10 ms·

Look ma, that's me! Free of a soul crushing corporate job, back to doing a "startup", I may not have the cash rolling in, but at least I'm in control of my des

by MCRed 12y ago

Look ma, that's me! Free of a soul crushing corporate job, back to doing a "startup", I may not have the cash rolling in, but at least I'm in control of my destiny. Hey Ma, I'm moving in! I think there are a lot of people out there like me. I have some money coming from side projects, several opportunities to grow that, and several opportunities for new side projects. And quite a long personal runway before I have to "get a job" again. If I can get to personal ramen profitability, that would be great. And if my cofounders and I get a real startup off the ground that can pay us salaries.... well, then I can start showing up in statistics as employed again. But either way, it's not as big a deal to me as it would be to men of my age 20 years ago. And that's a huge shift-- in opportunity towards the individual.

7Figures2Commas 12y ago
> I may not have the cash rolling in, but at least I'm in control of my destiny. Hey Ma, I'm moving in! How are people who don't have a meaningful source of income and who are dependent on their parents for shelter any more in control of their destinies than corporate worker bees?
- gutnor 12y ago
  It is not only that - even when you run your own company you can and often are effectively dependent on your clients/market ( especially that big client making 80% of your revenue ), or the need of your dependents ( you still need to pay your mortgage ) . That's a common complain here on HN of founder "selling out", "losing the original spirit", ... There is a cultural bias for entrepreneur, especially in the US (that's not a bad thing BTW), so struggling directly against the market is seen as more glamorous then through a corporate structure/middleman. In the end, you are as in control of your destiny as much as your wealth permit, no matter how you made that wealth in the first place.
  - MCRed 12y ago
    Here's the difference: When the market says something, I can react to it and improve immediately. For me the market is large and variety, it's not like a few people make up %80 of the income. Working for a corporation, in the most recent case, meant dealing with people who were so incompetent that they did everything I can think of to interfere with us reacting to the market. You know the saying about how people with nothing to do create work for others? Well, when you're a software team and the boss has zero software skills, or understanding, or care, you end up in a lot of pointless meetings. Seriously, I would get interrupted 200 times in a day. (I counted once). So, more risk, less secure money, but avoiding harassment, verbal abuse, manipulation, gas lighting, and 200 interruptions a day is a huge positive trade off. For me at least. Plus I get to see my parents for a few months while I pick out the next place I'm going to live.
    - gutnor 12y ago
      You are just comparing a shit job to a good job, and well the shit job is shittier than the good one. Let's run with your example - what would have been your boss opinion ? Or if your business is growing and you need more people, how will you treat them and how should they feel ? You have a good job in a hot sector, enjoy it, don't try to generalise to everybody or other sectors. Actually, the article is all about people that don't share our luck.
- Kurtz79 12y ago
  Not all corporate jobs are soulless, mind crushing Orwellian nightmares, and nothing prevents you from looking for a fulfilling job if you are unhappy with your present one, especially in our field.
  - MCRed 12y ago
    True, and I did spend some time looking. It's kinda sad, though, how our field seems to have devolved in the past 15 years. Startups today are much more corporate, more likely to be run by biz guys without appreciation for software, etc. Here's a good litmus test: If they have an open floor plan they clearly don't care about developers. If they BRAG about having an open floor plan-- and so many of them do-- they are terrible. Run away.
brandonmenc 12y ago
> it's not as big a deal to me as it would be to men of my age 20 years ago. Less than 6% of workers are working computer or math jobs - of any kind - which suggests that the overwhelming majority of people still have a difficult time when they're listed as "unemployed."
- IndianAstronaut 12y ago
  One common trend I have seen in my social circle is the lack of any employable skills. They may or may not have college degrees, but in general their degrees did not give them concrete job skills or they don't have a degree and no skilled trade. What would ideally happen is people learn a skilled trade if they are stuck on the job market. This training should also happen in high school.
  - XorNot 12y ago
    Except the education system is bad at picking winners. What's in demand when you're in highschool is not what's in demand by the time you're entering the workforce.
    - rjsw 12y ago
      I remember finding that "Computer Programmer" wasn't listed as a possible job when we got careers advice as early teens.
      - arethuza 12y ago
        My 15 year old son got recommended the following options by a career guidance system his school uses: - Lawyer - Town planner - Royal Marine Officer I'd love to know the "logic" that led from his interests/skills to that selection! [NB Only one of these got the reaction "don't do that" from his mother and I].
    - shoover 12y ago
      How do they pick? Maybe they need help picking better. Seems like there's a lot of people around here interested in trends and intelligence that could help with that.
marcell 12y ago
It is great that you are able to do this, but not that your situation is not the one described in the article. The article discusses men who only qualify for low/no skill jobs paying $10-15/hr. That is markedly different from a tech startup cofounder who could get a software engineering job paying $100k+ with benefits.
- rtpg 12y ago
  yeah, a big problem with the whole "Don't need BigCo's job cuz I'm running a SV startup!" narrative is that it's really only accessible for people who already belonged to pretty privileged classes (exceptions exist, obviously.) A portion of the population does not get opportunities to develop these skills and were once allowed low-skilled jobs that paid "decently" but have now found themselves squeezed due to inflation and companies hoarding cash instead of spending it.
  - shutupalready 12y ago
    > companies hoarding cash instead of spending it I've heard this sentiment many times but I've wondered if there's an economic fallacy there. Would the economy be better off if lots of companies stopped hoarding cash and hired lots of new employees? Or would there be side-effects like inflation, or some effect of pulling out cash from whatever it was invested in, etc.? Serious question.
