7 ms·

The thing is, most programming really isn't brain surgery in most cases. Unfortunately most professional programmers are arrogant douches that really do believe

by zxcvcxz 12y ago

The thing is, most programming really isn't brain surgery in most cases. Unfortunately most professional programmers are arrogant douches that really do believe they're on the same level as a doctor. Maybe some are, especially if they're coding medical equipment, but the majority of programmers are just regular people with average IQs. Programming is only "hard" because traditional western schooling doesn't introduce you to any programming concepts.

nonymous-- 12y ago
http://venturebeat.com/2014/05/24/valley-heavyweight-vinod-khosla-says-replacing-doctors-with-data-crunchers-is-good-medicine/ http://venturebeat.com/2014/05/24/valley-heavyweight-vinod-k... http://www.businessinsider.com/ibms-watson-may-soon-be-the-best-doctor-in-the-world-2014-4 http://www.businessinsider.com/ibms-watson-may-soon-be-the-b...
- zxcvcxz 12y ago
  So like 0.1% of programming is brain surgery. But do you go to the brain surgeon when you need a band-aide? How often do you visit the brain surgeon? My point is most programmers are arrogant douches who think that their todo app is the equivalent of brain surgery. And the people coding robots to do surgery couldn't do it without actual surgeons telling them how to do it. And I can almost guarantee you that those programmers are getting paid hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars and are not the ones who are getting screwed by their employers.
  - nonymous-- 12y ago
    You keep touting brain surgery as if it's the yard stick by which all other endeavors (including pure mathematics and astrophysics) should be measured for difficulty and cognitive ability required--it isn't. The brain may be immensely complex, but neuroanatomy at the macroscopic scale isn't and has fewer inter-connected components than a large software project. The only reason you think brain surgery is so complicated is, again, because doctors have excellent PR.
    - zxcvcxz 12y ago
      "well it's not brain surgery" is an American expression. And you're kind of proving my point about the arrogance of programmers. I'm sure you'll fix your moms computer before you let just anybody do brain surgery on her. A large project may have many interconnected components, but it's not the only profession that involves such things and the way the human brain works means that given enough time you'll probably be able to understand whatever systems you would like to. I mean, what it basically comes down to is understanding a few programming languages and logic. Maybe chemistry would be a better comparison? I wouldn't say IQ matters as much as dedication. Bill Joy wasn't at the forefront of computer science at the dawn of the computer age because he was a super genius, he had just logged more than 10,000 hours of programming by that time. Unfortunately for us programmers we're soon going to find our salaries going down simply because there are inevitably going to be more and more tech savvy people and programmers. It's not a new thing anymore. ANYONE can do it. Literally. Only about 1% of programming being done right now is highly advanced and complicated. The good programmers will continue to create easy to understand abstracts for the not so good programmers until we can ask watson to code what we need on the spot.
      - josephagoss 12y ago
        I'm not sure anyone can do it, sure on a global scale it might seem that way, but the same goes for any other profession. If you hang around in a non tech city you'll see that there are actually a very small amount of competent programmers. And with most software projects, much like real world engineering, it's less about the fundamentals (language, base logic, etc...) and more about managing and working with highly complex systems.
briHass 12y ago
Programming and brain surgery have very little overlap. I would actually argue that brain surgery is far more about having a confident, steady hand, and less about raw smarts. Undoubtebly, brain surgeons typically have above average IQs, but so do programmers. Numerous studies have placed the typical IQ of software developers to be in the >120 range. That's between 1 and 2 σ , or somewhere around higher than 90% of the population. http://www.randalolson.com/2014/06/25/average-iq-of-students-by-college-major-and-gender-ratio/ http://www.randalolson.com/2014/06/25/average-iq-of-students...
gaius 12y ago
Is programming on a level with brain surgery, probably not, but it's probably not far off being a GP, every year a new batch of kids with measles (or whatever), same as last year's batch, yadda yadda.
- shamney 12y ago
  most of the work GPs do is far easier than bog standard web or mobile development
fsloth 12y ago
Good point. The act or programming is comparable to writing or simple arithmetic. However, where things get complex is when we reach the systems-design level. Doctors need ten years of studying to be qualified. I would claim that you need at least that much of programming to be really qualified for a position where the evolution of an expensive system depends on the intuitive design decisions you perform on the spot. The cost of unskilled medical practice are localized and can result in large costs and an individual tragedy. The cost of unskilled systems design practice can be spread temporally over several years, result in large organizational costs in maintenance and small tragedies for the poor bastards who have to maintain the system. While I do not suggest comparing the economic risks are a good key metric in computing a professionals pay check I think it should be a part of the equation. It's really hard for me to figure out who has more financial risks tied to their profession, the systems designer or the doctor. If we continue the risks analysis one could say a regular lorry driver can easily cause as much in damages with careless driving. However, in the case of the lorry driver learning to do a proper job does not take ten years. Edit: Auch, the downvotes, they hurt. I was trivializing a bit with the comparison to arithmetic. What I should have said is 'a fundamental skill applicable to many domains just like arithmetic or writing.
- zxcvcxz 12y ago
  I agree for the most part, but I don't believe that the people who design critical software are being screwed by their employer. They also make up a fairly small segment of what's considered "programmers" imo. I'd say the vast majority of programming is web/mobile applications which I would argue takes about six months to learn and maybe two years to get pretty good at it.
  - fsloth 12y ago
    Considering how many software projects have ended as major screw ups I would claim that there are instances where the employer and/or the programmer are clueless about how much skilled design efforts they would really need. So I would not worry about systems designers being screwed for low pay. Rather I find those situations problematic where employer does not realize they would need systems design nor know what it would look like in the first place. Having some sort of "guild verified" systems designer licence might alleviate those situations by making the client realize the thingamajic they are ordering might need systems design and would actually require it in the contract. Would it help really? I don't know but it would bring clarity to the profession-client interface by making the client more aware of the skills needed to implement the contract successfully.
shamney 12y ago
not everything can be taught to all people. a person of average intellectual ability will always struggle with cognitively demanding tasks like mathematics and programming.

