4 ms·

Just a note on the discourse: the point "I own it, I should be able to use it the way I want" feels like not really effective (as a rhetoric) in many part of th

Just a note on the discourse: the point "I own it, I should be able to use it the way I want" feels like not really effective (as a rhetoric) in many part of the western world and in many social circles. I really feel for example in France it would be easily brushed off using analogy to construction permits or driver licenses, or just put the person in some crazy-libertarian box ("the kind that want to print firearms at home"). There might be ways of framing the issue that fit better in a socio-democrat context (Europe, etc.). Ideas?

thomasahle 12y ago
I'm not sure either. But at least in by country the leftish parties seem the most interested in protecting consumer rights, which might be a way to go. The libertarians seem more worried about protecting the company's "intellectual property" and include management engines in "their own" products.
TeMPOraL 12y ago
Maybe stress that the computer is a creative tool and should not have artificial limits put in place? Compare this to a hammer and imagine that one weekend you wanted to finish that cupboard you're building in your garage, but your hammer starts throwing exceptions because your nails are not Apple iNails or otherwise MAFIAA-certified ones. "How dare you buy generic nails in a mom&pop shop around the corner?" General-purpose computer is a tool that should be able to execute arbitrary code its users want to. I think Cory Doctorow summed it up the best: http://boingboing.net/2012/08/23/civilwar.html http://boingboing.net/2012/08/23/civilwar.html.
DanBC 12y ago
Europe has strong consumer protection rights. The angle to take is that media is sold misleadingly. When I buy a DVD / Bluray I am paying for a physical disc and a licence to use the contents of the disc. That licence is restrictive and restricts my rights more than law. Thus, I am not allowed to extract a short extract to use in an educational setting (fair dealings; fair use). Packaging and marketing of DVD / Bluray is unclear about this and gives the impression that you are "buying a movie", not buying some plastic and a licence.
- Ar-Curunir 12y ago
  Exactly, this is the main problem I have with the people who claim in comment sections across the internet that since I'm only paying for a license to play the content, I can't complain about owning it. Nowhere on the iTunes store does it say, "Click here to purchase license to play video". Not on Amazon or Google Play either. This is just a case of false advertising by content producers and distributors. If they can cheat me, why shouldn't I be entitled to cheat back?
  - josteink 12y ago
    While that is a reasonable question, a even more reasonable question would be why are they allowed to cheat you and why do you have to cheat them back in the first place?
    - Ar-Curunir 12y ago
      Sorry for the late reply, but I was simply framing my response in the context of the current situation, where if I want the right to play content that I purchased, then I basically have to resort to 'cheating'. Since I was misleadingly led to believe that I was purchasing the content itself, and not merely a right to play it within some closed box, I was cheated. I then have to resolve to cheating to regain what I believe I lost. If politicians took a stronger stand against the tactics of media companies, then I most likely wouldn't need to cheat.
  - w0utert 12y ago
    You acknowledged that you were aware of these facts when you read the EULA (you did read it, right?) at some point in the past when installing or updating iTunes (or whatever other service). I know it's ridiculous but that's how it works, make sure to show a 50+ page 'you basically have no rights' notice that you have to 'agree', and you can strip whatever privileges you like from your paying customers.
    - DanBC 12y ago
      That doesn't work in Germany and probably not in other EU countries. Cookie law shows that Europe will go after these small things. (But also that their "solution" might be stupid.)
iSnow 12y ago
> the point "I own it, I should be able to use it the way I want" feels like not really effective (as a rhetoric) in many part of the western world and in many social circles. I really feel for example in France I really think that's a complete strawman. People in France (or Europe in general) very much feel like "this is my computer, I use it any way I want". Personally I think even more so than Americans, because usually consumer protection from corporate scheming is better in Europe. BTW libertarians would be a-ok with corporations defining how your computer works, that's entrepreneurial freedom, after all.
- crdoconnor 12y ago
  >BTW libertarians would be a-ok with corporations defining how your computer works, that's entrepreneurial freedom, after all. Only because they imagine markets ('free') to be entirely defined according to consumers' desires, as opposed to the mess of monopolies, cartels and semi-cartels that exist naturally in the real world.
gbog 12y ago
For me in France and Germany the correct angle is that if you do not control your computer, some big crazy American corp do, and can and will do whatever they want with your content, which usually means make money with it.
belorn 12y ago
To use it "the way I want" is much smaller priority as to be able to dictate who uses my private property, for what purpose, and when. DRM violates each of those, and as rhetoric goes, the only law we should need is private property laws. A driver license allow me to drive legally on the public road. It do not grant anyone else to repossess my car, instruct it to not run if someone else is behind the wheel, dictate who might repair or or what parts it will accept.

thomasahle 12y ago

I'm not sure either. But at least in by country the leftish parties seem the most interested in protecting consumer rights, which might be a way to go. The libertarians seem more worried about protecting the company's "intellectual property" and include management engines in "their own" products.

