4 ms·

Probably not HN worthy but isn't it depressing to see things that are highly unlikely to ever improve?

by chanux 12y ago

rtpg 12y ago
There are countries where not as many people are locked up, prison sentences are shorter, and as a result the people locked up are given a minimum of humanity. By beating it into the minds of everyone (especially in more privileged classes who won't come within 500 feet of somebody who has seen the inside of a jail in their lifetime) of how absolutely dehumanising prison is, we could maybe stop demanding people be thrown into jail for 25 years.
- ams6110 12y ago
  Some people deserve to be in prison for 25 years, or the rest of their lives. This is not to discount your first point that we may well be locking too many people up.
  - bambax 12y ago
    > Some people deserve to be in prison for 25 years, or the rest of their lives. Really, no.
    - logicchains 12y ago
      Not even this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik?
      - logicchains 12y ago
        To the downvoters, what alternative to prison would you prefer for someone who killed over 70 people in cold blood?
        deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
        toonshow 12y ago
        25 years (if that's what it takes) of therapy to fully understand why he did it, how we can make life better for everyone so the next person doesn't feel this is their only option, and perhaps after a couple of decades of empathy he will realize why what he did was wrong and we can all move forward in peace and greater knowledge. Instead of primal vengeance that makes us feel better while learning nothing. If we're going to spend the effort and money to incarcerate someone for that long, I don't see how turning it into intensive therapy instead is any more work -- and it's certainly more beneficial to society.
      - MrJagil 12y ago
        The deal is, who does it help? I live in Denmark, have norwegian friends and family. I might think he is the devil, but it does not make sense to punish him; it helps no one but my ego. There is certainly a case to be made that he is too dangerous to let outside, no way I will disagree with that notion. But having him fight for toilet paper is pointless cruelty, and there is no sense in fighting the pointless cruelty of killing with pointless cruelty poor living conditions. Using Breivik as an example does not further the discussion though, as it is such an extreme case. It's fear mongering, and you're disregarding Hegelian dialectics by arguing in such logical extremes. I think we can all agree that lobbing the dysfunctioning members of society together in a desensitized and unsanitary confined area is no way to produce functioning, productive members of society.
        Dylan16807 12y ago
        'deserves to be in prison' does not imply 'deserves terrible living conditions' So most of your comment is wasted. As far as whether punishment 'makes sense', that depends on what moral system you use. I wouldn't treat it as so obvious.
        MrJagil 12y ago
        'deserves to be in prison' does not imply 'deserves terrible living conditions' Yes it does. "deserves" very much alludes to revenge, not rehabilitation. "As far as whether punishment 'makes sense', that depends on what moral system you use. I wouldn't treat it as so obvious." Everything depends on everything; could you elaborate? Just to further the discussion a bit. Being a deterrent has nothing to do with morals, which I see as the main argument for punishment so I'm curious where you're getting at.
        Dylan16807 12y ago
        >Yes it does. "deserves" very much alludes to revenge, not rehabilitation. Possibly revenge. You might want nobody to ever face that person again, etc. Even if it's revenge that doesn't mean you want them to suffer in any particular way. Take away their freedom and turn them into an inert ignorable abstract in a box somewhere. You could stick them in an average motel room and the result would be the same. >could you elaborate? Just as an example, Christianity is pretty big on the concept of retribution. While it does say that it's God's job rather than man's, that doesn't change that it declares bad people deserve punishment independent of the deterrence factor.

Probably not HN worthy but isn't it depressing to see things that are highly unlikely to ever improve?

by chanux 12y ago

Probably not HN worthy but isn't it depressing to see things that are highly unlikely to ever improve?

rtpg 12y ago

There are countries where not as many people are locked up, prison sentences are shorter, and as a result the people locked up are given a minimum of humanity. By beating it into the minds of everyone (especially in more privileged classes who won't come within 500 feet of somebody who has seen the inside of a jail in their lifetime) of how absolutely dehumanising prison is, we could maybe stop demanding people be thrown into jail for 25 years.

ams6110 12y ago
Some people deserve to be in prison for 25 years, or the rest of their lives. This is not to discount your first point that we may well be locking too many people up.
- bambax 12y ago
  > Some people deserve to be in prison for 25 years, or the rest of their lives. Really, no.
  - logicchains 12y ago
    Not even this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik?
    - logicchains 12y ago
      To the downvoters, what alternative to prison would you prefer for someone who killed over 70 people in cold blood?
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
      - toonshow 12y ago
        25 years (if that's what it takes) of therapy to fully understand why he did it, how we can make life better for everyone so the next person doesn't feel this is their only option, and perhaps after a couple of decades of empathy he will realize why what he did was wrong and we can all move forward in peace and greater knowledge. Instead of primal vengeance that makes us feel better while learning nothing. If we're going to spend the effort and money to incarcerate someone for that long, I don't see how turning it into intensive therapy instead is any more work -- and it's certainly more beneficial to society.
    - MrJagil 12y ago
      The deal is, who does it help? I live in Denmark, have norwegian friends and family. I might think he is the devil, but it does not make sense to punish him; it helps no one but my ego. There is certainly a case to be made that he is too dangerous to let outside, no way I will disagree with that notion. But having him fight for toilet paper is pointless cruelty, and there is no sense in fighting the pointless cruelty of killing with pointless cruelty poor living conditions. Using Breivik as an example does not further the discussion though, as it is such an extreme case. It's fear mongering, and you're disregarding Hegelian dialectics by arguing in such logical extremes. I think we can all agree that lobbing the dysfunctioning members of society together in a desensitized and unsanitary confined area is no way to produce functioning, productive members of society.
      - Dylan16807 12y ago
        'deserves to be in prison' does not imply 'deserves terrible living conditions' So most of your comment is wasted. As far as whether punishment 'makes sense', that depends on what moral system you use. I wouldn't treat it as so obvious.
        MrJagil 12y ago
        'deserves to be in prison' does not imply 'deserves terrible living conditions' Yes it does. "deserves" very much alludes to revenge, not rehabilitation. "As far as whether punishment 'makes sense', that depends on what moral system you use. I wouldn't treat it as so obvious." Everything depends on everything; could you elaborate? Just to further the discussion a bit. Being a deterrent has nothing to do with morals, which I see as the main argument for punishment so I'm curious where you're getting at.
        Dylan16807 12y ago
        >Yes it does. "deserves" very much alludes to revenge, not rehabilitation. Possibly revenge. You might want nobody to ever face that person again, etc. Even if it's revenge that doesn't mean you want them to suffer in any particular way. Take away their freedom and turn them into an inert ignorable abstract in a box somewhere. You could stick them in an average motel room and the result would be the same. >could you elaborate? Just as an example, Christianity is pretty big on the concept of retribution. While it does say that it's God's job rather than man's, that doesn't change that it declares bad people deserve punishment independent of the deterrence factor.