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'deserves to be in prison' does not imply 'deserves terrible living conditions' Yes it does. "deserves" very much alludes to revenge, not rehabilitation. "As

by MrJagil 12y ago

'deserves to be in prison' does not imply 'deserves terrible living conditions' Yes it does. "deserves" very much alludes to revenge, not rehabilitation. "As far as whether punishment 'makes sense', that depends on what moral system you use. I wouldn't treat it as so obvious." Everything depends on everything; could you elaborate? Just to further the discussion a bit. Being a deterrent has nothing to do with morals, which I see as the main argument for punishment so I'm curious where you're getting at.

Dylan16807 12y ago
>Yes it does. "deserves" very much alludes to revenge, not rehabilitation. Possibly revenge. You might want nobody to ever face that person again, etc. Even if it's revenge that doesn't mean you want them to suffer in any particular way. Take away their freedom and turn them into an inert ignorable abstract in a box somewhere. You could stick them in an average motel room and the result would be the same. >could you elaborate? Just as an example, Christianity is pretty big on the concept of retribution. While it does say that it's God's job rather than man's, that doesn't change that it declares bad people deserve punishment independent of the deterrence factor.
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  > Just as an example, Christianity is pretty big on the concept of retribution. That's...debatable, and varies considerably between different approaches to Christianity, even within individual denominations/sects. > While it does say that it's God's job rather than man's, that doesn't change that it declares bad people deserve punishment independent of the deterrence factor. This is only true of Christianity in general if you define "bad people" extremely broadly; Christianity in general holds that essentially infinite punishment is deserved by (or, in some formulations, the natural consequence of) sin, of which all humans [0] are guilty. Christianity is -- in pretty much all formulations -- very much about God eliminating this deserved punishment or bearing (through Christ) in the place of sinners this natural cost. So, one could argue at least as convincingly (if not more) that the central theme of Christianity is refraining from retribution even where it is "deserved" as one could argue that "Christianity is pretty big on the concept of retribution". [0] with either 1 or 2 (exactly, not as a figurative form for "a small number") exceptions, ever
  - Dylan16807 12y ago
    I am intentionally being very broad, yes. I'm only trying to support my claim that 'deserving' punishment depends on your moral system. Maybe I should focus on Judaism? I'm really not trying to get into any specific systems. >refraining from retribution That's very true, but the important thing here is that it's deserved in the first place.
    - dragonwriter 12y ago
      > That's very true, but the important thing here is that it's deserved in the first place. I don't think that's the important thing here; I think that whether it is appropriate for any person to exact it is at least as important in discussing whether punishment (which is an action) "makes sense". Even if a cost is viewed as earned within a moral system, if that moral system equally holds that it is immoral for any person to impose that cost on the one that deserves it, retributive punishment does not make sense in that moral system.
      - Dylan16807 12y ago
        Once it's accepted that some people think retributive punishment is moral, it's a small and obvious step to realize that some people think it's right to have humans dealing out that punishment. Especially people influenced by earlier-mentioned moral systems that don't believe in an afterlife.
      - Dylan16807 12y ago
        Once it's accepted that some people think retributive punishment is moral, it's a small and obvious step to realize that some people think it's right to have humans dealing out that punishment. Especially people influenced by earlier-mentioned moral systems that don't believe in an afterlife.
      - Dylan16807 12y ago
        Once it's accepted that some people think retributive punishment is moral, imo it's a small and obvious step to realize that some people think it's right to have humans dealing out that punishment. Especially people influenced by earlier-mentioned moral systems that don't believe in an afterlife.
- MrJagil 12y ago
  > You could stick them in an average motel room and the result would be the same. I guess this thread of discussion is getting moot and semantic, but I do find it curious that someone would say "that person deserves to be in a motel room", without that motel room indicating some kind of punishment (revenge). "deserves" indicates that he should suffer somehow, i maintain. > Just as an example, Christianity is pretty big on the concept of retribution. While it does say that it's God's job rather than man's, that doesn't change that it declares bad people deserve punishment independent of the deterrence factor. Excellent point! You are speaking in strictly logical terms though, which is why i referenced dialectics earlier. It is very hard to discuss this subject meaningfully if you're ignoring all the intricacies of real life. I.e. we do not send people to prison to do gods job of retribution.
  - Dylan16807 12y ago
    The punishment is being trapped in the room, not how much toilet paper is in the room.
  - Dylan16807 12y ago
    The punishment is being trapped in the room, not how much toilet paper is in the room. Taking away toilet paper is just a petty insult. And yes it's not done to take away God's job, but many people will tell you a key part of prison is retribution.
  - Dylan16807 12y ago
    The punishment is being trapped in the room, not how much toilet paper is in the room. Taking away toilet paper is just a petty insult. And yes it's not done to take away God's job, but many people will tell you a key part of prison is retribution.
  - Dylan16807 12y ago
    The punishment is being trapped in the room, not how much toilet paper is in the room. Taking away toilet paper is just a petty insult. And yes it's not done to take away God's job, but many people will tell you a key part of prison is retribution.
  - 12y ago

