6 ms·

> I don't know what most Muslims think about Charlie Hebdo Maybe ask most Muslims, not some self-appointed leaders?

by gohrt 12y ago

mercer 12y ago
At least here in Holland, many muslims form communities, often centered around cultural and religious centers. These communities tend to have leaders and/or spokespeople. These people can speak on behalf of the community. They are not (necessarily) self-appointed. In my experience, here, the moderate muslims are often rather quiet, perhaps out of fear. In general, they do not support extremism and fear non-muslim extremist retaliation. They are in a really bad spot, and I sympathize with their situation.
- Jayd2014 12y ago
  A Muslim here. > the moderate muslims are often rather quiet. Yes we are. But there are a few reasons for that: 1- First, Muslims can't be put in one group, there is 1.6 billion muslims worldwide with hundreds of different views and levels of tolerance. 2- Most of them don't have time or are too busy with their daily life. Think about the % of people who go vote every four years in a democracy. 30% maybe 50% at max vote, the rest can't be bothered because they are busy with their daily problems. Add to that that most Muslims live in a third world country, so they have enough problems already. 3- The first people affected by terrorism in term of body counts and extremism in general are Muslims themselves. Did you know for example that ISIS consider the previous president of egypt (Mursi) who is from the muslim brotherhood to be an infidel who need to be killed. 4- People in Muslim countries are getting numb to all this news reports because they are used to it. I remember when I was a kid watching Arab TV news showing people dying in Palestine and at one time the TV commentator laughed. She then said she was sorry and she didn't mean to laugh at what was happening. Most Arabs/Muslim who care about what's going on the Middle East have already watched too much death to react to it. 5- Some people do want to go to the street and demonstrate against this blood shed but they are not allowed by their local governments. They fear that this could turn in a revolt. Arab spring says hi. 6- There have been hundreds if not thousands of condemnation an protests by muslims all over the world but the media don't cover them much because they don't fit the narrative of evil muslims. Me as a Muslim I'm ashamed of what is happening and wish this Scumbugs are captured and put to justice. I see to much politic invested in terrorism that I know it's about power not about religion. I also do believe we muslims failed big time to adapt to the 21st century and need to wake up and get our acts together. I'm really sorry for the families of the victims and I hope they capture the scums who did this. There was an interesting discussion on reddit about this: http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/2rmmx8/eli5_if_most_muslims_disagree_with_the_actions_of/ http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/2rmmx8/el...
  - waps 12y ago
    The problem is that the terrorists are right about islam. So what do you think about your prophet doing the same ? Are you also ashamed of that ? He had the mother of 5 children murdered for opposing him. As you (should) know, this is far from the only instance of such action by "the prophet". I am sorry but unless you wholeheartedly condemn this kind of killing, whoever did it, your gesture means little. If you don't condemn your prophet, when is killing for insults allowed and when is it not becomes a valid question. To put it bluntly : if you don't condemn this, you're at least somewhat of a terrorist supporter. If you do, how can you be a muslim (given what the daily prayer says, mohamed could not have done anything wrong, plus you'd be lying when you say that prayer). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27Asma%27_bint_Marwan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27Asma%27_bint_Marwan Allow me to put up the full actions of the prophet : Upon hearing the poem, Muhammad then called for her death in turn, saying "Who will rid me of Marwan's daughter?" Umayr bin Adiy al-Khatmi, a blind man belonging to the same tribe as Asma’s husband (i.e., Banu Khatma) responded that he would. He crept into her room in the dark of night where she was sleeping with her five children, her infant child close to her bosom. Umayr removed the child from Asma's breast and killed her. This is far from the only time that muhammad did this sort of thing, and this is part of the "canon" of islam. It is also law in over 50 countries. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27Asma%27_bint_Marwan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27Asma%27_bint_Marwan (but if you doubt the quote, just type it into Google)
    - Jayd2014 12y ago
