4 ms·

What about the spying on Europeans or are they not considered people?

yuhong 12y ago
I think that is the point of the NSA and has since the beginning.
krapp 12y ago
Presumably, as Europeans are by definition not subject to American laws, they are not relevant to a case involving an American intelligence agency breaking American laws limiting American intelligence agencies' ability to spy on American citizens. Because of course, spying on people outside one's own country is what intelligence agencies are supposed to do.
- xnull2guest 12y ago
  America as a nation has always been drawn taut between its interests - intelligence, military, economic, political and otherwise - and its ideals which clearly state that "all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights" which includes a right to a liberty which excludes suspicion-less search and seizure and a right to be secure in their persons. Throughout the history of America we've seen the tension shift to one side of this rope or the other. through a series of Supreme Court decisions in the very early 1900's (during the Spanish American war) it was settled at the highest level that American occupied territories do not have a right to self-determination nor to many other constitutional rights. Today this is status quo.
- cgio 12y ago
  Europeans are not subject to American laws, but they would be if they stole something in the states, or they would expect to be protected by US police when visiting the states. Can someone with knowledge comment on how this applies to someone engaging in commercial relationship with a US citizen or corporation? I.e. is it fair to make the assumption in that case that their information in the context of that exchange is protected from espionage? If yes, do they have legal resource for breach in this trust or is the right only enforceable by the US citizen or corporation in this relationship?
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    In a nutshell: might makes right.
- paralelogram 12y ago
  Europeans are by definition not subject to American laws This isn't true. "Richard O'Dwyer, a computing student at Sheffield Hallam University, faces a potential 10-year term in a US jail despite never having been to America or using web servers based in the country." http://www.theguardian.com/law/2012/jan/13/piracy-student-loses-us-extradition http://www.theguardian.com/law/2012/jan/13/piracy-student-lo...
  - krapp 12y ago
    Arguably, this only applies to the degree that the UK allows, but that is a good point.
- venomsnake 12y ago
  Probably in a few years some of this will percolate to some high court as human right issue. There was right of privacy mentioned in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights
- pdkl95 12y ago
  Spying in enemies is, of course, expected behavior. Spying on allies... is also expect, but there's a catch: you're not supposed to get caught. This might mean avoiding some types of spying that are too risky. As long as everybody uses spies "under the table" so nobody notice, it's hard to accuse each other of impropriety. If a spy screws up badly and IS caught, it IS going to cause a scandal. Traditionally, this means the spying country is going to have to make some sort of gesture or reparation to patch over the relationship. In extreme cases this could be real payments of cash or goods (rarely, even letting the spy be tried in the foreign court). Modern realpolitik probably requires only a minor concession in a future trade agreement. This isn't a law or treaty; failure to do something to amend the relationship simply leave the insult/animosity unresolved which is probably bad for future negotiations. So yes, spying will happen on our European allies. We just weren't supposed to get caught at it. Now that we are, it's on us to patch over that relationship, if we care about the future of those relationships.
patronagezero 12y ago
I'm sure the EU governments each have a hand in the cookie jar as well. This isn't about state secrets as much as having an emotional and mental thermometer into the subjects of the elite. The machine must continue evolving and becoming more efficient in their conglomerate of corporations and their employees. Like many countries using microsoft software, I imagine they're all using Surveillance 1.0 SaaS from your very own US Government[0]. [0]: http://usa-the-republic.com/revenue/true_history/Chap8.html http://usa-the-republic.com/revenue/true_history/Chap8.html

I think that is the point of the NSA and has since the beginning.

krapp 12y ago

Presumably, as Europeans are by definition not subject to American laws, they are not relevant to a case involving an American intelligence agency breaking American laws limiting American intelligence agencies' ability to spy on American citizens. Because of course, spying on people outside one's own country is what intelligence agencies are supposed to do.

xnull2guest 12y ago
America as a nation has always been drawn taut between its interests - intelligence, military, economic, political and otherwise - and its ideals which clearly state that "all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights" which includes a right to a liberty which excludes suspicion-less search and seizure and a right to be secure in their persons. Throughout the history of America we've seen the tension shift to one side of this rope or the other. through a series of Supreme Court decisions in the very early 1900's (during the Spanish American war) it was settled at the highest level that American occupied territories do not have a right to self-determination nor to many other constitutional rights. Today this is status quo.
cgio 12y ago
Europeans are not subject to American laws, but they would be if they stole something in the states, or they would expect to be protected by US police when visiting the states. Can someone with knowledge comment on how this applies to someone engaging in commercial relationship with a US citizen or corporation? I.e. is it fair to make the assumption in that case that their information in the context of that exchange is protected from espionage? If yes, do they have legal resource for breach in this trust or is the right only enforceable by the US citizen or corporation in this relationship?
- jacquesm 12y ago
  In a nutshell: might makes right.
paralelogram 12y ago
Europeans are by definition not subject to American laws This isn't true. "Richard O'Dwyer, a computing student at Sheffield Hallam University, faces a potential 10-year term in a US jail despite never having been to America or using web servers based in the country." http://www.theguardian.com/law/2012/jan/13/piracy-student-loses-us-extradition http://www.theguardian.com/law/2012/jan/13/piracy-student-lo...
- krapp 12y ago
  Arguably, this only applies to the degree that the UK allows, but that is a good point.
venomsnake 12y ago
Probably in a few years some of this will percolate to some high court as human right issue. There was right of privacy mentioned in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights
pdkl95 12y ago
Spying in enemies is, of course, expected behavior. Spying on allies... is also expect, but there's a catch: you're not supposed to get caught. This might mean avoiding some types of spying that are too risky. As long as everybody uses spies "under the table" so nobody notice, it's hard to accuse each other of impropriety. If a spy screws up badly and IS caught, it IS going to cause a scandal. Traditionally, this means the spying country is going to have to make some sort of gesture or reparation to patch over the relationship. In extreme cases this could be real payments of cash or goods (rarely, even letting the spy be tried in the foreign court). Modern realpolitik probably requires only a minor concession in a future trade agreement. This isn't a law or treaty; failure to do something to amend the relationship simply leave the insult/animosity unresolved which is probably bad for future negotiations. So yes, spying will happen on our European allies. We just weren't supposed to get caught at it. Now that we are, it's on us to patch over that relationship, if we care about the future of those relationships.

patronagezero 12y ago

I'm sure the EU governments each have a hand in the cookie jar as well. This isn't about state secrets as much as having an emotional and mental thermometer into the subjects of the elite. The machine must continue evolving and becoming more efficient in their conglomerate of corporations and their employees. Like many countries using microsoft software, I imagine they're all using Surveillance 1.0 SaaS from your very own US Government[0]. [0]: http://usa-the-republic.com/revenue/true_history/Chap8.html http://usa-the-republic.com/revenue/true_history/Chap8.html