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> And they rose to the challenge. “I think the kids were just waiting to be let loose and to be treated like adults,” Holman said. This part struck me. It wasn

> And they rose to the challenge. “I think the kids were just waiting to be let loose and to be treated like adults,” Holman said. This part struck me. It wasn't that long ago in human history that these "kids" would have been considered adults. Fourteen, which should correspond roughly to the beginning of American high school, would have been the year they would have started apprenticeship and taking on real adult responsibility. And that's assuming they were even going to a skilled trade; unskilled trades like farmers would be outright working by that point. We see this transition point in cultures that have preserved it as tradition, such as bar/bat mitzvahs, quinceañeras, and débutante and cotillion balls.

coenhyde 12y ago
I agree. In recent times we have been training young adults to behave like kids. That behavior sticks and you are left with a dysfunctional adult.
- Chronic30 12y ago
  We're also left with many extraordinary hard working and intelligent adults.
jarcane 12y ago
In Finland, mandatory primary and secondary schooling ends at 16, after which point you can choose to either go into a trade /apprenticeship school, or an academic school (high-school/university), or not go at all. And all of it is free (though there's rumors they might start charging tuition for university in a couple of years). The schools themselves also go to great lengths to ensure that everyone graduates on the same 'level,' even in the lower schools. The result is one of the most well-educated and trained workforces in the world. It's also an incredibly competitive job market, because almost everyone applying has the equivalent of at least a two-year degree, and if it's an academic profession, probably a Master's. Almost no union will take you as well if you haven't finished a trade school or higher school. There's talk now of them making post-secondary education mandatory as well for two years, because anyone who doesn't go into trade school or high school is more or less fucked on the job market. The kids who don't want to go to school after 16 wind up on unemployment and living with their parents because there's almost zero chance of getting any kind of employment without further education. It's been interesting to see and learn how degree inflation works on the market here. In one sense this is a lot like the states, where in many fields now, anything less than a Bachelor's degree is useless. In another sense though, unlike the states this hasn't resulted in the 'diploma mill' effect, where those Bachelor's degrees have become utterly devalued and useless because they more or less hand them out to anyone willing to keep showing up for four years. And as well, there are more options here for trades instead of going into academics, so it's not like there aren't options if you don't go into university. There are trade school courses in everything: I know a bloke who went to school for two years just to be a waiter. So unlike the states, where that diploma mill inflation can feel limiting because there's only so many academic subjects available, it seems like there's a lot more viable different routes to pursue towards finding a career.
- chii 12y ago
  > a bloke who went to school for two years just to be a waiter. that seems quite excessive - shouldn't on the job training work just as well?!
  - jarcane 12y ago
    There are a few responses to this: 1) contrary to American myth, a good union promises quality workers, and the best way to do that is to ensure their members are highly trained. Everything is union here, but if you want to be a union employee, you must be prepared to meet that standard, starting with a thorough education. 2) American culture has seriously devalued the waiter. As a former cook, I've worked with those who had real training in the old French style, vs. those who merely took a job out of high school because the tips paid better. I'd choose the former every time. A skilled waiter is not just a glorified gofer, but someone who knows the food business inside and out. 3) It largely is on the job training; much of the trade school approach in Finland is based at least partly on apprenticeship. You take both lecture/classroom courses, as well as time spent on the job actually practicing your skills. The difference is, there's someone overseeing the process with an interest in actually making you a better professional, rather than solely on the basis of whether or not they should shitcan you and hire someone else.
    - jimmaswell 12y ago
      >a good union promises quality workers citation?
InclinedPlane 12y ago
Currently there is a lot of concern about "child rearing" but very, very little about raising a child to adulthood. So much so that for most people it tends not to occur until the mid to late 20s these days, and then only sort of by accident/osmosis. Today we decry "child labor" but there is a lot that the traditional apprenticeship model had going for it. For one it gave young adults important job skills and introduced them to the job market, which not only jump starts one's career and financial self-sufficiency but also inculcates responsibility, belonging, and self-esteem (because teens see that they are capable of doing valuable work, capable of learning in a way that produces tangible results, etc.) But there's a subtle aspect to the apprenticeship system which also helps teens transition to adulthood, and that's the interaction of adults and "children" on a peer level. At the moment you have an almost pathological system, anyone that a teenager interacts with who is over 18 is basically in a different world. And most of the time those people are authority figures. For the most part teens look to their peers for cues on how to behave, with predictable results. With an apprenticeship model you don't have that same arbitrary age-based segregation; apprentices, workers, and "masters" all work together, spend time together, and so on. They often become friendly, and often the younger apprentices would pick up cues on how to behave from those who are older and more mature, because in that context they are their peers. This is hugely important because it jump-starts the process of gaining responsibility and maturity for teens as they transition to adulthood, and provides an extended network of people beyond just one's immediate family who can be consulted for advice on various questions that tend to present themselves when one is growing up. When I was a teen I was considerably more mature than the average of folks around me and for the longest time I didn't realize exactly why. I'm sure some of that is just my own personality, but recently I figured out that part of it had to do with the fact that I ended up spending a lot more time interacting with and working with adults than is normal for most teens and children. To me, it didn't feel weird to be hanging out with adults or working alongside adults as a peer when I was 10 or 14 or what-have-you, and that made the transition to adulthood fairly non-eventful. Sure, I struggled with plenty of the normal problems that everyone faces in their 20s (what to do with your life, how to build a career, etc.). But I didn't struggle with the same issues a lot of newly minted 18 year olds struggle with for years, such as how to be a responsible person, how to do work or learn of your own volition instead of being forced into it, and so on. Unfortunately, that sort of thing is if anything almost actively discouraged today due to an excessive fear of child predators. And while we've perhaps incrementally affected the prevalence of sexual abuse of minors, if we even have, we've definitely stunted the development and maturation of millions upon millions of people over several generations, which unimaginably enormous negative consequences. I don't know what the answer is to these problems but I do know that the current system is broken to an almost pathological extent, it should be one of our highest priorities to fix it.

coenhyde 12y ago

I agree. In recent times we have been training young adults to behave like kids. That behavior sticks and you are left with a dysfunctional adult.

