5 ms·

Without disagreeing, I also don't think it makes sense to discount potentially massive improvements in user interfaces merely because a portion of the populatio

by gecko 17y ago

Without disagreeing, I also don't think it makes sense to discount potentially massive improvements in user interfaces merely because a portion of the population cannot use them.

joe_the_user 17y ago
No, but his problem actually points to this being a problem for anyone. It becomes a problem when the machine requires all of my dexterity just to accomplish a given task. I dislike all Apple products specifically because they require mouse operations to accomplish things where Linux and MS interfaces tend to have keyboard shortcuts.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
- andreyf 17y ago
  In my experience, OSX has much better thought-out keyboard shortcuts than Windows does. A simple example: you'd like to force-kill the focused application. In OSX, you type command-option-esc (one hand), return, return (other hand). I don't know what it is in Vita, but in XP, it would require quite a bit of mousework.
  - trebor 17y ago
    Since XP, when an application froze the window itself would render in spite of the frozen/omitted contents. So when the titlebar got an ending "(not responding)" tag it is easily closed with one click of the close button, then another of "end now" as confirmation. And there's always alt-f4.
    - deleted 17y ago
      [deleted]
  - alexitosrv 17y ago
    I can think in several counter examples: In mac os x, - how to show the desktop with a keyboard shortcut ? - how to maximize/minimize/restore a window with a keyboard shortcut (on windows you can press Alt+spacebar, and then x/n/r) ? - how to efficiently copy/move files in finder with a keyboard shortcut ? - how is better thought the fact that when you are in finder and then you press enter, you are going to rename a file? because in order to open/execute on a file you must press command+O... And finally, the operation you asked can be performed on windows by pressing ctrl+shift+esc, and if you are in the process tab, spelling the first letters of the procname, then press delete and confirm.
    - absconditus 17y ago
      "In mac os x, - how to show the desktop with a keyboard shortcut ?" F11 "- how to maximize/minimize/restore a window with a keyboard shortcut (on windows you can press Alt+spacebar, and then x/n/r) ?" There is no such thing as maximize in OS X. Minimize is command + m. I'm not sure how to restore with the keyboard. "- how to efficiently copy/move files in finder with a keyboard shortcut ?" Command + c is copy and command + v is paste. Command + x is cut, but there are rules governing when one can cut that I don't understand.
      - derefr 17y ago
        You can restore (in Snow Leopard, at least) by activating Expose, using the arrow keys to select the minimized window, and pressing Enter. It's not as simple if you've hidden the application's window set with Command+H, however (I still don't understand the purpose of that shortcut myself.)
        andrewtj 17y ago
        It's not that much more complicated to show a hidden app - Ctl+F3 to activate the Dock, use the arrow keys to select the App and hit return.
    - roundsquare 17y ago
      how is better thought the fact that when you are in finder and then you press enter, you are going to rename a file? because in order to open/execute on a file you must press command+O... You should be careful of "windows bias" (or whatever, I just made up the term). Just because we do something one way in windows, does not mean its better, just what we are accustomed to.