      Well since you are asking about typing it in google. I actually did. Here is what comes as an answer from the muslim side[1]: A member on my blog, brother "zulfiqarchucknorris", sent me the following information: Peace Dear Osama Abdullah I would like to inform you that on the many articles about the "poet killings" (specifically asma bint marwan) you fail to to include why the asma bint marwan chain for ibn saad is weak, although the ibn ishaq version is fully explained. I'll give you the explanasion: (copied from wikipedia, scroll toward the middle of the page) Al-Albani declared Ibn Sa'd's chain of transmission to be weak as well, as it includes Al-Waqidi:[2] Ibn Sa'd → Al-Waqidi → 'Abd Allah ibn al-Harith ibn al-Fudayl → Al-Harith ibn al-Fudayl Al-Waqidi has been condemned as an untrustworthy narrator and has been frequently and severely criticized by scholars, thus his narrations have been abandoned by the majority of hadith scholars.[3] Yahya ibn Ma'een said: "Al-Waqidi narrated 20,000 false hadith about the prophet". Al-Shafi'i, Ahmad ibn Hanbal and Al-Albani[2] said: "Al-Waqidi is a liar" while Al-Bukhari said he didn't include a single letter by Al-Waqidi in his hadith works. In addition, this isnad is discontinued (muʻḍal) as Al-Harith ibn al-Fudayl never met any of Muhammad's companions.[3] 2 is al waqidi 3 is ibn hisham [1]http://www.answering-christianity.com/karim/forgeries_about_killing.htm http://www.answering-christianity.com/karim/forgeries_about_... Copy pasting doesn't help anyone. I'd rather have it that you go to someone who is an expert on this field, do your research and ask him/her what's bugging you.
- IkmoIkmo 12y ago
  > In my experience, here, the moderate muslims are often rather quiet, perhaps out of fear. In general, they do not support extremism and fear non-muslim extremist retaliation. They are in a really bad spot, and I sympathize with their situation. They're no more quiet than when say a white Christian lunatic (Breivik) shot 77 people to death and injured over 300. The vast majority of them will denounce both acts, but otherwise they're pretty quiet. Which goes for most people, really, none of my non-muslim friends have gone to any demonstrations lately or spoke out publicly. Sure there are people who do it, but that goes for muslims, too. It's not always very well reported, but if you go and look you'll find a shit ton of muslim leaders denounce such attacks, for example today the French Muslim Council called it an "attack on democracy", barbaric, an attack on freedom of the press etc. And you don't really see anyone speak out against those Muslim organisations like CFCM which is said to represent between 3.5 and 5 million muslims in France. And these aren't just formal organisations, they often have deep ties to the community, particularly with direct links to formal networks of all mosques in the country. I always wonder what it'd really look like. I'm not religious but family is. They look at attacks like these with disgust. But he's not a well known individual, he has no place on TV to 'publicly speak out'. What would that even look like? Public persons tend to speak out against attacks like these without exception. Today the Muslim Mayor of Rotterdam did, and a Muslim member of the Labor party has planned demonstrations with a large Moroccan youth movement coinciding with demonstrations planned in France.
  - pbhjpbhj 12y ago
    From Wikipedia on Anders Behring Breivik: >The manifesto states its author is "100 percent Christian",[4] but he is not "excessively religious"[4] and considers himself a "cultural Christian" and a "modern-day crusader".[3][4] His manifesto states "I'm not going to pretend I'm a very religious person, as that would be a lie", calls religion a crutch and a source for drawing mental strength, and says "I've always been very pragmatic and influenced by my secular surroundings and environment." Regarding the term cultural Christian, which he says means preserving European culture, he notes, "It is enough that you are a Christian-agnostic or a Christian-atheist (an atheist who wants to preserve at least the basics of the European Christian cultural legacy...)"[3][182] Furthermore, Breivik stated that "myself and many more like me do not necessarily have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and God."[3][192] Nevertheless, he stated that he planned to pray to God seeking for his help during his attacks.[193] // I described myself as a "cultural christian" as a teenager, I was agnostic and acted atheistically (ie not a Christian). He surely means he wants to maintain 'Western' culture rather than allow Islamisation. That's not "Christian", if he were a Christian terrorist the aim of the terror would be to convert people to Christianity or punish them for not being/opposing Christians. He was, according to this, not bothered by any non-Christians as long as they didn't seek to change Western culture. If Breivik had cried "for Jesus" or said he was "killing those who offended God by opposing Christianity" then the Pope, Archbishops, and other leaders of formalised Christian congregations would have been giving statements against it at the drop of a hat.

