14 ms·

Programming Clojure, Smalltalk Style

122 points by swannodette 12y ago

pjmlp 12y ago
Actually it is more Xerox PARC style, not only Smalltalk[0]. From the post I am not sure if the author has checked Interlisp-D. Or the Lisp Machines and commercial Lisps like Lisp Works and Franz Lisp. Sometimes I wish younger generations would care to look more into what was happening at Xerox PARC and ETHZ, and less at what was happening at AT&T. Great post. [0] Interlisp-D, Mesa/Cedar provided similar experiences.
- swannodette 12y ago
  Smalltalk was invented at ... Xerox PARC. The author works at CDG Labs where Dan Ingalls of Smalltalk fame is employed. I'm fairly certain the author is aware of the history around PARC Smalltalk environments and the PARC Lisp graphical environments that followed.
  - pjmlp 12y ago
    I guess I didn't express myself correctly. I was trying to convey the message that while the author is correct to talk about Smalltalk, the experience was traversal to whole operating systems being researched there. Every time I dig into Xerox PARC documents, I discover new things, specially how we are still catching up with those environments.
    - adamnemecek 12y ago
      What Xerox PARC documents are you referring to? I've been looking for something along those lines.
      - Sophistifunk 12y ago
        Scour the archives of the VPRI mailing list, it's where I get most of my scans of old Smalltalk stuff (unsurprisingly). Any web search that's even remotely Smalltalk-related quickly ends in circular links and/or 404s.
      - pjmlp 12y ago
        These books contain all the relevant Smalltalk 80 ones, http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr/FreeBooks.html http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr/FreeBooks.html On bitsavers search for Mesa, Cedar, Interlisp-D and Smalltalk. http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/xerox/ http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/xerox/ Also http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/interlisp http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/interlisp ACM also has quite a few papers if you have access to it. Additionally you get some tips by reading Niklaus Wirth books about Modula-2 and Oberon, as he refers how Mesa and Cedar influenced his languages.
        adamnemecek 12y ago
        Thanks, I'll check them out.
        swannodette 12y ago
        Wow these are great links thanks!
    - ics 12y ago
      > Every time I dig into Xerox PARC documents, I discover new things, specially how we are still catching up with those environments. In fairness however us young people are still catching up on others' catching up on said environments. :)
      - pjmlp 12y ago
        When I talk to younger developers, I get surprised how little they know about how the 80's and 90's computing landscape looked like. We still had to learn about what was happening since the early 60's. I wonder what gets teached on the universities nowadays. It is amazing how fast so much knowledge goes lost.
        xixixao 12y ago
        Java. I'm serious.
coding4all 12y ago
Clojure for the win yet again.
- klibertp 12y ago
  There's nothing - or very little - language specific here. The idea - as TFA admits - is old and already implemented a few times. Aside from (many) implementations in "esoteric" (Smalltalk, Self, Lisp...) languages, we even have things like LivelyKernel, which is implemented in JavaScript... and almost nobody heard about it.
  - coding4all 12y ago
    Did you read the last two paragraphs? 1. >"It is based on Clojure because Clojure comes with a set of attractive properties." 2. >"Clojure also combines an exciting mindset around simplicity with enough pragmatism to make it a successful system for real-world projects." 3. >"Additionally, Clojure's strong view on how state is handled, the distinction between identities and values and focus on immutability make it easier to deal with the complexities that come with "live programming"." That sounds pretty language specific to me.
    - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
      1 and 2 are platitudes devoid of content. 3 is a bold claim but doesn't pan out in practice: live programming is creating to changes in code and state, making changes go away only eliminates the problem by eliminating the experience (see [1]). [1] http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/people/smcdirm/managedtime.aspx http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/people/smcdirm/managedti...
      - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
        creating -> reacting.
      - terranstyler 12y ago
        I think he means that _using clojure_ (to implement the IDE) is very language specific as opposed to saying "it is based on clojure" or "clojure is cool because X" (which everyone can).
pron 12y ago
If he adds code bubbles (which he mentions) that would be really cool.
kyllo 12y ago
Cool, reminds me of Dr. Racket mixed with Smalltalk, but for Clojure.
reilly3000 12y ago
As somebody who is trying to learn Clojure I am really interested in this project. Contextual access to docs and syntax would definitely help speed along the process! I am also really intrigued about the concept of contextual chat and collaborative coding. One of you hackers is going to finally build the Twitch of coding one day, and it shall be glorious. Perhaps cloxp will be the one to take us there?
mercurial 12y ago
> As a result the system supports a workflow that is more like a conversation, a back and forth between programmer and system. Interesting to contrast this with my OCaml experience, which is more a REPL-punctuaded series of monologues: writing a longish piece of code in Vim, and then sacrificing goats to appease the compiler, before moving on to finding out the logic bugs.

