7 ms·

The prestige hit and vulnerability to "letting down the troops" criticisms will ensure this doesn't happen.

logn 12y ago
It will never happen because the prosecution would logically include Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, and some legislators. I don't see a Republican administration prosecuting them because of loyalty, and I don't see a Democratic one doing that because I suspect Pelosi and Obama could be prosecuted as well (if new evidence comes to light). And without going after the very highest level offenders, you're throwing the CIA under the bus, and that won't end well.
- wavefunction 12y ago
  Obama probably would not be part of the group but Pelosi and Dianne Feinstein would. Jay Rockefeller as well. These three very senior leaders in the Democratic party have sat on the Foreign Intelligence Committee during this period of torture and while supposedly not completely in-the-loop approved of what they did know of.
  - trhway 12y ago
    >Obama probably would not be part of the group Obama is the president of the country blatantly, in the open, violating Geneva Conventions - Gitmo, drone strikes. Not that anybody, who matters, cares though.
    - pmoriarty 12y ago
      But didn't you hear? He "wants" to close Gitmo. He only has the best of intentions, but darn it, those obstructionist Republicans always stand in the way.
    - wavefunction 12y ago
      I care, but we're talking about holding people responsible specifically for the use of torture during the Bush Administration.
    - tripzilch 12y ago
      Yeah but Obama was just following orders, y'know.
- tehwalrus 12y ago
  It speaks volumes that it is up to the executive whether to prosecute former executives.
  - pfortuny 12y ago
    Yes, talking about Montesquieu and all that division of powers... What a joke.
rhino369 12y ago
The real reason is that they were carrying out the official policy of the US government. Just calling it CIA torture is minimizing how far up this went. Bush ordered it. DOD knew. DOJ not only knew, it crafted the governments tortured definition of torture. Congress knew. This isn't some off the books CIA wet team opp. It was planned and signed off at the highest levels. John Yoo, who wrote the torture memos, is a professor at Berkeley. That's how mainstream this was. Furthermore, the people signed off on it. Not just through our Congressional representatives. Not just because we re-elected the politicians who did it. The public supported it directly. We've known for a long what was going on. Prosecuting only the people who carried out the orders is cowardly. You'd have to try Bush, Cheney, Gonzales, a bunch of high ranking DOD and DOJ officials, a bunch of Generals and other officers, Congressional leadership from that era, and former CIA directors too. "Just following orders" didn't work at Nuremberg because we were trying the people who gave the orders too.
- snori74 12y ago
  The fact that "24" with Jack Bauer routinely using torture ran for eight years with high ratings surely reflected the US public's tacit approval.
  - caf 12y ago
    I don't think you can sensibly infer anything of the sort from television ratings. As I recall, The Sopranos, Breaking Bad and Dexter all rated pretty well too.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - rakoo 12y ago
      Jack Bauer is supposed to be the good guy; good guys aren't supposed to use torture, yet he does. I don't know about other shows, did "good guys" use torture ? Were they able to walk away without any problems ?
josephlord 12y ago
Do you really think that? Even when something really bad happens? 9-11 type incident or worse. Only following orders is no justification for war crimes including torture. The world needs to see that America believes that and that it doesn't just apply to Nazi's. America is an example to the world, please be a good one.
- orbifold 12y ago
  America hasn't been an example in their actual behavior to the world basically ever, that is just what propaganda and indoctrination wants you to believe. Not that most other nations did behave particularly well during their history either. The actual conclusion that has been more widespread during history than it is today, is that a world revolution by the oppressed and exploited would be necessary to disrupt the current power structure and bring about meaningful global political change.
orbifold 12y ago
The FAS (reputable german newspaper) on the front page: "Berlin wants to see torturers in court", according to the article politicians from all german parties think a criminal prosecution is necessary. Most likely there won't be any real consequences in the transatlantic relationship, if there isn't, as we are perfectly fine dealing with countries like Russia and China in a semi-friendly manner most of the time. The US has already lost a lost of prestige in the matter over the years, given that the black sites and "enhanced interrogation techniques" were more or less public knowledge. Ideally the whole Bush administration would be put on trial for war crimes and violations of the torture conventions, but that is a pipe dream of course.

