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I think interest in other Spirits particularly Rum may begin to suck in those who would previously have stuck with Scotch.

by dageshi 12y ago

jschwartzi 12y ago
Why do you say that? There are some significant differences between many single-malt scotches and a rum.
- 3am 12y ago
  Well, as someone that drinks both, there's also a lot in common. Obviously the peating & the resulting tie to the terroir is a little less important, but there are Solera process rums that are top tier spirits for 10-20% of the cost corresponding quality single malt scotches. Obviously a scotch drinker is going to want to stick to scotch, but there are very fine examples of other distilled beverages (rum, cognac/armanac, bourbon, anejo tequila/mescal) that are going to be as complicated on the palate for fractions of the price. At some point people will switch. The reason I haven't, honestly, is that there are still "bargains" in middle market scotch... it's not clear that intrinsic quality is driving market, as opposed to scarcity or marketing. EDIT: sorry, got back to this thread a bit late. I echo the other commenter on the Ron Zacapa 23 or Centennario. That was specifically what I had in mind, and is a great launching point for exploring them. https://www.masterofmalt.com/samples/ https://www.masterofmalt.com/samples/ will let you get 30ml samples for a modest markup and is a great way to try a lot w/o ruining your finances or liver. Astonishingly high end single malts available that way, too (I have no incentive to promote them whatsoever)
  - jschwartzi 12y ago
    I'll have to hunt down a Solera-process rum then. Can you recommend a particular brand? As for cognac, bourbon and tequila, I can definitely see your point there.
    - dagw 12y ago
      Ron Zacapa Solera 23 is probably the most common and certainly the one I see 'in the wild' the most often. It's a mega-corp rum (Diageo) and bit looked down upon by many rum snobs, but it's pretty good and a decent enough place to start in my opinion, and you shouldn't have much trouble finding a pub with a bottle behind the bar if you just want a taste rather than buying a whole bottle.
      - kasey_junk 12y ago
        I quite like the Ron Zacapa but someone coming from the whiskey world should know that the 23 refers to the oldest rum in the blend and not the youngest like you find in most whiskey. They are quite upfront about this on their labelling, but it did take away some of the "how did this price descrepency happen?" for me.
        dageshi 12y ago
        Very true, just to muddy the waters further however bear in mind that maturation generally happens at a faster pace in hotter climates which rum producing countries generally are.
      - defen 12y ago
        This might just be the booze snob in me talking, but I think Ron Zacapa 23 was significantly better up to about 5 years or so ago. It's still good, but I think increased demand/production has resulted in an inferior product compared to what it used to be.
    - dageshi 12y ago
      Try Dictador 12. Shouldn't be too expensive and is widely considered to be excellent.
    - ipince 12y ago
      Try the Santa Teresa 1796. Highly recommended and still my favorite after many years. I'm biased though, since it's Venezuelan (and I am too).
- dageshi 12y ago
  Both have long histories of production (both industries have distillers which are centuries old). Both mature their product in Oak casks. Both are very popular drinks in their blended/cheaper form so there's a wide variety of people out there who do drink rum just not the better quality aged rum. 20 years ago most people drank blended Scotch, the boom in single malt has been a relatively recent thing, I see no reason why Rum shouldn't follow a similar path.
zedpm 12y ago
I've seen more interest in other whisk(e)y variants, in my experience. Rye and bourbon in particular have a lot to offer these days in terms of high quality, interesting bottles. Templeton Rye[0] in particular is a great sipping whiskey I turn to when I'm not in the mood for scotch. But you're right that there is a whole, wide world of high quality drinks to explore. High-end rum, tequila, even gin have a lot to offer in terms of slow, thoughtful consumption. [0] http://www.templetonrye.com/home/ http://www.templetonrye.com/home/
- tptacek 12y ago
  Templeton is evil. Try Few, if you're looking for a similarly-priced Rye that isn't an MGPI product, or if you're looking for the same juice as Templeton at a more reasonable price, try High West or Bulleit. You should avoid Templeton just because of the douchebag factor.
  - swasheck 12y ago
    By "same juice" are you referring to the same (MGPI) stock? It's a bit unclear on the first read of your comment, but I've found High West to be a nice Rye so I'd certainly agree with the suggestion.
    - jonnathanson 12y ago
      Yes, High West and Bulleit are MGPI. My understanding is that by "same juice," he meant "also from MGPI," but at a lower markup.
      - swasheck 12y ago
        Thanks. Reading through the user's posts, they seem to know the topic but I just wanted to make sure I was understanding correctly.
  - zedpm 12y ago
    Interesting and disappointing news regarding Templeton. I'm going through some of the reading on the subject now. Thanks for the suggestions for alternatives.
jonnathanson 12y ago
Rum enthusiast here. While the rum market has been experiencing a small boom in recent years, especially at the high end, very few consumers think of rum as a fine, sipping drink. Low- to midrange mixing rums still account for the bulk of the market, and, barring a few trendy aberrations here and there, they probably will for years to come. Most people think of rum as a commodity, a mixing component. Scotch, on the other hand, has a long history as a standalone drink, and as an aspirational luxury good. What you're seeing in the Scotch boom isn't the sudden uplift of a formerly humble drink; it's the discovery and rediscovery of a noble drink by new markets. When and where rum has seen boutique, high-end mini-markets, they are usually driven by the marketing efforts of a firm or two, and they are usually impermanent. Even these usually promote rum as a mixing component -- which is a good way to remind people to consider rum as a vital component of the liquor cabinet, but not a great way to get them to appreciate it.
- dageshi 12y ago
  As far as I remember blended Scotch still makes up the majority of the Scotch market. So in principle I don't see them as being that different. What I do see is that you can buy good aged rum from good distillers at cheaper than the equivalent Scotch. Now it's all a matter of taste but when it comes down to it, would you rather have a cheaper good quality rum or an average/poor scotch for the same price? Scotch distillers are increasingly putting out non age statement bottlings of younger Scotch for prices that they once charged for 10 or 12 year matured Scotch, I think if they continue to do that those who've developed a taste for good spirit will look elsewhere and find Rum which is a very handy replacement.
  - jonnathanson 12y ago
    Blended Scotch is far and away the majority of the market, but I'd imagine most people still drink their blended Scotch unmixed. On the rocks, maybe. But not mixed. (I could be wrong about that, and don't want to speak from any presumed authority here.)
- riffraff 12y ago
  I think premium rums are becoming more common, but part of the reason why they are considered cheap mixing components is the selfimposed: X years old scotch means "the youngest component is X", while X years old rum generally means "the oldest component is X".

