, it's probably not going to happen to you. > 2. Even if it does, that's not necessarily a problem. The post is worth reading in its entirety. It also mentions software that "simulates an intricate tailored meditation [for] you." http://shinzenyoung.blogspot.com/2011_11_01_archive.html http://shinzenyoung.blogspot.com/2011_11_01_archive.html
meowface 12y ago
Reading this brings to mind very similar stories about people trying marijuana and suddenly undergoing long psychotic episodes and/or becoming diagnosed with psychotic conditions like schizophrenia or bipolar. The vast majority of these cases always end up being result of a genetic predisposition to psychosis. That seems exceedingly likely to be the case with those who undergo psychotic episodes due to meditation. I think highly introspective and mind-alerting experiences and substances like meditation, cannabis, and psychedelics all have the unfortunate side effect of potentially causing latent mental illness to surface. But it only happens when there is a latent mental illness. Better advice might be to warn people about meditation if their family has a history of mental illness or if a doctor thinks they have an increased risk of mental illness. It should not pose any risks for an average person.
- faitswulff 12y ago
  If we knew what the risk factors were for meditation, then yes, warning people would be a good idea.
klrkdekira 12y ago
Insightful meditation isn't about indulging in the mind's delusions, it's about realizing and observing the mind's usual habits of creating thought if left idle. There's an old saying, "If you're doing meditation, you're not doing meditation"

NathanKP 12y ago

I would argue that if introspection has such harmful side effects for a person that means the person's mental state was already in an artificial and damaged state. I think in most cases it is better to begin that introspection process and endure some temporary pain in order to work through the root issue rather than trying to put it off by avoiding it. In other words, avoiding introspection won't solve the problem.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
vertex-four 12y ago
On the other hand, you need to actually be in a place where you're capable of working through it in the first place, or you get stuck in a worse situation than you were before.
Daishiman 12y ago
Which is why it is recommended that, beyond a certain point of initial expertise, you seek a "master" in whatever branch of practice you're comfortable with. It's actually pretty thoroughly documented in all the Buddhist commentaries that people can have a very shitty time with meditation.
- Florin_Andrei 12y ago
  Deep in essentially anyone's subconscious there's a lot of garbage. Sometimes meditation kicks it up a bit. If done properly, it's a clean-up.

JulianMorrison 12y ago

Haven't the Buddhists who invented it, always been aware that you can have bad trips? I recall reading a koan along the lines of: "Master, I see hell, demons torment me, I'm burning!" "It's a distraction. Carry on sitting." "Master, I see heaven, filled with love and bliss!" "It's a distraction. Carry on sitting." (heavily paraphrased from decades old memory)

faitswulff 12y ago
They do mention the Buddhist perspective in the article and quote from / link to a blog post by Shinzen Young: > Within the Buddhist tradition, [this] is sometimes referred to as 'falling into the Pit of the Void.' It entails an authentic and irreversible insight into Emptiness and No Self. Instead of being empowering and fulfilling … it turns into the opposite. In a sense, it's Enlightenment's Evil Twin. This is serious but still manageable through intensive … guidance under a competent teacher. In some cases, it takes months or even years to fully metabolize, but in my experience the results are almost always highly positive. He goes on to add: > If we don't describe the possibility of Dark Night, then we leave people without a context should it occur. On the other hand, if we do discuss it, people get scared and assume it's going to happen to them, even if we point out (as I just did), that it's relatively infrequent. So the take-home message is: > 1. Don't worry, it's probably not going to happen to you. > 2. Even if it does, that's not necessarily a problem. The post is worth reading in its entirety. It also mentions software that "simulates an intricate tailored meditation [for] you." http://shinzenyoung.blogspot.com/2011_11_01_archive.html http://shinzenyoung.blogspot.com/2011_11_01_archive.html

meowface 12y ago

Reading this brings to mind very similar stories about people trying marijuana and suddenly undergoing long psychotic episodes and/or becoming diagnosed with psychotic conditions like schizophrenia or bipolar. The vast majority of these cases always end up being result of a genetic predisposition to psychosis. That seems exceedingly likely to be the case with those who undergo psychotic episodes due to meditation. I think highly introspective and mind-alerting experiences and substances like meditation, cannabis, and psychedelics all have the unfortunate side effect of potentially causing latent mental illness to surface. But it only happens when there is a latent mental illness. Better advice might be to warn people about meditation if their family has a history of mental illness or if a doctor thinks they have an increased risk of mental illness. It should not pose any risks for an average person.

faitswulff 12y ago
If we knew what the risk factors were for meditation, then yes, warning people would be a good idea.

klrkdekira 12y ago

Insightful meditation isn't about indulging in the mind's delusions, it's about realizing and observing the mind's usual habits of creating thought if left idle. There's an old saying, "If you're doing meditation, you're not doing meditation"