logn 12y ago

It will never happen because the prosecution would logically include Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, and some legislators. I don't see a Republican administration prosecuting them because of loyalty, and I don't see a Democratic one doing that because I suspect Pelosi and Obama could be prosecuted as well (if new evidence comes to light). And without going after the very highest level offenders, you're throwing the CIA under the bus, and that won't end well.

wavefunction 12y ago
Obama probably would not be part of the group but Pelosi and Dianne Feinstein would. Jay Rockefeller as well. These three very senior leaders in the Democratic party have sat on the Foreign Intelligence Committee during this period of torture and while supposedly not completely in-the-loop approved of what they did know of.
- trhway 12y ago
  >Obama probably would not be part of the group Obama is the president of the country blatantly, in the open, violating Geneva Conventions - Gitmo, drone strikes. Not that anybody, who matters, cares though.
  - pmoriarty 12y ago
    But didn't you hear? He "wants" to close Gitmo. He only has the best of intentions, but darn it, those obstructionist Republicans always stand in the way.
  - wavefunction 12y ago
    I care, but we're talking about holding people responsible specifically for the use of torture during the Bush Administration.
  - tripzilch 12y ago
    Yeah but Obama was just following orders, y'know.
tehwalrus 12y ago
It speaks volumes that it is up to the executive whether to prosecute former executives.
- pfortuny 12y ago
  Yes, talking about Montesquieu and all that division of powers... What a joke.

rhino369 12y ago

The real reason is that they were carrying out the official policy of the US government. Just calling it CIA torture is minimizing how far up this went. Bush ordered it. DOD knew. DOJ not only knew, it crafted the governments tortured definition of torture. Congress knew. This isn't some off the books CIA wet team opp. It was planned and signed off at the highest levels. John Yoo, who wrote the torture memos, is a professor at Berkeley. That's how mainstream this was. Furthermore, the people signed off on it. Not just through our Congressional representatives. Not just because we re-elected the politicians who did it. The public supported it directly. We've known for a long what was going on. Prosecuting only the people who carried out the orders is cowardly. You'd have to try Bush, Cheney, Gonzales, a bunch of high ranking DOD and DOJ officials, a bunch of Generals and other officers, Congressional leadership from that era, and former CIA directors too. "Just following orders" didn't work at Nuremberg because we were trying the people who gave the orders too.

snori74 12y ago
The fact that "24" with Jack Bauer routinely using torture ran for eight years with high ratings surely reflected the US public's tacit approval.
- caf 12y ago
  I don't think you can sensibly infer anything of the sort from television ratings. As I recall, The Sopranos, Breaking Bad and Dexter all rated pretty well too.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - rakoo 12y ago
    Jack Bauer is supposed to be the good guy; good guys aren't supposed to use torture, yet he does. I don't know about other shows, did "good guys" use torture ? Were they able to walk away without any problems ?

josephlord 12y ago

Do you really think that? Even when something really bad happens? 9-11 type incident or worse. Only following orders is no justification for war crimes including torture. The world needs to see that America believes that and that it doesn't just apply to Nazi's. America is an example to the world, please be a good one.

orbifold 12y ago
America hasn't been an example in their actual behavior to the world basically ever, that is just what propaganda and indoctrination wants you to believe. Not that most other nations did behave particularly well during their history either. The actual conclusion that has been more widespread during history than it is today, is that a world revolution by the oppressed and exploited would be necessary to disrupt the current power structure and bring about meaningful global political change.

orbifold 12y ago

The FAS (reputable german newspaper) on the front page: "Berlin wants to see torturers in court", according to the article politicians from all german parties think a criminal prosecution is necessary. Most likely there won't be any real consequences in the transatlantic relationship, if there isn't, as we are perfectly fine dealing with countries like Russia and China in a semi-friendly manner most of the time. The US has already lost a lost of prestige in the matter over the years, given that the black sites and "enhanced interrogation techniques" were more or less public knowledge. Ideally the whole Bush administration would be put on trial for war crimes and violations of the torture conventions, but that is a pipe dream of course.