by zxcvcxz 12y ago

nonymous-- 12y ago

http://venturebeat.com/2014/05/24/valley-heavyweight-vinod-khosla-says-replacing-doctors-with-data-crunchers-is-good-medicine/ http://venturebeat.com/2014/05/24/valley-heavyweight-vinod-k... http://www.businessinsider.com/ibms-watson-may-soon-be-the-best-doctor-in-the-world-2014-4 http://www.businessinsider.com/ibms-watson-may-soon-be-the-b...

zxcvcxz 12y ago
So like 0.1% of programming is brain surgery. But do you go to the brain surgeon when you need a band-aide? How often do you visit the brain surgeon? My point is most programmers are arrogant douches who think that their todo app is the equivalent of brain surgery. And the people coding robots to do surgery couldn't do it without actual surgeons telling them how to do it. And I can almost guarantee you that those programmers are getting paid hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars and are not the ones who are getting screwed by their employers.
- nonymous-- 12y ago
  You keep touting brain surgery as if it's the yard stick by which all other endeavors (including pure mathematics and astrophysics) should be measured for difficulty and cognitive ability required--it isn't. The brain may be immensely complex, but neuroanatomy at the macroscopic scale isn't and has fewer inter-connected components than a large software project. The only reason you think brain surgery is so complicated is, again, because doctors have excellent PR.
  - zxcvcxz 12y ago
    "well it's not brain surgery" is an American expression. And you're kind of proving my point about the arrogance of programmers. I'm sure you'll fix your moms computer before you let just anybody do brain surgery on her. A large project may have many interconnected components, but it's not the only profession that involves such things and the way the human brain works means that given enough time you'll probably be able to understand whatever systems you would like to. I mean, what it basically comes down to is understanding a few programming languages and logic. Maybe chemistry would be a better comparison? I wouldn't say IQ matters as much as dedication. Bill Joy wasn't at the forefront of computer science at the dawn of the computer age because he was a super genius, he had just logged more than 10,000 hours of programming by that time. Unfortunately for us programmers we're soon going to find our salaries going down simply because there are inevitably going to be more and more tech savvy people and programmers. It's not a new thing anymore. ANYONE can do it. Literally. Only about 1% of programming being done right now is highly advanced and complicated. The good programmers will continue to create easy to understand abstracts for the not so good programmers until we can ask watson to code what we need on the spot.
    - josephagoss 12y ago
      I'm not sure anyone can do it, sure on a global scale it might seem that way, but the same goes for any other profession. If you hang around in a non tech city you'll see that there are actually a very small amount of competent programmers. And with most software projects, much like real world engineering, it's less about the fundamentals (language, base logic, etc...) and more about managing and working with highly complex systems.

