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I recently came across a blog post[0] that examined where U.S. whisk(e)ys were actually produced. Turns out many of the top-shelf brands aren't actually produc

by bmj 12y ago

I recently came across a blog post[0] that examined where U.S. whisk(e)ys were actually produced. Turns out many of the top-shelf brands aren't actually produced in the manner which they are marketed. My impression, at least among bourbons, is that there are several brands that, while owned by mega-corps, still control their production in a mom-and-pop manner. [0] http://recenteats.blogspot.com/p/the-complete-list-of-american-whiskey.html http://recenteats.blogspot.com/p/the-complete-list-of-americ...

tptacek 12y ago
The best known top-shelf brands that fit that description are Pappy, WhistlePig, and Black Maple Hill. They're good products, but they're all bottlings of someone else's spirit. The term for that kind of brand is "NDP". NDP practices are most notorious in American rye, where the majority of products come from a single ex-Seagrams distillery in Indiana called MGPI. Templeton is an NDP infamous for carefully concealing the fact that they're reselling commodity rye spirit. Chuck Cowdery, whose blog is well worth a read, calls them a "Potempkin Distillery". But there are a lot of top-shelf brands that don't fit that description at all. The Buffalo Trace antiques --- Thomas Handy, for instance --- are genuine serious products. Of course, they trace back to Sazerac, which is a pretty big company; just look at all the stuff Barton Brands (also owned by Sazerac) sells.
- bmj 12y ago
  I heard Templeton was one of the most egregious of the bunch, but didn't realize Pappy was similar. These days, it seems worth it to spend my money at a local distillery (Wigle Whiskey), where they go from grains to finished product in the same facility.
  - tptacek 12y ago
    Pappy and Templeton are both NDPs, but Pappy is a "good" NDP, and Templeton is a poster child for evil NDPs. Among other details: Templeton resells MGPI rye, to which they add flavorant, while Pappy is a special label and aging of KBD bourbon. That said: don't pay good money for Pappy. It's hugely overrated. A $25 bottle of Willett will give you a substantially similar spirit (also KBD), and one I like better than Pappy. Unfortunately: the local, small operations tend to produce inferior products. Whiskey is a very difficult business to get good at. Among other things, it seems to be the case that you need to use gigantic barrels to produce top-quality whiskey, which favors companies that have a direct pipeline to large numbers of consumers. Chuck Cowdery has a pretty good list of cheap bourbons you can't go wrong with, including Very Old Barton, Old Forester, Jim Beam Black Label, and Old Grand-Dad. I've been working my way through his cheap bourbon list and it's been pretty great.
    - kasey_junk 12y ago
      Unless something has changed dramatically recently Pappy is not KBD juice. It is a wheated buffalo trace. That said, I agree that it is hugely overrated, but old whiskey is all overrated right now. If you are looking for a similar spirit I'd recommend the Weller bottles. As for the cheap bourbons, be careful, several have changed recipes recently or more troubling done away with their traditional age statements in shady ways (I'm looking at you Very Old Barton). Due to the demand for whiskey right now, anything with any age at all is being snapped up for NDP sale. Leaving the bottom shelf in worse shape than it used to be.
      - tptacek 12y ago
        D'oh: I got my Willett and my Weller crossed, and my Pappy/Buffalo Trace and Black Maple/KBD crossed as well.
      - dpeck 12y ago
        Not quite on the Pappy being BT, the younger stuff in the line is, and I believe current thoughts are the 15 is blending BT with some of the "ultra aged" Stitzel Weller stock that Julian Van Winkle started the brand with and the older stock is all SW. For inexpensive stuff look for Bottled in Bond (legally at least 4 years old, 100 proof, single distilling season). Still some real gems there, mostly from the good folks at Heaven Hill.
        kasey_junk 12y ago
        Yeah didn't want to complicate the discussion with the Pappy conjecture, but more and more people are coming around to the idea that the SW stuff is gone. I know that the WL Weller 19 year that BT bottled years ago was my favorite of all time and the price for that has become obscene.
        dpeck 12y ago
        Right. I've only really been into whiskey the last 3-4 years, so really just before the boom. Prices have gotten nuts and the availability is worse for all the age stated stuff, and especially the wheaters. 12 year and old antique Weller used to be reasonably priced high quality go-tos, now they're treated like gold and hoarded by shopkeeps and buyers as "basically pappy." Looking forward to the general public moving on to whatevers next in the alcohol world. Fingers crossed it'll be tequila as that will never interfere with my tastes :)
  - kasey_junk 12y ago
    If you like the whiskey at your local producer thats great. Most of the local producers have to take short cuts over traditional aging processes because they cost so much. Whether those short cuts matter is a source of big debate.
- BashiBazouk 12y ago
  My understanding is they buy the unaged rye then "flavor" it by aging it in what ever wood casks they decide. So, if you lined up all the various MGPI derived brands, they would all taste different. Similar to Vodka. At the "magic of vodka" moment they are all the same. Add pure ethyl alcohol (which at this point whether it's potato or grain based is meaningless) to water and get slightly less vodka. Then add a unique flavor to make your brand. I like Bulleit rye, personally. Sure it's MGPI derived but it tastes decent and at $20+ a bottle it's a good day to day rye...
  - 3am 12y ago
    Potato, wheat, rye, and other vodka bases are definitely distinguishable. It's not 100% ethanol post distillation. Vodka just takes a lot less of the heads and tails.