    - barry-cotter 12y ago
      > I've heard this sentiment many times but I've wondered if there's an economic fallacy there. There is, it's a confusion between money and capacity. That money is an option, the possibility of getting people to do things for you. Unused money is paper. > Would the economy be better off if lots of companies stopped hoarding cash and hired lots of new employees? The economy is an abstraction. It can't be better off. But if the companies that have the money had productive ways to spend it they would be doing so. The fact that there aren't that many productive ways to use the money is why the interest rate is so low. The interest rate is the cost of renting money.
tluyben2 12y ago
I have never had 'a job' and had startups (and later mature companies) since I was 15 (I am 40 now). I am not sure what age you are, but you need to know this thing for sure if you are past, I think, around 30 as running a life like this can be very painful. There simply is a tiny chance of 'big success' while most just live in almost poverty the first 20-30 years of doing this. That's also why I think you are probably young and haven't seen that yet ; most give up and tell stories to their kids later about it. Not to squash your enthusiasm; just saying that 'control of my destiny' is mostly not true at all; you are being lived by actual constraints of life. If you get a mortgage, kids, spouse, investors etc these constraints can easily 'live' you instead of you controlling anything. I was lucky, but just saying to be careful in thinking this and keep tabs on the 'do I actually still like this' factor. A regular job, for most of my friends who started out with me, was a blessing.
- deleted 12y ago
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- deleted 12y ago
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- MCRed 12y ago
  I'm older than you. Have done this before, spent 6 years "unemployed" traveling the world before I "got a job" that turned out to be a terrible decision. Of course you don't have control over your destiny to the point of just wishing you had a million bucks... but I also now don't have a psychotic boss whose only experience has been in the military micromanaging software development and doing everything he can to "control" things without any understanding of software development.
  - tluyben2 12y ago
    Indeed that's a reason I do it as well and I applaud all for going that route ; I'm just saying that if you do it for that reason you might turn out in a smaller prison than actually having a boss. But if you are not greedy, don't care about materialistic things too much, know how to save money for a rainy day and have a family that supports that way of living, I wouldn't want it any other way.
LargeCompanies 12y ago
I've lived with a parent (it's a big house they'd alone otherwise here) for I guess too many years then I've should. Also I'm old and my g/f who is similar age of five years also lives with a parent. Though she is getting antsy and wants kids and she only has a few years left. I want a family too but have been holding off for that big moment when my team and I start generating money and or sell our work. Ugh will that happen I don't know but I need to get back into the workforce and do our startup on the side. This what I was doing for the last year and half until I lost yet another developer job because of my incessant need to startup. I've lost two jobs in the two and half years because my bosses found out about my startup or we become friendly and I talk about it a lot. Ugh I'm sorta feeling stuck professionally and tomorrow I start my 3rd incubator yet im unemployed. You might want to reconsider startup pursuits after your early to mid 30s.
- Kurtz79 12y ago
  I might be naive, but I don't see having to choose self-employment or salaried work as a all-or-nothing, no-going-back decision. You could easily secure a well paid job for a few years, and save enough to support working on a start-up or starting a consulting business. If things do not go as planned, I can see no problems in going back to being employed, since your skills won´t have withered in the meantime, and possibily learned new ones. It seems to me that the startup culture is seen sometimes as a "get rich quick" scheme, where the goal is to retire at 25. A normal career in most professions lasts 30/40 years...
- sumedh 12y ago
  > we become friendly and I talk about it a lot. Loose lips sink ships.
- MCRed 12y ago
  I'm in my 40s and have been working for and with startups since my early 20s. I'd rather scrape by doing what I love than make bank and hating my life. Of course, making bank and loving it would be the ideal. But its not like I think the odds are huge. One thing I am doing is building up my side businesses. Get enough side income going to live on and you can work for a startup at low risk. Not the case when you have a family, of course.
emodendroket 12y ago
I don't think the majority of the long-term unemployed are unemployed because they're working on tech startups.
- MCRed 12y ago
  I don't know the proportions at all, didn't mean to imply the majority were. However, it is a trend that there are a lot more people becoming independant and making their money online via various ways (not all of which are startups, most of which are probably what would be called "lifestyle businesses" here, though I hate that term) and thus not counted on the "employment rolls".
  - emodendroket 12y ago
    Maybe, but most of those people aren't voluntarily doing that, are underpaid, and don't have any chance of making it big with what they're doing. Basically, all of the hardship of being independent without the rewards. (think of freelance journalists working for peanuts, or often putting stuff out for free for "exposure," for instance)
josephschmoe 12y ago
Actually, I think this is less common now than it was 20 years ago.
- MCRed 12y ago
  Well, 30 years ago there was no global internet full of knowledge and allowing collaboration-- I had to go to the college library. There was also no global internet allowing for an instant global market to be serviced from the middle of nowhere. If you started a business in podunk, your market was the podunk area. (For the most part, there was mail order and stuff, but that still had a higher barrier to entry than the internet does now.) So I think things have gotten easier and a lot more people are doing it. I'm interested in hearing why you think the opposite-- I bet you're observing a different trend than I am focusing on. (eg both trends can be true)
eeeeeeeeeeeee 12y ago
I don't think there are "quite a lot of people out there" like you, but I guess it depends on what "a lot" is. It's great what you're doing, but you are likely in the minority. Most people do not have the luxury or skills to do that.