I think interest in other Spirits particularly Rum may begin to suck in those who would previously have stuck with Scotch.

by dageshi 12y ago

I think interest in other Spirits particularly Rum may begin to suck in those who would previously have stuck with Scotch.

jschwartzi 12y ago

Why do you say that? There are some significant differences between many single-malt scotches and a rum.

3am 12y ago
Well, as someone that drinks both, there's also a lot in common. Obviously the peating & the resulting tie to the terroir is a little less important, but there are Solera process rums that are top tier spirits for 10-20% of the cost corresponding quality single malt scotches. Obviously a scotch drinker is going to want to stick to scotch, but there are very fine examples of other distilled beverages (rum, cognac/armanac, bourbon, anejo tequila/mescal) that are going to be as complicated on the palate for fractions of the price. At some point people will switch. The reason I haven't, honestly, is that there are still "bargains" in middle market scotch... it's not clear that intrinsic quality is driving market, as opposed to scarcity or marketing. EDIT: sorry, got back to this thread a bit late. I echo the other commenter on the Ron Zacapa 23 or Centennario. That was specifically what I had in mind, and is a great launching point for exploring them. https://www.masterofmalt.com/samples/ https://www.masterofmalt.com/samples/ will let you get 30ml samples for a modest markup and is a great way to try a lot w/o ruining your finances or liver. Astonishingly high end single malts available that way, too (I have no incentive to promote them whatsoever)
- jschwartzi 12y ago
  I'll have to hunt down a Solera-process rum then. Can you recommend a particular brand? As for cognac, bourbon and tequila, I can definitely see your point there.
  - dagw 12y ago
    Ron Zacapa Solera 23 is probably the most common and certainly the one I see 'in the wild' the most often. It's a mega-corp rum (Diageo) and bit looked down upon by many rum snobs, but it's pretty good and a decent enough place to start in my opinion, and you shouldn't have much trouble finding a pub with a bottle behind the bar if you just want a taste rather than buying a whole bottle.
    - kasey_junk 12y ago
      I quite like the Ron Zacapa but someone coming from the whiskey world should know that the 23 refers to the oldest rum in the blend and not the youngest like you find in most whiskey. They are quite upfront about this on their labelling, but it did take away some of the "how did this price descrepency happen?" for me.
      - dageshi 12y ago
        Very true, just to muddy the waters further however bear in mind that maturation generally happens at a faster pace in hotter climates which rum producing countries generally are.
    - defen 12y ago
      This might just be the booze snob in me talking, but I think Ron Zacapa 23 was significantly better up to about 5 years or so ago. It's still good, but I think increased demand/production has resulted in an inferior product compared to what it used to be.
  - dageshi 12y ago
    Try Dictador 12. Shouldn't be too expensive and is widely considered to be excellent.
  - ipince 12y ago
    Try the Santa Teresa 1796. Highly recommended and still my favorite after many years. I'm biased though, since it's Venezuelan (and I am too).
dageshi 12y ago
Both have long histories of production (both industries have distillers which are centuries old). Both mature their product in Oak casks. Both are very popular drinks in their blended/cheaper form so there's a wide variety of people out there who do drink rum just not the better quality aged rum. 20 years ago most people drank blended Scotch, the boom in single malt has been a relatively recent thing, I see no reason why Rum shouldn't follow a similar path.