by bmj 12y ago

tptacek 12y ago

The best known top-shelf brands that fit that description are Pappy, WhistlePig, and Black Maple Hill. They're good products, but they're all bottlings of someone else's spirit. The term for that kind of brand is "NDP". NDP practices are most notorious in American rye, where the majority of products come from a single ex-Seagrams distillery in Indiana called MGPI. Templeton is an NDP infamous for carefully concealing the fact that they're reselling commodity rye spirit. Chuck Cowdery, whose blog is well worth a read, calls them a "Potempkin Distillery". But there are a lot of top-shelf brands that don't fit that description at all. The Buffalo Trace antiques --- Thomas Handy, for instance --- are genuine serious products. Of course, they trace back to Sazerac, which is a pretty big company; just look at all the stuff Barton Brands (also owned by Sazerac) sells.

bmj 12y ago
I heard Templeton was one of the most egregious of the bunch, but didn't realize Pappy was similar. These days, it seems worth it to spend my money at a local distillery (Wigle Whiskey), where they go from grains to finished product in the same facility.
- tptacek 12y ago
  Pappy and Templeton are both NDPs, but Pappy is a "good" NDP, and Templeton is a poster child for evil NDPs. Among other details: Templeton resells MGPI rye, to which they add flavorant, while Pappy is a special label and aging of KBD bourbon. That said: don't pay good money for Pappy. It's hugely overrated. A $25 bottle of Willett will give you a substantially similar spirit (also KBD), and one I like better than Pappy. Unfortunately: the local, small operations tend to produce inferior products. Whiskey is a very difficult business to get good at. Among other things, it seems to be the case that you need to use gigantic barrels to produce top-quality whiskey, which favors companies that have a direct pipeline to large numbers of consumers. Chuck Cowdery has a pretty good list of cheap bourbons you can't go wrong with, including Very Old Barton, Old Forester, Jim Beam Black Label, and Old Grand-Dad. I've been working my way through his cheap bourbon list and it's been pretty great.
  - kasey_junk 12y ago
    Unless something has changed dramatically recently Pappy is not KBD juice. It is a wheated buffalo trace. That said, I agree that it is hugely overrated, but old whiskey is all overrated right now. If you are looking for a similar spirit I'd recommend the Weller bottles. As for the cheap bourbons, be careful, several have changed recipes recently or more troubling done away with their traditional age statements in shady ways (I'm looking at you Very Old Barton). Due to the demand for whiskey right now, anything with any age at all is being snapped up for NDP sale. Leaving the bottom shelf in worse shape than it used to be.
    - tptacek 12y ago
      D'oh: I got my Willett and my Weller crossed, and my Pappy/Buffalo Trace and Black Maple/KBD crossed as well.
    - dpeck 12y ago
      Not quite on the Pappy being BT, the younger stuff in the line is, and I believe current thoughts are the 15 is blending BT with some of the "ultra aged" Stitzel Weller stock that Julian Van Winkle started the brand with and the older stock is all SW. For inexpensive stuff look for Bottled in Bond (legally at least 4 years old, 100 proof, single distilling season). Still some real gems there, mostly from the good folks at Heaven Hill.
      - kasey_junk 12y ago
        Yeah didn't want to complicate the discussion with the Pappy conjecture, but more and more people are coming around to the idea that the SW stuff is gone. I know that the WL Weller 19 year that BT bottled years ago was my favorite of all time and the price for that has become obscene.
        dpeck 12y ago
        Right. I've only really been into whiskey the last 3-4 years, so really just before the boom. Prices have gotten nuts and the availability is worse for all the age stated stuff, and especially the wheaters. 12 year and old antique Weller used to be reasonably priced high quality go-tos, now they're treated like gold and hoarded by shopkeeps and buyers as "basically pappy." Looking forward to the general public moving on to whatevers next in the alcohol world. Fingers crossed it'll be tequila as that will never interfere with my tastes :)
- kasey_junk 12y ago
  If you like the whiskey at your local producer thats great. Most of the local producers have to take short cuts over traditional aging processes because they cost so much. Whether those short cuts matter is a source of big debate.
BashiBazouk 12y ago
My understanding is they buy the unaged rye then "flavor" it by aging it in what ever wood casks they decide. So, if you lined up all the various MGPI derived brands, they would all taste different. Similar to Vodka. At the "magic of vodka" moment they are all the same. Add pure ethyl alcohol (which at this point whether it's potato or grain based is meaningless) to water and get slightly less vodka. Then add a unique flavor to make your brand. I like Bulleit rye, personally. Sure it's MGPI derived but it tastes decent and at $20+ a bottle it's a good day to day rye...
- 3am 12y ago
  Potato, wheat, rye, and other vodka bases are definitely distinguishable. It's not 100% ethanol post distillation. Vodka just takes a lot less of the heads and tails.