Chronic30 12y ago
We're also left with many extraordinary hard working and intelligent adults.

jarcane 12y ago

In Finland, mandatory primary and secondary schooling ends at 16, after which point you can choose to either go into a trade /apprenticeship school, or an academic school (high-school/university), or not go at all. And all of it is free (though there's rumors they might start charging tuition for university in a couple of years). The schools themselves also go to great lengths to ensure that everyone graduates on the same 'level,' even in the lower schools. The result is one of the most well-educated and trained workforces in the world. It's also an incredibly competitive job market, because almost everyone applying has the equivalent of at least a two-year degree, and if it's an academic profession, probably a Master's. Almost no union will take you as well if you haven't finished a trade school or higher school. There's talk now of them making post-secondary education mandatory as well for two years, because anyone who doesn't go into trade school or high school is more or less fucked on the job market. The kids who don't want to go to school after 16 wind up on unemployment and living with their parents because there's almost zero chance of getting any kind of employment without further education. It's been interesting to see and learn how degree inflation works on the market here. In one sense this is a lot like the states, where in many fields now, anything less than a Bachelor's degree is useless. In another sense though, unlike the states this hasn't resulted in the 'diploma mill' effect, where those Bachelor's degrees have become utterly devalued and useless because they more or less hand them out to anyone willing to keep showing up for four years. And as well, there are more options here for trades instead of going into academics, so it's not like there aren't options if you don't go into university. There are trade school courses in everything: I know a bloke who went to school for two years just to be a waiter. So unlike the states, where that diploma mill inflation can feel limiting because there's only so many academic subjects available, it seems like there's a lot more viable different routes to pursue towards finding a career.

chii 12y ago
> a bloke who went to school for two years just to be a waiter. that seems quite excessive - shouldn't on the job training work just as well?!
- jarcane 12y ago
  There are a few responses to this: 1) contrary to American myth, a good union promises quality workers, and the best way to do that is to ensure their members are highly trained. Everything is union here, but if you want to be a union employee, you must be prepared to meet that standard, starting with a thorough education. 2) American culture has seriously devalued the waiter. As a former cook, I've worked with those who had real training in the old French style, vs. those who merely took a job out of high school because the tips paid better. I'd choose the former every time. A skilled waiter is not just a glorified gofer, but someone who knows the food business inside and out. 3) It largely is on the job training; much of the trade school approach in Finland is based at least partly on apprenticeship. You take both lecture/classroom courses, as well as time spent on the job actually practicing your skills. The difference is, there's someone overseeing the process with an interest in actually making you a better professional, rather than solely on the basis of whether or not they should shitcan you and hire someone else.
  - jimmaswell 12y ago
    >a good union promises quality workers citation?

InclinedPlane 12y ago

Currently there is a lot of concern about "child rearing" but very, very little about raising a child to adulthood. So much so that for most people it tends not to occur until the mid to late 20s these days, and then only sort of by accident/osmosis. Today we decry "child labor" but there is a lot that the traditional apprenticeship model had going for it. For one it gave young adults important job skills and introduced them to the job market, which not only jump starts one's career and financial self-sufficiency but also inculcates responsibility, belonging, and self-esteem (because teens see that they are capable of doing valuable work, capable of learning in a way that produces tangible results, etc.) But there's a subtle aspect to the apprenticeship system which also helps teens transition to adulthood, and that's the interaction of adults and "children" on a peer level. At the moment you have an almost pathological system, anyone that a teenager interacts with who is over 18 is basically in a different world. And most of the time those people are authority figures. For the most part teens look to their peers for cues on how to behave, with predictable results. With an apprenticeship model you don't have that same arbitrary age-based segregation; apprentices, workers, and "masters" all work together, spend time together, and so on. They often become friendly, and often the younger apprentices would pick up cues on how to behave from those who are older and more mature, because in that context they are their peers. This is hugely important because it jump-starts the process of gaining responsibility and maturity for teens as they transition to adulthood, and provides an extended network of people beyond just one's immediate family who can be consulted for advice on various questions that tend to present themselves when one is growing up. When I was a teen I was considerably more mature than the average of folks around me and for the longest time I didn't realize exactly why. I'm sure some of that is just my own personality, but recently I figured out that part of it had to do with the fact that I ended up spending a lot more time interacting with and working with adults than is normal for most teens and children. To me, it didn't feel weird to be hanging out with adults or working alongside adults as a peer when I was 10 or 14 or what-have-you, and that made the transition to adulthood fairly non-eventful. Sure, I struggled with plenty of the normal problems that everyone faces in their 20s (what to do with your life, how to build a career, etc.). But I didn't struggle with the same issues a lot of newly minted 18 year olds struggle with for years, such as how to be a responsible person, how to do work or learn of your own volition instead of being forced into it, and so on. Unfortunately, that sort of thing is if anything almost actively discouraged today due to an excessive fear of child predators. And while we've perhaps incrementally affected the prevalence of sexual abuse of minors, if we even have, we've definitely stunted the development and maturation of millions upon millions of people over several generations, which unimaginably enormous negative consequences. I don't know what the answer is to these problems but I do know that the current system is broken to an almost pathological extent, it should be one of our highest priorities to fix it.