zedpm 12y ago

I've seen more interest in other whisk(e)y variants, in my experience. Rye and bourbon in particular have a lot to offer these days in terms of high quality, interesting bottles. Templeton Rye[0] in particular is a great sipping whiskey I turn to when I'm not in the mood for scotch. But you're right that there is a whole, wide world of high quality drinks to explore. High-end rum, tequila, even gin have a lot to offer in terms of slow, thoughtful consumption. [0] http://www.templetonrye.com/home/ http://www.templetonrye.com/home/

tptacek 12y ago
Templeton is evil. Try Few, if you're looking for a similarly-priced Rye that isn't an MGPI product, or if you're looking for the same juice as Templeton at a more reasonable price, try High West or Bulleit. You should avoid Templeton just because of the douchebag factor.
- swasheck 12y ago
  By "same juice" are you referring to the same (MGPI) stock? It's a bit unclear on the first read of your comment, but I've found High West to be a nice Rye so I'd certainly agree with the suggestion.
  - jonnathanson 12y ago
    Yes, High West and Bulleit are MGPI. My understanding is that by "same juice," he meant "also from MGPI," but at a lower markup.
    - swasheck 12y ago
      Thanks. Reading through the user's posts, they seem to know the topic but I just wanted to make sure I was understanding correctly.
- zedpm 12y ago
  Interesting and disappointing news regarding Templeton. I'm going through some of the reading on the subject now. Thanks for the suggestions for alternatives.

jonnathanson 12y ago

Rum enthusiast here. While the rum market has been experiencing a small boom in recent years, especially at the high end, very few consumers think of rum as a fine, sipping drink. Low- to midrange mixing rums still account for the bulk of the market, and, barring a few trendy aberrations here and there, they probably will for years to come. Most people think of rum as a commodity, a mixing component. Scotch, on the other hand, has a long history as a standalone drink, and as an aspirational luxury good. What you're seeing in the Scotch boom isn't the sudden uplift of a formerly humble drink; it's the discovery and rediscovery of a noble drink by new markets. When and where rum has seen boutique, high-end mini-markets, they are usually driven by the marketing efforts of a firm or two, and they are usually impermanent. Even these usually promote rum as a mixing component -- which is a good way to remind people to consider rum as a vital component of the liquor cabinet, but not a great way to get them to appreciate it.

dageshi 12y ago
As far as I remember blended Scotch still makes up the majority of the Scotch market. So in principle I don't see them as being that different. What I do see is that you can buy good aged rum from good distillers at cheaper than the equivalent Scotch. Now it's all a matter of taste but when it comes down to it, would you rather have a cheaper good quality rum or an average/poor scotch for the same price? Scotch distillers are increasingly putting out non age statement bottlings of younger Scotch for prices that they once charged for 10 or 12 year matured Scotch, I think if they continue to do that those who've developed a taste for good spirit will look elsewhere and find Rum which is a very handy replacement.
- jonnathanson 12y ago
  Blended Scotch is far and away the majority of the market, but I'd imagine most people still drink their blended Scotch unmixed. On the rocks, maybe. But not mixed. (I could be wrong about that, and don't want to speak from any presumed authority here.)
riffraff 12y ago
I think premium rums are becoming more common, but part of the reason why they are considered cheap mixing components is the selfimposed: X years old scotch means "the youngest component is X", while X years old rum generally means "the oldest component is X".