by MrJagil 12y ago

Dylan16807 12y ago

>Yes it does. "deserves" very much alludes to revenge, not rehabilitation. Possibly revenge. You might want nobody to ever face that person again, etc. Even if it's revenge that doesn't mean you want them to suffer in any particular way. Take away their freedom and turn them into an inert ignorable abstract in a box somewhere. You could stick them in an average motel room and the result would be the same. >could you elaborate? Just as an example, Christianity is pretty big on the concept of retribution. While it does say that it's God's job rather than man's, that doesn't change that it declares bad people deserve punishment independent of the deterrence factor.

dragonwriter 12y ago
> Just as an example, Christianity is pretty big on the concept of retribution. That's...debatable, and varies considerably between different approaches to Christianity, even within individual denominations/sects. > While it does say that it's God's job rather than man's, that doesn't change that it declares bad people deserve punishment independent of the deterrence factor. This is only true of Christianity in general if you define "bad people" extremely broadly; Christianity in general holds that essentially infinite punishment is deserved by (or, in some formulations, the natural consequence of) sin, of which all humans [0] are guilty. Christianity is -- in pretty much all formulations -- very much about God eliminating this deserved punishment or bearing (through Christ) in the place of sinners this natural cost. So, one could argue at least as convincingly (if not more) that the central theme of Christianity is refraining from retribution even where it is "deserved" as one could argue that "Christianity is pretty big on the concept of retribution". [0] with either 1 or 2 (exactly, not as a figurative form for "a small number") exceptions, ever
- Dylan16807 12y ago
  I am intentionally being very broad, yes. I'm only trying to support my claim that 'deserving' punishment depends on your moral system. Maybe I should focus on Judaism? I'm really not trying to get into any specific systems. >refraining from retribution That's very true, but the important thing here is that it's deserved in the first place.
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    > That's very true, but the important thing here is that it's deserved in the first place. I don't think that's the important thing here; I think that whether it is appropriate for any person to exact it is at least as important in discussing whether punishment (which is an action) "makes sense". Even if a cost is viewed as earned within a moral system, if that moral system equally holds that it is immoral for any person to impose that cost on the one that deserves it, retributive punishment does not make sense in that moral system.
    - Dylan16807 12y ago
      Once it's accepted that some people think retributive punishment is moral, it's a small and obvious step to realize that some people think it's right to have humans dealing out that punishment. Especially people influenced by earlier-mentioned moral systems that don't believe in an afterlife.
    - Dylan16807 12y ago
      Once it's accepted that some people think retributive punishment is moral, it's a small and obvious step to realize that some people think it's right to have humans dealing out that punishment. Especially people influenced by earlier-mentioned moral systems that don't believe in an afterlife.
    - Dylan16807 12y ago
      Once it's accepted that some people think retributive punishment is moral, imo it's a small and obvious step to realize that some people think it's right to have humans dealing out that punishment. Especially people influenced by earlier-mentioned moral systems that don't believe in an afterlife.
MrJagil 12y ago
> You could stick them in an average motel room and the result would be the same. I guess this thread of discussion is getting moot and semantic, but I do find it curious that someone would say "that person deserves to be in a motel room", without that motel room indicating some kind of punishment (revenge). "deserves" indicates that he should suffer somehow, i maintain. > Just as an example, Christianity is pretty big on the concept of retribution. While it does say that it's God's job rather than man's, that doesn't change that it declares bad people deserve punishment independent of the deterrence factor. Excellent point! You are speaking in strictly logical terms though, which is why i referenced dialectics earlier. It is very hard to discuss this subject meaningfully if you're ignoring all the intricacies of real life. I.e. we do not send people to prison to do gods job of retribution.
- Dylan16807 12y ago
  The punishment is being trapped in the room, not how much toilet paper is in the room.
- Dylan16807 12y ago
  The punishment is being trapped in the room, not how much toilet paper is in the room. Taking away toilet paper is just a petty insult. And yes it's not done to take away God's job, but many people will tell you a key part of prison is retribution.
- Dylan16807 12y ago
  The punishment is being trapped in the room, not how much toilet paper is in the room. Taking away toilet paper is just a petty insult. And yes it's not done to take away God's job, but many people will tell you a key part of prison is retribution.
- Dylan16807 12y ago
  The punishment is being trapped in the room, not how much toilet paper is in the room. Taking away toilet paper is just a petty insult. And yes it's not done to take away God's job, but many people will tell you a key part of prison is retribution.
- 12y ago