by MCRed 12y ago

7Figures2Commas 12y ago

> I may not have the cash rolling in, but at least I'm in control of my destiny. Hey Ma, I'm moving in! How are people who don't have a meaningful source of income and who are dependent on their parents for shelter any more in control of their destinies than corporate worker bees?

gutnor 12y ago
It is not only that - even when you run your own company you can and often are effectively dependent on your clients/market ( especially that big client making 80% of your revenue ), or the need of your dependents ( you still need to pay your mortgage ) . That's a common complain here on HN of founder "selling out", "losing the original spirit", ... There is a cultural bias for entrepreneur, especially in the US (that's not a bad thing BTW), so struggling directly against the market is seen as more glamorous then through a corporate structure/middleman. In the end, you are as in control of your destiny as much as your wealth permit, no matter how you made that wealth in the first place.
- MCRed 12y ago
  Here's the difference: When the market says something, I can react to it and improve immediately. For me the market is large and variety, it's not like a few people make up %80 of the income. Working for a corporation, in the most recent case, meant dealing with people who were so incompetent that they did everything I can think of to interfere with us reacting to the market. You know the saying about how people with nothing to do create work for others? Well, when you're a software team and the boss has zero software skills, or understanding, or care, you end up in a lot of pointless meetings. Seriously, I would get interrupted 200 times in a day. (I counted once). So, more risk, less secure money, but avoiding harassment, verbal abuse, manipulation, gas lighting, and 200 interruptions a day is a huge positive trade off. For me at least. Plus I get to see my parents for a few months while I pick out the next place I'm going to live.
  - gutnor 12y ago
    You are just comparing a shit job to a good job, and well the shit job is shittier than the good one. Let's run with your example - what would have been your boss opinion ? Or if your business is growing and you need more people, how will you treat them and how should they feel ? You have a good job in a hot sector, enjoy it, don't try to generalise to everybody or other sectors. Actually, the article is all about people that don't share our luck.
Kurtz79 12y ago
Not all corporate jobs are soulless, mind crushing Orwellian nightmares, and nothing prevents you from looking for a fulfilling job if you are unhappy with your present one, especially in our field.
- MCRed 12y ago
  True, and I did spend some time looking. It's kinda sad, though, how our field seems to have devolved in the past 15 years. Startups today are much more corporate, more likely to be run by biz guys without appreciation for software, etc. Here's a good litmus test: If they have an open floor plan they clearly don't care about developers. If they BRAG about having an open floor plan-- and so many of them do-- they are terrible. Run away.

