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So, a person with a tourist visa isn't able to do any work in their own hotel room, no matter what it is or for whom? Is it that they aren't supposed to do a se

So, a person with a tourist visa isn't able to do any work in their own hotel room, no matter what it is or for whom? Is it that they aren't supposed to do a service for anyone else (such as cook for a friend, or translate anything for a relative back home) or that they can't receive money? What if their company is generating passive income for them back home? Are they not supposed to access it? How are they supposed to pay for all the touristy stuff? "Sorry sir. We noticed you were debugging your iPhone app in your hotel room, a version of which is being sold in the app store. You will now go to Thai Jail or be deported."

seanmcdirmid 12y ago
> So, a person with a tourist visa isn't able to do any work in their own hotel room, no matter what it is or for whom? Yep. > Is it that they aren't supposed to do a service for anyone else (such as cook for a friend, or translate anything for a relative back home) or that they can't receive money? You just can't get paid. If you were cooking for a "friend" but you were actually their personal chef...you would need a working visa. For a visa waver country, you usually have the right to go to that country to attend conferences or training, but you aren't supposed to do any "work" like say...programming or writing documentation (again value creation). > What is their company is generating passive income for them back home? Passive and investment income don't count, only work that creates value and is paid accordingly. If you want to make investments in the country, there is a non tourist visa for that (and sometimes it is allowed on visa waver). > How are they supposed to pay for all the touristy stuff? Through the income you earned working hard back home. > "Sorry sir. We noticed you were debugging your iPhone app in your hotel room, a version of which is being sold in the app store. You will now go to Thai Jail or be deported." Yep. It hasn't happened yet, but there was a scare a few months ago: http://www.itworld.com/article/2695072/mobile/digital-nomads-in-thailand-get-a-scare.html http://www.itworld.com/article/2695072/mobile/digital-nomads... A good description of the situation is here: http://ashleyconnor.co.uk/blog/2014/09/07/the-digital-nomad-and-immigration-law/ http://ashleyconnor.co.uk/blog/2014/09/07/the-digital-nomad-...
- EGreg 12y ago
  Interesting. But the article seems to suggest the exact opposite: In the end, the whole thing turned out to be a misunderstanding. Immigration officials thought that the nomads were actually Punspace employees, and, as such, would have been required to have work permits. After several hours of worry and hassles, everybody was allowed to go back about their business and nobody was fined or deported. Punspace’s owners were, according to Johnny FD, very responsive and helpful and gave everyone a free month of usage for all the trouble. This whole situation can be a viewed a win for digital nomads, since the Thai authorities, ultimately, confirmed that they can work in the country on a valid tourist visa. This incident also comes about a month after Chiang Mai immigration officials declared that digital nomads could work under a tourist visa. I mean, after all, any content you create (be it writing a book in your spare time, with intent of publishing when ou come back, or taking a video with intent of showing it for money back home) would be potentially work. If that was the case then any person arriving with less than X amount of local currency could be detained after a few months on the basis that they couldn't possibly pay their way unless they had an income from somewhere.
  - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
    Read the second link. The literal reading of Thai immigration law is very strict, enforcement is another matter. Even if, as you say, Thai authorities casually say "it's ok", that isn't at all precedent and if they decide tomorrow to bring you in, they just will because it is easy to show that you are breaking the law. It is not like the USA or western countries where laws are more clear cut and more consistently enforced. Don't expect anyone to be reasonable.
- _delirium 12y ago
  I can see immigration authorities getting peeved over people who are essentially running a freelance business from the country (hence cracking down on coworking spaces). That looks more like working in the country rather than really working back home: even if all your customers are abroad, the place of your self-employment as a freelancer is where you customarily actually reside and do the work. So if you maintain an office much of the year in Thailand and don't maintain one in the U.S., that sure looks like you're working in Thailand. But most countries don't categorically exclude doing work for a foreign employer while on a visa-free visit. The U.S. visa-waiver program explicitly allows "travel for business or pleasure" up to 90 days, and the EU has an analogous "business travel" exemption. Doing work for your normal "home" employer is expected under the definition of "business travel", which can and usually does include on-site work in the country (not only remote work for your home office). That's what the business travel visa exemption is largely intended to facilitate: things like BP London sending staff to Houston for 3 weeks to supervise plant startup, or Microsoft sending some staff from Redmond to Ireland to hash out a product design in person. As long as it's temporary (typically <90 days) and the employee continues to be employed normally by the home office (not paid by the local office), it doesn't have to be confined to training or conferences, and can include actual work.

