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Not surprising considering the tricks they've been pulling of late. What can be said here? The people have chosen an autocratic government and often, without m

Not surprising considering the tricks they've been pulling of late. What can be said here? The people have chosen an autocratic government and often, without me even provoking them, will tell me how superior is is to western values, the same way Russians will also do. As an international traveler and sometimes international worker, this is fairly typical stuff. I see this kind of thing on VK and Facebook all the time. Everytime some autocratic regime cracks down the people go, "Please more sir! We dont need the Western pigs and their decadent values!" They buy into the anti-Western narrative pretty deeply. My personal take is that there's a great war for democracy going on right now and the final lines are being drawn. The weaker autocrats have fallen (mideast, Ukraine, etc) and the stronger ones are falling (Syria) but the strongest have double-down on oppression (China, Russia, Iran, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, etc). I think this political dynamic will be the defining narrative for quite some time. I also think a balkanazation of the internet is slowly happening. China is certainly doing it and Russia might follow. I personally don't have a big problem with this. Probably means less malware and cyberattacks for everyone. I think its obvious that easy access to information isn't this revolutionary thing, at least in autocratic regimes. People just seem to prefer state controlled media or narratives that fit in with their biases. Once China sets the precedent others will follow, especially if there's zero economic fallout from it.

edwinyzh 12y ago
"The people have chosen an autocratic government" - saying so is so unfair to us. Maybe people like me who desire for an unblocked Internet is a minority (when compared to the population in this country), but people who desire for safe milk and food, clean water and fresh air for their babies are not! But on the other hand, I must say that your observations described in your first paragraph are correct. Take the recent Hong Kong protest for an example, almost all people I know, including the highly educated people, are "tricked" by the censored local newspaper and are not on the same side of the HK people, and that made me sad and irritated...
- dragontamer 12y ago
  We in the US complain about our lack of choice in the political system. We have two parties, making our choices rather limited in elections. However, China has a one party system. There is no counter to the Communist Party.
  - dghughes 12y ago
    If you only vote Republican or only vote Democrat in a sense you've limited yourself to a one-party system.
    - joyofdata 12y ago
      Let's say you are sitting in your office for 8 hours. In one case you could leave but probably won't - in the other case your boss puts a lock on your door for those 8 hours. Would that make a difference to you?
      - plaguuuuuu 12y ago
        Poor analogy. And I don't think there needs to be an analogy; the issue is already quite simple. The USA's political system is substantially less free than many other nations. In turn, China is substantially less free than the US. Whether equating the two is really hyperbolic is debatable - functionally speaking, vested interests are allowed to run unchecked in both countries. The main difference really lies in the source of power. In China, the Party runs the show and corporations fall into line. In the US it's the opposite, where corporations hold sway over the white house. China at least has aspirations to lift the living standards of all its citizens. It's not easy but they're getting there - compare China with India for instance. Can't say the same for the US.
        seanmcdirmid 12y ago
        > In China, the Party runs the show and corporations fall into line. The corporations can always bribe into the party, and many of the corporations are owned by princelings (or say Wen Jiaobao mom's jewelry empire that got NYT blocked). I would say that China is much worse in that regard. > China at least has aspirations to lift the living standards of all its citizens. Income inequality is only getting worse, not better. All boats are lifting right now, just those with guangxi get lifted much faster, while those at the bottom barely keep pace with inflation. If the economy falters this year, it could get very interesting.
- fatjokes 12y ago
  > Take the recent Hong Kong protest for an example, almost all people I know, including the highly educated people, are "tricked" by the censored local newspaper and are not on the same side of the HK people, and that made me sad and irritated As I understood it, the HK protestors undermined their own support within China with their racism and condescension toward mainland Chinese and the perception* that they never protested autocratic British rule. If I were a Chinese citizen, even if I wanted the same things as the HK protestors, I wouldn't support them out of self-respect. *I say perception to give HK the benefit of the doubt. A quick Googling didn't yield anything except an unhelpful Quora answer.
igivanov 12y ago
I am not sure how blocking gmail has anything to do with democracy and "western values". OTOH the "western values" on the Internet as we've recently observed include total worldwide surveillance, hacking everything at will, manipulation of social networks and so on, so maybe your "democratic" high horse is not so high after all.
- mkawia 12y ago
  Surveillance is not a democratic value even the US is doing it. I can't imagine if my government blocked my gmail . I'll lose not just my email,play, my app engine websites etc etc.
- DenisM 12y ago
  Freedom of communication has a lot to do with western values. Democracy is about informed consent.
bertil 12y ago
There are rational reasons to prefer authoritative government, especially in changing countries, especially without a tradition of democracy. I have no idea why GMail was censored, but I´m assuming it has to do with heightened security protocol. It is likely that some people in China used the service for nefarious purposes (local official corruption is probable) and that the authorities wanted to keep opposable proof, in order be able to show to increasingly disgruntled citizenry that the rule of law can work -- as opposed to the often preferred option of social-media fuelled lynching. My point is not that banning GMail is good, but that you are judging an institution without knowing their intent. They could be wrong, but not for the reason that you do not give them. I certainly agree on the balkanisation, though. Ebbs and flows, I hope. As for your more general point: Western values are great in Western countries; Western inequality in a country with red envelopes and little over-sight of officials is less ideal. Western alcohol is fun in a fancy restaurant with a French ceremonial Maitre d´ that frowns on excess; it is less ideal in a country without a tradition for moderation. The subsequent lash out can be amusing where a hen party ends trying to act sober and cute in front of a jaded cop; it is far less so to see your touchy-feely employer come home drunk in a country where domestic employment is akin to servitude. I'm obviously exaggerating, but Westernisation (and simultaneous but unrelated issues, like working class disempowerment) has left many people wondering, and they found reasons to doubt. If you are a traveller who mainly faces empowered businessmen , it is difficult to conceive good examples of this -- but many stories would make you pause. Vice.com (has a very criticisable editorial line, but) offers a unique look in many