brandonmenc 12y ago

> it's not as big a deal to me as it would be to men of my age 20 years ago. Less than 6% of workers are working computer or math jobs - of any kind - which suggests that the overwhelming majority of people still have a difficult time when they're listed as "unemployed."

IndianAstronaut 12y ago
One common trend I have seen in my social circle is the lack of any employable skills. They may or may not have college degrees, but in general their degrees did not give them concrete job skills or they don't have a degree and no skilled trade. What would ideally happen is people learn a skilled trade if they are stuck on the job market. This training should also happen in high school.
- XorNot 12y ago
  Except the education system is bad at picking winners. What's in demand when you're in highschool is not what's in demand by the time you're entering the workforce.
  - rjsw 12y ago
    I remember finding that "Computer Programmer" wasn't listed as a possible job when we got careers advice as early teens.
    - arethuza 12y ago
      My 15 year old son got recommended the following options by a career guidance system his school uses: - Lawyer - Town planner - Royal Marine Officer I'd love to know the "logic" that led from his interests/skills to that selection! [NB Only one of these got the reaction "don't do that" from his mother and I].
  - shoover 12y ago
    How do they pick? Maybe they need help picking better. Seems like there's a lot of people around here interested in trends and intelligence that could help with that.

marcell 12y ago

It is great that you are able to do this, but not that your situation is not the one described in the article. The article discusses men who only qualify for low/no skill jobs paying $10-15/hr. That is markedly different from a tech startup cofounder who could get a software engineering job paying $100k+ with benefits.

rtpg 12y ago
yeah, a big problem with the whole "Don't need BigCo's job cuz I'm running a SV startup!" narrative is that it's really only accessible for people who already belonged to pretty privileged classes (exceptions exist, obviously.) A portion of the population does not get opportunities to develop these skills and were once allowed low-skilled jobs that paid "decently" but have now found themselves squeezed due to inflation and companies hoarding cash instead of spending it.
- shutupalready 12y ago
  > companies hoarding cash instead of spending it I've heard this sentiment many times but I've wondered if there's an economic fallacy there. Would the economy be better off if lots of companies stopped hoarding cash and hired lots of new employees? Or would there be side-effects like inflation, or some effect of pulling out cash from whatever it was invested in, etc.? Serious question.
  - barry-cotter 12y ago
    > I've heard this sentiment many times but I've wondered if there's an economic fallacy there. There is, it's a confusion between money and capacity. That money is an option, the possibility of getting people to do things for you. Unused money is paper. > Would the economy be better off if lots of companies stopped hoarding cash and hired lots of new employees? The economy is an abstraction. It can't be better off. But if the companies that have the money had productive ways to spend it they would be doing so. The fact that there aren't that many productive ways to use the money is why the interest rate is so low. The interest rate is the cost of renting money.