TeMPOraL 12y ago

Maybe stress that the computer is a creative tool and should not have artificial limits put in place? Compare this to a hammer and imagine that one weekend you wanted to finish that cupboard you're building in your garage, but your hammer starts throwing exceptions because your nails are not Apple iNails or otherwise MAFIAA-certified ones. "How dare you buy generic nails in a mom&pop shop around the corner?" General-purpose computer is a tool that should be able to execute arbitrary code its users want to. I think Cory Doctorow summed it up the best: http://boingboing.net/2012/08/23/civilwar.html http://boingboing.net/2012/08/23/civilwar.html.

DanBC 12y ago

Europe has strong consumer protection rights. The angle to take is that media is sold misleadingly. When I buy a DVD / Bluray I am paying for a physical disc and a licence to use the contents of the disc. That licence is restrictive and restricts my rights more than law. Thus, I am not allowed to extract a short extract to use in an educational setting (fair dealings; fair use). Packaging and marketing of DVD / Bluray is unclear about this and gives the impression that you are "buying a movie", not buying some plastic and a licence.

Ar-Curunir 12y ago
Exactly, this is the main problem I have with the people who claim in comment sections across the internet that since I'm only paying for a license to play the content, I can't complain about owning it. Nowhere on the iTunes store does it say, "Click here to purchase license to play video". Not on Amazon or Google Play either. This is just a case of false advertising by content producers and distributors. If they can cheat me, why shouldn't I be entitled to cheat back?
- josteink 12y ago
  While that is a reasonable question, a even more reasonable question would be why are they allowed to cheat you and why do you have to cheat them back in the first place?
  - Ar-Curunir 12y ago
    Sorry for the late reply, but I was simply framing my response in the context of the current situation, where if I want the right to play content that I purchased, then I basically have to resort to 'cheating'. Since I was misleadingly led to believe that I was purchasing the content itself, and not merely a right to play it within some closed box, I was cheated. I then have to resolve to cheating to regain what I believe I lost. If politicians took a stronger stand against the tactics of media companies, then I most likely wouldn't need to cheat.
- w0utert 12y ago
  You acknowledged that you were aware of these facts when you read the EULA (you did read it, right?) at some point in the past when installing or updating iTunes (or whatever other service). I know it's ridiculous but that's how it works, make sure to show a 50+ page 'you basically have no rights' notice that you have to 'agree', and you can strip whatever privileges you like from your paying customers.
  - DanBC 12y ago
    That doesn't work in Germany and probably not in other EU countries. Cookie law shows that Europe will go after these small things. (But also that their "solution" might be stupid.)

iSnow 12y ago

> the point "I own it, I should be able to use it the way I want" feels like not really effective (as a rhetoric) in many part of the western world and in many social circles. I really feel for example in France I really think that's a complete strawman. People in France (or Europe in general) very much feel like "this is my computer, I use it any way I want". Personally I think even more so than Americans, because usually consumer protection from corporate scheming is better in Europe. BTW libertarians would be a-ok with corporations defining how your computer works, that's entrepreneurial freedom, after all.

crdoconnor 12y ago
>BTW libertarians would be a-ok with corporations defining how your computer works, that's entrepreneurial freedom, after all. Only because they imagine markets ('free') to be entirely defined according to consumers' desires, as opposed to the mess of monopolies, cartels and semi-cartels that exist naturally in the real world.

gbog 12y ago

For me in France and Germany the correct angle is that if you do not control your computer, some big crazy American corp do, and can and will do whatever they want with your content, which usually means make money with it.

belorn 12y ago

To use it "the way I want" is much smaller priority as to be able to dictate who uses my private property, for what purpose, and when. DRM violates each of those, and as rhetoric goes, the only law we should need is private property laws. A driver license allow me to drive legally on the public road. It do not grant anyone else to repossess my car, instruct it to not run if someone else is behind the wheel, dictate who might repair or or what parts it will accept.