such examples: I remember a couple about plastic surgery that were very telling (and unexpected for people more used to judging people´s coding style on a screen than their physique on a dance floor), one in Korea the other in the Caribbean. International style magazine has lead Koreans to go under the knife and unreasonable amount of time to look more Westerners: nothing to do with SMTP in theory, but enough to let family members amalgamate Yahoo! editorial choices and their shame over a daughter´s botched operation. I have no idea what aspect of Western world leads women in the Central America to inject motor oil in their… Well, try to look for that episode if you care and care stand far more than gore (it is incredibly gross) but in it, you'll hear people accuse International standards and social media a lot. It is sad for Westerners living in an Emirate when that only bar where you can kiss in public without being scorned gets closed for `indecency´ but I suspect there are more nefarious things that have happened there than diplomats remembering their honeymoon in Paris. My experience is pushing on "What do you mean by corrupt Western values?" doesn't usually lead to a detailed description of a working democracy.
mkawia 12y ago
what's happening in Syria(and other middle east countries) is worse than autocracy. Autocracy over a state in chaos anyday.
bilbo0s 12y ago
I think you understand different values to be important than a Chinese does. A Chinese may not care about open internet as much as you do. (Though even that is for different reasons than you outlined. ie-not so much because of 'decadent values' as much as because the average Chinese believes the West uses the internet and Western news media outlets to 'keep China down'. It's more for nationalistic reasons than for values reasons.) But to say that, therefore, people in China want more oppression... is a bit of a stretch. They just see the open internet as a tool of Western oppression, and they say, "Good. The government is protecting me from it." Now on other issues, Chinese are also demanding to be protected. From things like corruption. However, because of the way things work in China... this desire to be protected from corruption, at times, actually ends up strengthening the central government as well. This is because the people who are normally... say... appropriating land illegally... are local officials. The local people, on the other hand, know that if they protest long enough, and loud enough, that Beijing will come. At which point things will go in a decidedly bad fashion for the local bosses. So Beijing comes off as their 'savior' in a lot of these cases as well. I guess what I'm trying to say is that, I really think Chinese are looking at the problems they have from a different perspective than you do. From their perspective... Beijing is a help with a lot of their issues... not a hindrance or the cause. From their perspective, oppression hasn't 'doubled down', Beijing is ALLEVIATING a lot of oppression. Getting a better understanding of how Chinese people feel about things... in addition to an understanding of which issues they believe Beijing to be the cause of, might go a long way towards alleviating your frustrations.
- Chronic30 12y ago
  Beijing routinely sends it's military to remote regions and kills thousands of people (usually Muslims) and it never hits the world news. Beijing also prevents information (as well as people) flowing from one part of the country to another, both physically and digitally, to prevent outbreaks (typically against the government). These are just two examples. Please tell me how Beijing is alleviating oppression.
  - lancewiggs 12y ago
    The dramatic lowering of the number of people living in poverty in China is one of the world's greatest recent achievements. The rise of China has delivered a lot to the world, and even more to China. It's not without problems, but those in turn are solveable in time.
frozenport 12y ago
>> People just seem to prefer state controlled media or narratives that fit in with their biases Except when they don't. For example, it is not unreasonable to say that Putin lost the presidential elections in many regions (recall news stories where they showed 150% of the vote). Most importantly this 'perceived' popularity leads to people not turning out to vote, making it a self fulfilling prophecy. Indeed, the basis for Putin's universal popularity is 'precieved' popularity. Many Chinese support their cultural superiority BUT many will quickly point out problems with their government and the need for reform. The population that genuinely supports autocratic systems in Russia and China are in the minority, the rest are dis-disorganized, demoralized and confused but they are also in the majority. That why China runs their firewall. >> I personally don't have a big problem with this. Probably means less malware and cyberattacks for everyone. The internet has a cultural program of uniting humanity which fosters understanding leading to practical things like trade and a less tit-for-tat aggression.
- thesz 12y ago
  http://www.snopes.com/politics/ballot/2012fraud.asp http://www.snopes.com/politics/ballot/2012fraud.asp Even one county with 100% votes for Obama is a sign of fraud. You are hooked on simple journalistic reporting mistake and this hook does not do good for you reasoning. To be clear, I think that Western people through all their hiatory enjoed a wast energy surplus. There were reports by early US settlers about buffalo herds that was to ride around in a day! The same is true for Europe. This means where westerners can get away with some freedom, russians have to be very tight in their energy budget. For China it is about same - small group rules huge and diverse population and has to schedule resources mindfully. The situation hasn't changed since forever. If you want to help Russia and/or China, open your IP to them. Take profits from not-energy-constrained West, help energy constrained East.
  - eru 12y ago
    By `energy', do you mean the same thing physicists mean? If yes, Russia has lots of oil, and China (and anyone else) can just build nuclear power plants. Problem solved.
vehementi 12y ago
> often, without me even provoking them, will tell me how superior is is to western values, the same way Russians will also do. Is this surprising or weighty to you considering that censored brainwashing culture they've grown up in? > They buy into the anti-Western narrative They do not "buy into the anti-Western narrative", they are tricked into it. All of this makes > The people have chosen an autocratic government and Really silly.
mahyarm 12y ago
For those russians, I think it's more the general trend that people think whatever country / culture they've grown up in is the best. The french think they are the best people, the british think they're the best deep down inside, chinese think they're the best, americans think they're better than everyone, and the canadians think they're better than the americans. The mexicans are proud to be mexican, the malaysians are proud to be malaysian and so on. Everyone thinks they are the best in some way, even if they think all of the gringos have a lot of cash and you can't breathe the air in beijing. The middle class think they're better than the lower and upper class, and the lower class think they're better than the rest. SF thinks it's better than NYC and those finance wonks with our software industry, NYC thinks it better than the rest of the world, and DC thinks I'm the center of power here! My city's sports team is the best sports team, and screw my city's rivals! Xbox vs Playstation, this vs that. Those scary islamic people vs. my secular atheism or mormonism. It's the human tribalism instinct, and it's turtles all the way down.

