5 ms·

I heard Templeton was one of the most egregious of the bunch, but didn't realize Pappy was similar. These days, it seems worth it to spend my money at a local

by bmj 12y ago

I heard Templeton was one of the most egregious of the bunch, but didn't realize Pappy was similar. These days, it seems worth it to spend my money at a local distillery (Wigle Whiskey), where they go from grains to finished product in the same facility.

tptacek 12y ago
Pappy and Templeton are both NDPs, but Pappy is a "good" NDP, and Templeton is a poster child for evil NDPs. Among other details: Templeton resells MGPI rye, to which they add flavorant, while Pappy is a special label and aging of KBD bourbon. That said: don't pay good money for Pappy. It's hugely overrated. A $25 bottle of Willett will give you a substantially similar spirit (also KBD), and one I like better than Pappy. Unfortunately: the local, small operations tend to produce inferior products. Whiskey is a very difficult business to get good at. Among other things, it seems to be the case that you need to use gigantic barrels to produce top-quality whiskey, which favors companies that have a direct pipeline to large numbers of consumers. Chuck Cowdery has a pretty good list of cheap bourbons you can't go wrong with, including Very Old Barton, Old Forester, Jim Beam Black Label, and Old Grand-Dad. I've been working my way through his cheap bourbon list and it's been pretty great.
- kasey_junk 12y ago
  Unless something has changed dramatically recently Pappy is not KBD juice. It is a wheated buffalo trace. That said, I agree that it is hugely overrated, but old whiskey is all overrated right now. If you are looking for a similar spirit I'd recommend the Weller bottles. As for the cheap bourbons, be careful, several have changed recipes recently or more troubling done away with their traditional age statements in shady ways (I'm looking at you Very Old Barton). Due to the demand for whiskey right now, anything with any age at all is being snapped up for NDP sale. Leaving the bottom shelf in worse shape than it used to be.
  - tptacek 12y ago
    D'oh: I got my Willett and my Weller crossed, and my Pappy/Buffalo Trace and Black Maple/KBD crossed as well.
  - dpeck 12y ago
    Not quite on the Pappy being BT, the younger stuff in the line is, and I believe current thoughts are the 15 is blending BT with some of the "ultra aged" Stitzel Weller stock that Julian Van Winkle started the brand with and the older stock is all SW. For inexpensive stuff look for Bottled in Bond (legally at least 4 years old, 100 proof, single distilling season). Still some real gems there, mostly from the good folks at Heaven Hill.
    - kasey_junk 12y ago
      Yeah didn't want to complicate the discussion with the Pappy conjecture, but more and more people are coming around to the idea that the SW stuff is gone. I know that the WL Weller 19 year that BT bottled years ago was my favorite of all time and the price for that has become obscene.
      - dpeck 12y ago
        Right. I've only really been into whiskey the last 3-4 years, so really just before the boom. Prices have gotten nuts and the availability is worse for all the age stated stuff, and especially the wheaters. 12 year and old antique Weller used to be reasonably priced high quality go-tos, now they're treated like gold and hoarded by shopkeeps and buyers as "basically pappy." Looking forward to the general public moving on to whatevers next in the alcohol world. Fingers crossed it'll be tequila as that will never interfere with my tastes :)
        kasey_junk 12y ago
        Try a few good tequilas or mezcals. I frequently use them to "hedge" the inflated prices of whiskey. The good ones are as different from the high volume stuff as good scotch is (and maybe more so).
        dpeck 12y ago
        perhaps I'll do that, I find I'm pretty picky with my spirits, if offered I'll sip but in general I don't really care for scotch (peaty or not, the "sharpness" of barley turns me off), and really not a fan of the flavor of tequila at all.
kasey_junk 12y ago
If you like the whiskey at your local producer thats great. Most of the local producers have to take short cuts over traditional aging processes because they cost so much. Whether those short cuts matter is a source of big debate.

by bmj 12y ago

tptacek 12y ago

Pappy and Templeton are both NDPs, but Pappy is a "good" NDP, and Templeton is a poster child for evil NDPs. Among other details: Templeton resells MGPI rye, to which they add flavorant, while Pappy is a special label and aging of KBD bourbon. That said: don't pay good money for Pappy. It's hugely overrated. A $25 bottle of Willett will give you a substantially similar spirit (also KBD), and one I like better than Pappy. Unfortunately: the local, small operations tend to produce inferior products. Whiskey is a very difficult business to get good at. Among other things, it seems to be the case that you need to use gigantic barrels to produce top-quality whiskey, which favors companies that have a direct pipeline to large numbers of consumers. Chuck Cowdery has a pretty good list of cheap bourbons you can't go wrong with, including Very Old Barton, Old Forester, Jim Beam Black Label, and Old Grand-Dad. I've been working my way through his cheap bourbon list and it's been pretty great.

kasey_junk 12y ago
Unless something has changed dramatically recently Pappy is not KBD juice. It is a wheated buffalo trace. That said, I agree that it is hugely overrated, but old whiskey is all overrated right now. If you are looking for a similar spirit I'd recommend the Weller bottles. As for the cheap bourbons, be careful, several have changed recipes recently or more troubling done away with their traditional age statements in shady ways (I'm looking at you Very Old Barton). Due to the demand for whiskey right now, anything with any age at all is being snapped up for NDP sale. Leaving the bottom shelf in worse shape than it used to be.
- tptacek 12y ago
  D'oh: I got my Willett and my Weller crossed, and my Pappy/Buffalo Trace and Black Maple/KBD crossed as well.
- dpeck 12y ago
  Not quite on the Pappy being BT, the younger stuff in the line is, and I believe current thoughts are the 15 is blending BT with some of the "ultra aged" Stitzel Weller stock that Julian Van Winkle started the brand with and the older stock is all SW. For inexpensive stuff look for Bottled in Bond (legally at least 4 years old, 100 proof, single distilling season). Still some real gems there, mostly from the good folks at Heaven Hill.
  - kasey_junk 12y ago
    Yeah didn't want to complicate the discussion with the Pappy conjecture, but more and more people are coming around to the idea that the SW stuff is gone. I know that the WL Weller 19 year that BT bottled years ago was my favorite of all time and the price for that has become obscene.
    - dpeck 12y ago
      Right. I've only really been into whiskey the last 3-4 years, so really just before the boom. Prices have gotten nuts and the availability is worse for all the age stated stuff, and especially the wheaters. 12 year and old antique Weller used to be reasonably priced high quality go-tos, now they're treated like gold and hoarded by shopkeeps and buyers as "basically pappy." Looking forward to the general public moving on to whatevers next in the alcohol world. Fingers crossed it'll be tequila as that will never interfere with my tastes :)
      - kasey_junk 12y ago
        Try a few good tequilas or mezcals. I frequently use them to "hedge" the inflated prices of whiskey. The good ones are as different from the high volume stuff as good scotch is (and maybe more so).
        dpeck 12y ago
        perhaps I'll do that, I find I'm pretty picky with my spirits, if offered I'll sip but in general I don't really care for scotch (peaty or not, the "sharpness" of barley turns me off), and really not a fan of the flavor of tequila at all.

kasey_junk 12y ago

If you like the whiskey at your local producer thats great. Most of the local producers have to take short cuts over traditional aging processes because they cost so much. Whether those short cuts matter is a source of big debate.