  - joe_the_user 17y ago
    The folks who say the Macintosh has better short-cuts don't get the fact that in Windows you can do anything with the keyboard, on the Macintosh, there are many things which you cannot do with the keyboard.
    - andrewtj 17y ago
      Respectfully, it seems like every time I see this comment it's from a Windows power user who's not that familiar with OS X - can you please provide an example?
      - joe_the_user 17y ago
        Application switching - what's the equivalent of alt-tab? Including resizing Restoring a minimizing application. -- Selecting an arbitrary menu item Arrowing through a menu is key for me. I'm writing from memory but last I recall working on a mac, the menus were strictly mouse only. -- What's the equivalent of the start button, giving a list of available I can select with the keyboard? I remember not being able to navigate the launch bar with the keyboard, only the mouse. And at that time, I Googled for a while for help on this.
        andrewtj 17y ago
        Off the top of my head: alt-tab == ⌘-tab Restore == Ctl-F3, arrow key to window in Dock, return Arbitrary menu item, depends: Application Menu (left-handside text menus) == Ctl-F2, type enough unique letters to identify the menu (or use arrow keys), return, type enough unique letters to identify the item... repeat till you get to the item you want. If this annoys you, you can implement your own keyboard shortcuts in any native application. Status Menu (right-handside icon menus) == Ctl-F8, arrows, return. Equivalent of the start button? Not quite sure what you mean - activate Spotlight ⌘-[Space], type app name perhaps? I assume you mean Dock when you say launch which is activated by Ctl-F3. The only one I don't know how to do is fine-grain resizing of a window. If you use OS X though, you'll realise the UI paradigm isn't focused on fine-grained window control though.
  - jcl 17y ago
    In XP, control-shift-escape (almost the same key combo as OSX) brings up the task manager, where you can kill whatever you want using the keyboard. By default, it comes up with the current application selected, so you can press tab then space to kill it. As this can all be done with one hand, does XP therefore have better thought-out keyboard shortcuts than OSX? ;)
  - deyan 17y ago
    Did you (all of you not just andreyf) seriously manage to degrade the discussion on the GUI into a OSX vs. Windows debate? Or perhaps my expectations are just way too high..
    - andreyf 17y ago
      Sorry :(
    - andrewtj 17y ago
      Straw, camel back... sorry Keep expectations high and the community will self-correct.
  - elblanco 17y ago
    in XP, I dunno if there is a quick way. But Ctrl+shift+ESC brings up Task Manager. Arrow down to the task you want to kill. Hit the other crazy menu key that MS added to keyboards (the one between the right Alt and Ctrl whatever it's called) and choose how you want to kill the task, hit enter. Other than the arrowing down bit, it's about the same.
Semiapies 17y ago
I'd be against that; on the other hand, I don't buy that trying to make an improvement for more people than just the fully-dexterous and ten-fingered means some massive sacrifice. For that matter, I'm dubious that an interface that needs ten fingers to handle shifting between applications constitutes any massive improvement for anyone.
- DanielStraight 17y ago
  Right. I use ten fingers to type. Sometimes I don't even use all ten. If I feel like being lazy, I'll type with one hand. Sometimes I scroll my trackball with a single finger while taking a drink of coffee. I don't want all ten of my fingers on an interface at all times.