edwinyzh 12y ago

"The people have chosen an autocratic government" - saying so is so unfair to us. Maybe people like me who desire for an unblocked Internet is a minority (when compared to the population in this country), but people who desire for safe milk and food, clean water and fresh air for their babies are not! But on the other hand, I must say that your observations described in your first paragraph are correct. Take the recent Hong Kong protest for an example, almost all people I know, including the highly educated people, are "tricked" by the censored local newspaper and are not on the same side of the HK people, and that made me sad and irritated...

dragontamer 12y ago
We in the US complain about our lack of choice in the political system. We have two parties, making our choices rather limited in elections. However, China has a one party system. There is no counter to the Communist Party.
- dghughes 12y ago
  If you only vote Republican or only vote Democrat in a sense you've limited yourself to a one-party system.
  - joyofdata 12y ago
    Let's say you are sitting in your office for 8 hours. In one case you could leave but probably won't - in the other case your boss puts a lock on your door for those 8 hours. Would that make a difference to you?
    - plaguuuuuu 12y ago
      Poor analogy. And I don't think there needs to be an analogy; the issue is already quite simple. The USA's political system is substantially less free than many other nations. In turn, China is substantially less free than the US. Whether equating the two is really hyperbolic is debatable - functionally speaking, vested interests are allowed to run unchecked in both countries. The main difference really lies in the source of power. In China, the Party runs the show and corporations fall into line. In the US it's the opposite, where corporations hold sway over the white house. China at least has aspirations to lift the living standards of all its citizens. It's not easy but they're getting there - compare China with India for instance. Can't say the same for the US.
      - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
        > In China, the Party runs the show and corporations fall into line. The corporations can always bribe into the party, and many of the corporations are owned by princelings (or say Wen Jiaobao mom's jewelry empire that got NYT blocked). I would say that China is much worse in that regard. > China at least has aspirations to lift the living standards of all its citizens. Income inequality is only getting worse, not better. All boats are lifting right now, just those with guangxi get lifted much faster, while those at the bottom barely keep pace with inflation. If the economy falters this year, it could get very interesting.
fatjokes 12y ago
> Take the recent Hong Kong protest for an example, almost all people I know, including the highly educated people, are "tricked" by the censored local newspaper and are not on the same side of the HK people, and that made me sad and irritated As I understood it, the HK protestors undermined their own support within China with their racism and condescension toward mainland Chinese and the perception* that they never protested autocratic British rule. If I were a Chinese citizen, even if I wanted the same things as the HK protestors, I wouldn't support them out of self-respect. *I say perception to give HK the benefit of the doubt. A quick Googling didn't yield anything except an unhelpful Quora answer.