> I don't know what most Muslims think about Charlie Hebdo Maybe ask most Muslims, not some self-appointed leaders?

by gohrt 12y ago

> I don't know what most Muslims think about Charlie Hebdo Maybe ask most Muslims, not some self-appointed leaders?

At least here in Holland, many muslims form communities, often centered around cultural and religious centers. These communities tend to have leaders and/or spokespeople. These people can speak on behalf of the community. They are not (necessarily) self-appointed. In my experience, here, the moderate muslims are often rather quiet, perhaps out of fear. In general, they do not support extremism and fear non-muslim extremist retaliation. They are in a really bad spot, and I sympathize with their situation.

Jayd2014 12y ago
A Muslim here. > the moderate muslims are often rather quiet. Yes we are. But there are a few reasons for that: 1- First, Muslims can't be put in one group, there is 1.6 billion muslims worldwide with hundreds of different views and levels of tolerance. 2- Most of them don't have time or are too busy with their daily life. Think about the % of people who go vote every four years in a democracy. 30% maybe 50% at max vote, the rest can't be bothered because they are busy with their daily problems. Add to that that most Muslims live in a third world country, so they have enough problems already. 3- The first people affected by terrorism in term of body counts and extremism in general are Muslims themselves. Did you know for example that ISIS consider the previous president of egypt (Mursi) who is from the muslim brotherhood to be an infidel who need to be killed. 4- People in Muslim countries are getting numb to all this news reports because they are used to it. I remember when I was a kid watching Arab TV news showing people dying in Palestine and at one time the TV commentator laughed. She then said she was sorry and she didn't mean to laugh at what was happening. Most Arabs/Muslim who care about what's going on the Middle East have already watched too much death to react to it. 5- Some people do want to go to the street and demonstrate against this blood shed but they are not allowed by their local governments. They fear that this could turn in a revolt. Arab spring says hi. 6- There have been hundreds if not thousands of condemnation an protests by muslims all over the world but the media don't cover them much because they don't fit the narrative of evil muslims. Me as a Muslim I'm ashamed of what is happening and wish this Scumbugs are captured and put to justice. I see to much politic invested in terrorism that I know it's about power not about religion. I also do believe we muslims failed big time to adapt to the 21st century and need to wake up and get our acts together. I'm really sorry for the families of the victims and I hope they capture the scums who did this. There was an interesting discussion on reddit about this: http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/2rmmx8/eli5_if_most_muslims_disagree_with_the_actions_of/ http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/2rmmx8/el...
- waps 12y ago
  The problem is that the terrorists are right about islam. So what do you think about your prophet doing the same ? Are you also ashamed of that ? He had the mother of 5 children murdered for opposing him. As you (should) know, this is far from the only instance of such action by "the prophet". I am sorry but unless you wholeheartedly condemn this kind of killing, whoever did it, your gesture means little. If you don't condemn your prophet, when is killing for insults allowed and when is it not becomes a valid question. To put it bluntly : if you don't condemn this, you're at least somewhat of a terrorist supporter. If you do, how can you be a muslim (given what the daily prayer says, mohamed could not have done anything wrong, plus you'd be lying when you say that prayer). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27Asma%27_bint_Marwan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27Asma%27_bint_Marwan Allow me to put up the full actions of the prophet : Upon hearing the poem, Muhammad then called for her death in turn, saying "Who will rid me of Marwan's daughter?" Umayr bin Adiy al-Khatmi, a blind man belonging to the same tribe as Asma’s husband (i.e., Banu Khatma) responded that he would. He crept into her room in the dark of night where she was sleeping with her five children, her infant child close to her bosom. Umayr removed the child from Asma's breast and killed her. This is far from the only time that muhammad did this sort of thing, and this is part of the "canon" of islam. It is also law in over 50 countries. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27Asma%27_bint_Marwan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27Asma%27_bint_Marwan (but if you doubt the quote, just type it into Google)
  - Jayd2014 12y ago