by gecko 17y ago

Without disagreeing, I also don't think it makes sense to discount potentially massive improvements in user interfaces merely because a portion of the population cannot use them.

joe_the_user 17y ago

No, but his problem actually points to this being a problem for anyone. It becomes a problem when the machine requires all of my dexterity just to accomplish a given task. I dislike all Apple products specifically because they require mouse operations to accomplish things where Linux and MS interfaces tend to have keyboard shortcuts.

deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
andreyf 17y ago
In my experience, OSX has much better thought-out keyboard shortcuts than Windows does. A simple example: you'd like to force-kill the focused application. In OSX, you type command-option-esc (one hand), return, return (other hand). I don't know what it is in Vita, but in XP, it would require quite a bit of mousework.
- trebor 17y ago
  Since XP, when an application froze the window itself would render in spite of the frozen/omitted contents. So when the titlebar got an ending "(not responding)" tag it is easily closed with one click of the close button, then another of "end now" as confirmation. And there's always alt-f4.
  - deleted 17y ago
    [deleted]
- alexitosrv 17y ago
  I can think in several counter examples: In mac os x, - how to show the desktop with a keyboard shortcut ? - how to maximize/minimize/restore a window with a keyboard shortcut (on windows you can press Alt+spacebar, and then x/n/r) ? - how to efficiently copy/move files in finder with a keyboard shortcut ? - how is better thought the fact that when you are in finder and then you press enter, you are going to rename a file? because in order to open/execute on a file you must press command+O... And finally, the operation you asked can be performed on windows by pressing ctrl+shift+esc, and if you are in the process tab, spelling the first letters of the procname, then press delete and confirm.
  - absconditus 17y ago
    "In mac os x, - how to show the desktop with a keyboard shortcut ?" F11 "- how to maximize/minimize/restore a window with a keyboard shortcut (on windows you can press Alt+spacebar, and then x/n/r) ?" There is no such thing as maximize in OS X. Minimize is command + m. I'm not sure how to restore with the keyboard. "- how to efficiently copy/move files in finder with a keyboard shortcut ?" Command + c is copy and command + v is paste. Command + x is cut, but there are rules governing when one can cut that I don't understand.
    - derefr 17y ago
      You can restore (in Snow Leopard, at least) by activating Expose, using the arrow keys to select the minimized window, and pressing Enter. It's not as simple if you've hidden the application's window set with Command+H, however (I still don't understand the purpose of that shortcut myself.)
      - andrewtj 17y ago
        It's not that much more complicated to show a hidden app - Ctl+F3 to activate the Dock, use the arrow keys to select the App and hit return.
  - roundsquare 17y ago
    how is better thought the fact that when you are in finder and then you press enter, you are going to rename a file? because in order to open/execute on a file you must press command+O... You should be careful of "windows bias" (or whatever, I just made up the term). Just because we do something one way in windows, does not mean its better, just what we are accustomed to.
- joe_the_user 17y ago
  The folks who say the Macintosh has better short-cuts don't get the fact that in Windows you can do anything with the keyboard, on the Macintosh, there are many things which you cannot do with the keyboard.
  - andrewtj 17y ago
    Respectfully, it seems like every time I see this comment it's from a Windows power user who's not that familiar with OS X - can you please provide an example?
    - joe_the_user 17y ago
      Application switching - what's the equivalent of alt-tab? Including resizing Restoring a minimizing application. -- Selecting an arbitrary menu item Arrowing through a menu is key for me. I'm writing from memory but last I recall working on a mac, the menus were strictly mouse only. -- What's the equivalent of the start button, giving a list of available I can select with the keyboard? I remember not being able to navigate the launch bar with the keyboard, only the mouse. And at that time, I Googled for a while for help on this.
      - andrewtj 17y ago
        Off the top of my head: alt-tab == ⌘-tab Restore == Ctl-F3, arrow key to window in Dock, return Arbitrary menu item, depends: Application Menu (left-handside text menus) == Ctl-F2, type enough unique letters to identify the menu (or use arrow keys), return, type enough unique letters to identify the item... repeat till you get to the item you want. If this annoys you, you can implement your own keyboard shortcuts in any native application. Status Menu (right-handside icon menus) == Ctl-F8, arrows, return. Equivalent of the start button? Not quite sure what you mean - activate Spotlight ⌘-[Space], type app name perhaps? I assume you mean Dock when you say launch which is activated by Ctl-F3. The only one I don't know how to do is fine-grain resizing of a window. If you use OS X though, you'll realise the UI paradigm isn't focused on fine-grained window control though.
- jcl 17y ago
  In XP, control-shift-escape (almost the same key combo as OSX) brings up the task manager, where you can kill whatever you want using the keyboard. By default, it comes up with the current application selected, so you can press tab then space to kill it. As this can all be done with one hand, does XP therefore have better thought-out keyboard shortcuts than OSX? ;)
- deyan 17y ago
  Did you (all of you not just andreyf) seriously manage to degrade the discussion on the GUI into a OSX vs. Windows debate? Or perhaps my expectations are just way too high..
  - andreyf 17y ago
    Sorry :(
  - andrewtj 17y ago
    Straw, camel back... sorry Keep expectations high and the community will self-correct.
- elblanco 17y ago
  in XP, I dunno if there is a quick way. But Ctrl+shift+ESC brings up Task Manager. Arrow down to the task you want to kill. Hit the other crazy menu key that MS added to keyboards (the one between the right Alt and Ctrl whatever it's called) and choose how you want to kill the task, hit enter. Other than the arrowing down bit, it's about the same.

Semiapies 17y ago

I'd be against that; on the other hand, I don't buy that trying to make an improvement for more people than just the fully-dexterous and ten-fingered means some massive sacrifice. For that matter, I'm dubious that an interface that needs ten fingers to handle shifting between applications constitutes any massive improvement for anyone.

DanielStraight 17y ago
Right. I use ten fingers to type. Sometimes I don't even use all ten. If I feel like being lazy, I'll type with one hand. Sometimes I scroll my trackball with a single finger while taking a drink of coffee. I don't want all ten of my fingers on an interface at all times.