igivanov 12y ago

I am not sure how blocking gmail has anything to do with democracy and "western values". OTOH the "western values" on the Internet as we've recently observed include total worldwide surveillance, hacking everything at will, manipulation of social networks and so on, so maybe your "democratic" high horse is not so high after all.

mkawia 12y ago
Surveillance is not a democratic value even the US is doing it. I can't imagine if my government blocked my gmail . I'll lose not just my email,play, my app engine websites etc etc.
DenisM 12y ago
Freedom of communication has a lot to do with western values. Democracy is about informed consent.

bertil 12y ago

There are rational reasons to prefer authoritative government, especially in changing countries, especially without a tradition of democracy. I have no idea why GMail was censored, but I´m assuming it has to do with heightened security protocol. It is likely that some people in China used the service for nefarious purposes (local official corruption is probable) and that the authorities wanted to keep opposable proof, in order be able to show to increasingly disgruntled citizenry that the rule of law can work -- as opposed to the often preferred option of social-media fuelled lynching. My point is not that banning GMail is good, but that you are judging an institution without knowing their intent. They could be wrong, but not for the reason that you do not give them. I certainly agree on the balkanisation, though. Ebbs and flows, I hope. As for your more general point: Western values are great in Western countries; Western inequality in a country with red envelopes and little over-sight of officials is less ideal. Western alcohol is fun in a fancy restaurant with a French ceremonial Maitre d´ that frowns on excess; it is less ideal in a country without a tradition for moderation. The subsequent lash out can be amusing where a hen party ends trying to act sober and cute in front of a jaded cop; it is far less so to see your touchy-feely employer come home drunk in a country where domestic employment is akin to servitude. I'm obviously exaggerating, but Westernisation (and simultaneous but unrelated issues, like working class disempowerment) has left many people wondering, and they found reasons to doubt. If you are a traveller who mainly faces empowered businessmen , it is difficult to conceive good examples of this -- but many stories would make you pause. Vice.com (has a very criticisable editorial line, but) offers a unique look in many such examples: I remember a couple about plastic surgery that were very telling (and unexpected for people more used to judging people´s coding style on a screen than their physique on a dance floor), one in Korea the other in the Caribbean. International style magazine has lead Koreans to go under the knife and unreasonable amount of time to look more Westerners: nothing to do with SMTP in theory, but enough to let family members amalgamate Yahoo! editorial choices and their shame over a daughter´s botched operation. I have no idea what aspect of Western world leads women in the Central America to inject motor oil in their… Well, try to look for that episode if you care and care stand far more than gore (it is incredibly gross) but in it, you'll hear people accuse International standards and social media a lot. It is sad for Westerners living in an Emirate when that only bar where you can kiss in public without being scorned gets closed for `indecency´ but I suspect there are more nefarious things that have happened there than diplomats remembering their honeymoon in Paris. My experience is pushing on "What do you mean by corrupt Western values?" doesn't usually lead to a detailed description of a working democracy.

mkawia 12y ago

what's happening in Syria(and other middle east countries) is worse than autocracy. Autocracy over a state in chaos anyday.