tluyben2 12y ago

I have never had 'a job' and had startups (and later mature companies) since I was 15 (I am 40 now). I am not sure what age you are, but you need to know this thing for sure if you are past, I think, around 30 as running a life like this can be very painful. There simply is a tiny chance of 'big success' while most just live in almost poverty the first 20-30 years of doing this. That's also why I think you are probably young and haven't seen that yet ; most give up and tell stories to their kids later about it. Not to squash your enthusiasm; just saying that 'control of my destiny' is mostly not true at all; you are being lived by actual constraints of life. If you get a mortgage, kids, spouse, investors etc these constraints can easily 'live' you instead of you controlling anything. I was lucky, but just saying to be careful in thinking this and keep tabs on the 'do I actually still like this' factor. A regular job, for most of my friends who started out with me, was a blessing.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
MCRed 12y ago
I'm older than you. Have done this before, spent 6 years "unemployed" traveling the world before I "got a job" that turned out to be a terrible decision. Of course you don't have control over your destiny to the point of just wishing you had a million bucks... but I also now don't have a psychotic boss whose only experience has been in the military micromanaging software development and doing everything he can to "control" things without any understanding of software development.
- tluyben2 12y ago
  Indeed that's a reason I do it as well and I applaud all for going that route ; I'm just saying that if you do it for that reason you might turn out in a smaller prison than actually having a boss. But if you are not greedy, don't care about materialistic things too much, know how to save money for a rainy day and have a family that supports that way of living, I wouldn't want it any other way.

LargeCompanies 12y ago

I've lived with a parent (it's a big house they'd alone otherwise here) for I guess too many years then I've should. Also I'm old and my g/f who is similar age of five years also lives with a parent. Though she is getting antsy and wants kids and she only has a few years left. I want a family too but have been holding off for that big moment when my team and I start generating money and or sell our work. Ugh will that happen I don't know but I need to get back into the workforce and do our startup on the side. This what I was doing for the last year and half until I lost yet another developer job because of my incessant need to startup. I've lost two jobs in the two and half years because my bosses found out about my startup or we become friendly and I talk about it a lot. Ugh I'm sorta feeling stuck professionally and tomorrow I start my 3rd incubator yet im unemployed. You might want to reconsider startup pursuits after your early to mid 30s.

Kurtz79 12y ago
I might be naive, but I don't see having to choose self-employment or salaried work as a all-or-nothing, no-going-back decision. You could easily secure a well paid job for a few years, and save enough to support working on a start-up or starting a consulting business. If things do not go as planned, I can see no problems in going back to being employed, since your skills won´t have withered in the meantime, and possibily learned new ones. It seems to me that the startup culture is seen sometimes as a "get rich quick" scheme, where the goal is to retire at 25. A normal career in most professions lasts 30/40 years...
sumedh 12y ago
> we become friendly and I talk about it a lot. Loose lips sink ships.
MCRed 12y ago
I'm in my 40s and have been working for and with startups since my early 20s. I'd rather scrape by doing what I love than make bank and hating my life. Of course, making bank and loving it would be the ideal. But its not like I think the odds are huge. One thing I am doing is building up my side businesses. Get enough side income going to live on and you can work for a startup at low risk. Not the case when you have a family, of course.

emodendroket 12y ago

I don't think the majority of the long-term unemployed are unemployed because they're working on tech startups.

MCRed 12y ago
I don't know the proportions at all, didn't mean to imply the majority were. However, it is a trend that there are a lot more people becoming independant and making their money online via various ways (not all of which are startups, most of which are probably what would be called "lifestyle businesses" here, though I hate that term) and thus not counted on the "employment rolls".
- emodendroket 12y ago
  Maybe, but most of those people aren't voluntarily doing that, are underpaid, and don't have any chance of making it big with what they're doing. Basically, all of the hardship of being independent without the rewards. (think of freelance journalists working for peanuts, or often putting stuff out for free for "exposure," for instance)

josephschmoe 12y ago

Actually, I think this is less common now than it was 20 years ago.

MCRed 12y ago
Well, 30 years ago there was no global internet full of knowledge and allowing collaboration-- I had to go to the college library. There was also no global internet allowing for an instant global market to be serviced from the middle of nowhere. If you started a business in podunk, your market was the podunk area. (For the most part, there was mail order and stuff, but that still had a higher barrier to entry than the internet does now.) So I think things have gotten easier and a lot more people are doing it. I'm interested in hearing why you think the opposite-- I bet you're observing a different trend than I am focusing on. (eg both trends can be true)

eeeeeeeeeeeee 12y ago

I don't think there are "quite a lot of people out there" like you, but I guess it depends on what "a lot" is. It's great what you're doing, but you are likely in the minority. Most people do not have the luxury or skills to do that.