briHass 12y ago

Programming and brain surgery have very little overlap. I would actually argue that brain surgery is far more about having a confident, steady hand, and less about raw smarts. Undoubtebly, brain surgeons typically have above average IQs, but so do programmers. Numerous studies have placed the typical IQ of software developers to be in the >120 range. That's between 1 and 2 σ , or somewhere around higher than 90% of the population. http://www.randalolson.com/2014/06/25/average-iq-of-students-by-college-major-and-gender-ratio/ http://www.randalolson.com/2014/06/25/average-iq-of-students...

gaius 12y ago

Is programming on a level with brain surgery, probably not, but it's probably not far off being a GP, every year a new batch of kids with measles (or whatever), same as last year's batch, yadda yadda.

shamney 12y ago
most of the work GPs do is far easier than bog standard web or mobile development

fsloth 12y ago

Good point. The act or programming is comparable to writing or simple arithmetic. However, where things get complex is when we reach the systems-design level. Doctors need ten years of studying to be qualified. I would claim that you need at least that much of programming to be really qualified for a position where the evolution of an expensive system depends on the intuitive design decisions you perform on the spot. The cost of unskilled medical practice are localized and can result in large costs and an individual tragedy. The cost of unskilled systems design practice can be spread temporally over several years, result in large organizational costs in maintenance and small tragedies for the poor bastards who have to maintain the system. While I do not suggest comparing the economic risks are a good key metric in computing a professionals pay check I think it should be a part of the equation. It's really hard for me to figure out who has more financial risks tied to their profession, the systems designer or the doctor. If we continue the risks analysis one could say a regular lorry driver can easily cause as much in damages with careless driving. However, in the case of the lorry driver learning to do a proper job does not take ten years. Edit: Auch, the downvotes, they hurt. I was trivializing a bit with the comparison to arithmetic. What I should have said is 'a fundamental skill applicable to many domains just like arithmetic or writing.

zxcvcxz 12y ago
I agree for the most part, but I don't believe that the people who design critical software are being screwed by their employer. They also make up a fairly small segment of what's considered "programmers" imo. I'd say the vast majority of programming is web/mobile applications which I would argue takes about six months to learn and maybe two years to get pretty good at it.
- fsloth 12y ago
  Considering how many software projects have ended as major screw ups I would claim that there are instances where the employer and/or the programmer are clueless about how much skilled design efforts they would really need. So I would not worry about systems designers being screwed for low pay. Rather I find those situations problematic where employer does not realize they would need systems design nor know what it would look like in the first place. Having some sort of "guild verified" systems designer licence might alleviate those situations by making the client realize the thingamajic they are ordering might need systems design and would actually require it in the contract. Would it help really? I don't know but it would bring clarity to the profession-client interface by making the client more aware of the skills needed to implement the contract successfully.

shamney 12y ago

not everything can be taught to all people. a person of average intellectual ability will always struggle with cognitively demanding tasks like mathematics and programming.