bilbo0s 12y ago

I think you understand different values to be important than a Chinese does. A Chinese may not care about open internet as much as you do. (Though even that is for different reasons than you outlined. ie-not so much because of 'decadent values' as much as because the average Chinese believes the West uses the internet and Western news media outlets to 'keep China down'. It's more for nationalistic reasons than for values reasons.) But to say that, therefore, people in China want more oppression... is a bit of a stretch. They just see the open internet as a tool of Western oppression, and they say, "Good. The government is protecting me from it." Now on other issues, Chinese are also demanding to be protected. From things like corruption. However, because of the way things work in China... this desire to be protected from corruption, at times, actually ends up strengthening the central government as well. This is because the people who are normally... say... appropriating land illegally... are local officials. The local people, on the other hand, know that if they protest long enough, and loud enough, that Beijing will come. At which point things will go in a decidedly bad fashion for the local bosses. So Beijing comes off as their 'savior' in a lot of these cases as well. I guess what I'm trying to say is that, I really think Chinese are looking at the problems they have from a different perspective than you do. From their perspective... Beijing is a help with a lot of their issues... not a hindrance or the cause. From their perspective, oppression hasn't 'doubled down', Beijing is ALLEVIATING a lot of oppression. Getting a better understanding of how Chinese people feel about things... in addition to an understanding of which issues they believe Beijing to be the cause of, might go a long way towards alleviating your frustrations.

Chronic30 12y ago
Beijing routinely sends it's military to remote regions and kills thousands of people (usually Muslims) and it never hits the world news. Beijing also prevents information (as well as people) flowing from one part of the country to another, both physically and digitally, to prevent outbreaks (typically against the government). These are just two examples. Please tell me how Beijing is alleviating oppression.
- lancewiggs 12y ago
  The dramatic lowering of the number of people living in poverty in China is one of the world's greatest recent achievements. The rise of China has delivered a lot to the world, and even more to China. It's not without problems, but those in turn are solveable in time.

frozenport 12y ago

>> People just seem to prefer state controlled media or narratives that fit in with their biases Except when they don't. For example, it is not unreasonable to say that Putin lost the presidential elections in many regions (recall news stories where they showed 150% of the vote). Most importantly this 'perceived' popularity leads to people not turning out to vote, making it a self fulfilling prophecy. Indeed, the basis for Putin's universal popularity is 'precieved' popularity. Many Chinese support their cultural superiority BUT many will quickly point out problems with their government and the need for reform. The population that genuinely supports autocratic systems in Russia and China are in the minority, the rest are dis-disorganized, demoralized and confused but they are also in the majority. That why China runs their firewall. >> I personally don't have a big problem with this. Probably means less malware and cyberattacks for everyone. The internet has a cultural program of uniting humanity which fosters understanding leading to practical things like trade and a less tit-for-tat aggression.

thesz 12y ago
http://www.snopes.com/politics/ballot/2012fraud.asp http://www.snopes.com/politics/ballot/2012fraud.asp Even one county with 100% votes for Obama is a sign of fraud. You are hooked on simple journalistic reporting mistake and this hook does not do good for you reasoning. To be clear, I think that Western people through all their hiatory enjoed a wast energy surplus. There were reports by early US settlers about buffalo herds that was to ride around in a day! The same is true for Europe. This means where westerners can get away with some freedom, russians have to be very tight in their energy budget. For China it is about same - small group rules huge and diverse population and has to schedule resources mindfully. The situation hasn't changed since forever. If you want to help Russia and/or China, open your IP to them. Take profits from not-energy-constrained West, help energy constrained East.
- eru 12y ago
  By `energy', do you mean the same thing physicists mean? If yes, Russia has lots of oil, and China (and anyone else) can just build nuclear power plants. Problem solved.

vehementi 12y ago

> often, without me even provoking them, will tell me how superior is is to western values, the same way Russians will also do. Is this surprising or weighty to you considering that censored brainwashing culture they've grown up in? > They buy into the anti-Western narrative They do not "buy into the anti-Western narrative", they are tricked into it. All of this makes > The people have chosen an autocratic government and Really silly.

mahyarm 12y ago

For those russians, I think it's more the general trend that people think whatever country / culture they've grown up in is the best. The french think they are the best people, the british think they're the best deep down inside, chinese think they're the best, americans think they're better than everyone, and the canadians think they're better than the americans. The mexicans are proud to be mexican, the malaysians are proud to be malaysian and so on. Everyone thinks they are the best in some way, even if they think all of the gringos have a lot of cash and you can't breathe the air in beijing. The middle class think they're better than the lower and upper class, and the lower class think they're better than the rest. SF thinks it's better than NYC and those finance wonks with our software industry, NYC thinks it better than the rest of the world, and DC thinks I'm the center of power here! My city's sports team is the best sports team, and screw my city's rivals! Xbox vs Playstation, this vs that. Those scary islamic people vs. my secular atheism or mormonism. It's the human tribalism instinct, and it's turtles all the way down.