122 points by swannodette 12y ago

pjmlp 12y ago

Actually it is more Xerox PARC style, not only Smalltalk[0]. From the post I am not sure if the author has checked Interlisp-D. Or the Lisp Machines and commercial Lisps like Lisp Works and Franz Lisp. Sometimes I wish younger generations would care to look more into what was happening at Xerox PARC and ETHZ, and less at what was happening at AT&T. Great post. [0] Interlisp-D, Mesa/Cedar provided similar experiences.

swannodette 12y ago
Smalltalk was invented at ... Xerox PARC. The author works at CDG Labs where Dan Ingalls of Smalltalk fame is employed. I'm fairly certain the author is aware of the history around PARC Smalltalk environments and the PARC Lisp graphical environments that followed.
- pjmlp 12y ago
  I guess I didn't express myself correctly. I was trying to convey the message that while the author is correct to talk about Smalltalk, the experience was traversal to whole operating systems being researched there. Every time I dig into Xerox PARC documents, I discover new things, specially how we are still catching up with those environments.
  - adamnemecek 12y ago
    What Xerox PARC documents are you referring to? I've been looking for something along those lines.
    - Sophistifunk 12y ago
      Scour the archives of the VPRI mailing list, it's where I get most of my scans of old Smalltalk stuff (unsurprisingly). Any web search that's even remotely Smalltalk-related quickly ends in circular links and/or 404s.
    - pjmlp 12y ago
      These books contain all the relevant Smalltalk 80 ones, http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr/FreeBooks.html http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr/FreeBooks.html On bitsavers search for Mesa, Cedar, Interlisp-D and Smalltalk. http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/xerox/ http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/xerox/ Also http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/interlisp http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/interlisp ACM also has quite a few papers if you have access to it. Additionally you get some tips by reading Niklaus Wirth books about Modula-2 and Oberon, as he refers how Mesa and Cedar influenced his languages.
      - adamnemecek 12y ago
        Thanks, I'll check them out.
      - swannodette 12y ago
        Wow these are great links thanks!
  - ics 12y ago
    > Every time I dig into Xerox PARC documents, I discover new things, specially how we are still catching up with those environments. In fairness however us young people are still catching up on others' catching up on said environments. :)
    - pjmlp 12y ago
      When I talk to younger developers, I get surprised how little they know about how the 80's and 90's computing landscape looked like. We still had to learn about what was happening since the early 60's. I wonder what gets teached on the universities nowadays. It is amazing how fast so much knowledge goes lost.
      - xixixao 12y ago
        Java. I'm serious.

coding4all 12y ago

Clojure for the win yet again.

klibertp 12y ago
There's nothing - or very little - language specific here. The idea - as TFA admits - is old and already implemented a few times. Aside from (many) implementations in "esoteric" (Smalltalk, Self, Lisp...) languages, we even have things like LivelyKernel, which is implemented in JavaScript... and almost nobody heard about it.
- coding4all 12y ago
  Did you read the last two paragraphs? 1. >"It is based on Clojure because Clojure comes with a set of attractive properties." 2. >"Clojure also combines an exciting mindset around simplicity with enough pragmatism to make it a successful system for real-world projects." 3. >"Additionally, Clojure's strong view on how state is handled, the distinction between identities and values and focus on immutability make it easier to deal with the complexities that come with "live programming"." That sounds pretty language specific to me.
  - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
    1 and 2 are platitudes devoid of content. 3 is a bold claim but doesn't pan out in practice: live programming is creating to changes in code and state, making changes go away only eliminates the problem by eliminating the experience (see [1]). [1] http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/people/smcdirm/managedtime.aspx http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/people/smcdirm/managedti...
    - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
      creating -> reacting.
    - terranstyler 12y ago
      I think he means that _using clojure_ (to implement the IDE) is very language specific as opposed to saying "it is based on clojure" or "clojure is cool because X" (which everyone can).

pron 12y ago

If he adds code bubbles (which he mentions) that would be really cool.

kyllo 12y ago

Cool, reminds me of Dr. Racket mixed with Smalltalk, but for Clojure.

reilly3000 12y ago

As somebody who is trying to learn Clojure I am really interested in this project. Contextual access to docs and syntax would definitely help speed along the process! I am also really intrigued about the concept of contextual chat and collaborative coding. One of you hackers is going to finally build the Twitch of coding one day, and it shall be glorious. Perhaps cloxp will be the one to take us there?

mercurial 12y ago

> As a result the system supports a workflow that is more like a conversation, a back and forth between programmer and system. Interesting to contrast this with my OCaml experience, which is more a REPL-punctuaded series of monologues: writing a longish piece of code in Vim, and then sacrificing goats to appease the compiler, before moving on to finding out the logic bugs.