    Well since you are asking about typing it in google. I actually did. Here is what comes as an answer from the muslim side[1]: A member on my blog, brother "zulfiqarchucknorris", sent me the following information: Peace Dear Osama Abdullah I would like to inform you that on the many articles about the "poet killings" (specifically asma bint marwan) you fail to to include why the asma bint marwan chain for ibn saad is weak, although the ibn ishaq version is fully explained. I'll give you the explanasion: (copied from wikipedia, scroll toward the middle of the page) Al-Albani declared Ibn Sa'd's chain of transmission to be weak as well, as it includes Al-Waqidi:[2] Ibn Sa'd → Al-Waqidi → 'Abd Allah ibn al-Harith ibn al-Fudayl → Al-Harith ibn al-Fudayl Al-Waqidi has been condemned as an untrustworthy narrator and has been frequently and severely criticized by scholars, thus his narrations have been abandoned by the majority of hadith scholars.[3] Yahya ibn Ma'een said: "Al-Waqidi narrated 20,000 false hadith about the prophet". Al-Shafi'i, Ahmad ibn Hanbal and Al-Albani[2] said: "Al-Waqidi is a liar" while Al-Bukhari said he didn't include a single letter by Al-Waqidi in his hadith works. In addition, this isnad is discontinued (muʻḍal) as Al-Harith ibn al-Fudayl never met any of Muhammad's companions.[3] 2 is al waqidi 3 is ibn hisham [1]http://www.answering-christianity.com/karim/forgeries_about_killing.htm http://www.answering-christianity.com/karim/forgeries_about_... Copy pasting doesn't help anyone. I'd rather have it that you go to someone who is an expert on this field, do your research and ask him/her what's bugging you.
IkmoIkmo 12y ago
> In my experience, here, the moderate muslims are often rather quiet, perhaps out of fear. In general, they do not support extremism and fear non-muslim extremist retaliation. They are in a really bad spot, and I sympathize with their situation. They're no more quiet than when say a white Christian lunatic (Breivik) shot 77 people to death and injured over 300. The vast majority of them will denounce both acts, but otherwise they're pretty quiet. Which goes for most people, really, none of my non-muslim friends have gone to any demonstrations lately or spoke out publicly. Sure there are people who do it, but that goes for muslims, too. It's not always very well reported, but if you go and look you'll find a shit ton of muslim leaders denounce such attacks, for example today the French Muslim Council called it an "attack on democracy", barbaric, an attack on freedom of the press etc. And you don't really see anyone speak out against those Muslim organisations like CFCM which is said to represent between 3.5 and 5 million muslims in France. And these aren't just formal organisations, they often have deep ties to the community, particularly with direct links to formal networks of all mosques in the country. I always wonder what it'd really look like. I'm not religious but family is. They look at attacks like these with disgust. But he's not a well known individual, he has no place on TV to 'publicly speak out'. What would that even look like? Public persons tend to speak out against attacks like these without exception. Today the Muslim Mayor of Rotterdam did, and a Muslim member of the Labor party has planned demonstrations with a large Moroccan youth movement coinciding with demonstrations planned in France.
- pbhjpbhj 12y ago
  From Wikipedia on Anders Behring Breivik: >The manifesto states its author is "100 percent Christian",[4] but he is not "excessively religious"[4] and considers himself a "cultural Christian" and a "modern-day crusader".[3][4] His manifesto states "I'm not going to pretend I'm a very religious person, as that would be a lie", calls religion a crutch and a source for drawing mental strength, and says "I've always been very pragmatic and influenced by my secular surroundings and environment." Regarding the term cultural Christian, which he says means preserving European culture, he notes, "It is enough that you are a Christian-agnostic or a Christian-atheist (an atheist who wants to preserve at least the basics of the European Christian cultural legacy...)"[3][182] Furthermore, Breivik stated that "myself and many more like me do not necessarily have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and God."[3][192] Nevertheless, he stated that he planned to pray to God seeking for his help during his attacks.[193] // I described myself as a "cultural christian" as a teenager, I was agnostic and acted atheistically (ie not a Christian). He surely means he wants to maintain 'Western' culture rather than allow Islamisation. That's not "Christian", if he were a Christian terrorist the aim of the terror would be to convert people to Christianity or punish them for not being/opposing Christians. He was, according to this, not bothered by any non-Christians as long as they didn't seek to change Western culture. If Breivik had cried "for Jesus" or said he was "killing those who offended God by opposing Christianity" then the Pope, Archbishops, and other leaders of formalised Christian congregations would have been giving statements against it at the drop of a hat.