seanmcdirmid 12y ago

> So, a person with a tourist visa isn't able to do any work in their own hotel room, no matter what it is or for whom? Yep. > Is it that they aren't supposed to do a service for anyone else (such as cook for a friend, or translate anything for a relative back home) or that they can't receive money? You just can't get paid. If you were cooking for a "friend" but you were actually their personal chef...you would need a working visa. For a visa waver country, you usually have the right to go to that country to attend conferences or training, but you aren't supposed to do any "work" like say...programming or writing documentation (again value creation). > What is their company is generating passive income for them back home? Passive and investment income don't count, only work that creates value and is paid accordingly. If you want to make investments in the country, there is a non tourist visa for that (and sometimes it is allowed on visa waver). > How are they supposed to pay for all the touristy stuff? Through the income you earned working hard back home. > "Sorry sir. We noticed you were debugging your iPhone app in your hotel room, a version of which is being sold in the app store. You will now go to Thai Jail or be deported." Yep. It hasn't happened yet, but there was a scare a few months ago: http://www.itworld.com/article/2695072/mobile/digital-nomads-in-thailand-get-a-scare.html http://www.itworld.com/article/2695072/mobile/digital-nomads... A good description of the situation is here: http://ashleyconnor.co.uk/blog/2014/09/07/the-digital-nomad-and-immigration-law/ http://ashleyconnor.co.uk/blog/2014/09/07/the-digital-nomad-...

EGreg 12y ago
Interesting. But the article seems to suggest the exact opposite: In the end, the whole thing turned out to be a misunderstanding. Immigration officials thought that the nomads were actually Punspace employees, and, as such, would have been required to have work permits. After several hours of worry and hassles, everybody was allowed to go back about their business and nobody was fined or deported. Punspace’s owners were, according to Johnny FD, very responsive and helpful and gave everyone a free month of usage for all the trouble. This whole situation can be a viewed a win for digital nomads, since the Thai authorities, ultimately, confirmed that they can work in the country on a valid tourist visa. This incident also comes about a month after Chiang Mai immigration officials declared that digital nomads could work under a tourist visa. I mean, after all, any content you create (be it writing a book in your spare time, with intent of publishing when ou come back, or taking a video with intent of showing it for money back home) would be potentially work. If that was the case then any person arriving with less than X amount of local currency could be detained after a few months on the basis that they couldn't possibly pay their way unless they had an income from somewhere.
- seanmcdirmid 12y ago
  Read the second link. The literal reading of Thai immigration law is very strict, enforcement is another matter. Even if, as you say, Thai authorities casually say "it's ok", that isn't at all precedent and if they decide tomorrow to bring you in, they just will because it is easy to show that you are breaking the law. It is not like the USA or western countries where laws are more clear cut and more consistently enforced. Don't expect anyone to be reasonable.
_delirium 12y ago
I can see immigration authorities getting peeved over people who are essentially running a freelance business from the country (hence cracking down on coworking spaces). That looks more like working in the country rather than really working back home: even if all your customers are abroad, the place of your self-employment as a freelancer is where you customarily actually reside and do the work. So if you maintain an office much of the year in Thailand and don't maintain one in the U.S., that sure looks like you're working in Thailand. But most countries don't categorically exclude doing work for a foreign employer while on a visa-free visit. The U.S. visa-waiver program explicitly allows "travel for business or pleasure" up to 90 days, and the EU has an analogous "business travel" exemption. Doing work for your normal "home" employer is expected under the definition of "business travel", which can and usually does include on-site work in the country (not only remote work for your home office). That's what the business travel visa exemption is largely intended to facilitate: things like BP London sending staff to Houston for 3 weeks to supervise plant startup, or Microsoft sending some staff from Redmond to Ireland to hash out a product design in person. As long as it's temporary (typically <90 days) and the employee continues to be employed normally by the home office (not paid by the local office), it doesn't have to be confined to training or conferences, and can include actual work.