8 ms·

Special K, a Hallucinogen, Raises Hopes and Concerns as Treatment for Depression

89 points by applecore 12y ago

oddshocks 12y ago
Could have sworn Ketamine was classified as a dissociative. Maybe I was wrong.
- bashinator 12y ago
  You're not wrong - it's a terrible clickbait headline.
aantix 12y ago
On a side note, why does the following always get disclosed as a downside? >Besides the psychoticlike effects, ketamine can raise blood pressure and heart rate. Doesn't exercise or even caffeine do the same? Is it even worth mentioning this side effect unless it's for an abnormally long period?
- nerfhammer 12y ago
  If you already have problems with either of those you would want to know about them being possible side effects
- tesq 12y ago
  Why mention the "psychoticlike" effects? Don't sleep or alcohol do the same? Psychotic effects can have lasting mental damage to those susceptible to mental illness, just as heightened blood pressure and heart rate might be a problem for someone susceptible to cardiovascular disease. Being treated for severe depression means you are susceptible to mental illness, and the chances that you're getting adequate exercise or eating food that isn't killing you are incredibly slim. You're also probably on medications that make you tired, hungry and alter your metabolism in mysterious ways. These are the considerations you and your doctor have to take into account when devising a treatment plan. The full disclosure of side effects will help.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- refurb 12y ago
  Increases in either heart rate or blood pressure are major cardiovascular risks. There were a couple drugs that went through the FDA a couple years ago that didn't get approved because they increased blood pressure. Exercise does increase blood pressure, but it's not associated with an increased risk of cardiovascular events. Don't know the details about caffeine, but I would assume the risk isn't that great.
KyleSanderson 12y ago
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/29811499 http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/29811499 http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/25186316 http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/25186316 Exercise extreme caution, the article doesn't even seem to acknowledge the seriousness of this at all...
- user_0001 12y ago
  I don't think the article is suggestion people sniff 5+ grams a day every day for long periods, which is required to get the serious bladder problems as mentioned in those articles
- mmastrac 12y ago
  Some of these users seem to be drastically abusing the drug: "He said at the height of his addiction, he was taking it for 23 hours a day." The others don't really specify if they were taking it in large quantities. With proper safety studies, monitoring, and dosing it seems like there would be less chance of this happening.
- egypturnash 12y ago
  From the second link: "Where I used to live, there was nothing to do at all. "We had this mentality of really battering whatever substance we had in front of us. K [ketamine] just seemed to be the best substance we had available." All of these horror stories you link to sound like people who have been habitually abusing ketamine, taking ever larger doses as they build up a tolerance. Pretty much ANYTHING can be abused; do we ban sleeping pills because you can swallow a whole bottle and kill yourself?
  - contingencies 12y ago
    do we ban sleeping pills because you can swallow a whole bottle and kill yourself? Well, here in China, they only supply 3-5 sleeping pills or so after consultation, and you can no longer buy them over the counter. This is precisely because too many people were killing themselves.
- lomidrevo 12y ago
egypturnash 12y ago
I have never done ketamine. But a hit of MDMA was kind of instrumental in lifting me out of twenty years of depression.
- comrh 12y ago
  Which is interesting because of the SSRI I'm on all MDMA did was make me grind my teeth really bad. I want to try it again but don't want to stop the SSRI to do so.
  - ripter 12y ago
    From my understanding, SSRI's negate the effects of MDMA. So you can't do both. https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_info9.shtml https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_info9.shtml
  - crystaln 12y ago
    This can also cause serotonin syndrome, which can cause serious damage to your brain and untreatable side effects. Not a safe combination.
  - ChristianBundy 12y ago
    Using MDMA and and SSRI together is a bad combination. https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_info9.shtml https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_info9.shtml
  - amckenna 12y ago
    You took MDMA while on an SSRI? You really should research a drug's mechanism of action and how multiple drugs may interact before taking them together. Im not a medical professional, I just want to give you a quick overview so you don't repeat that mistake. Do your own research. - An SSRI (Selective Serotonin Re-uptake Inhibitor) blocks your brain's re-uptake of serotonin and effectively increases your brain's levels of serotonin.[1] - MDMA acts as a presynaptic releasing agent of serotonin. Increasing the amount of serotonin in the synaptic cleft (space between neurons).[2] - That means the two of these drugs combined can cause a huge spike in serotonin and potentially lead to serotonin syndrome (toxicity). Be safe. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_serotonin_reuptake_inhibitor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_serotonin_reuptake_i... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDMA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDMA
jcr 12y ago
Another place where ketamine has been used "off label" has been in the treatment of Complex Regional Pain Syndrome (CRPS) formerly called Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy (RSD), "causalgia", or Reflex Neurovascular Dystrophy (RND). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_regional_pain_syndrome#Ketamine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_regional_pain_syndrome#... Edit: I'm not sure why this nytimes article is being considered "news" on HN since topic has been discussed here quite a few times over the last three years. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4043198 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4043198 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4615602 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4615602 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5116706 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5116706 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5758647 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5758647 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7522343 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7522343
- dang 12y ago
  I'd say it's news. It's a recent article, and those other threads are years old.
- justinpaulson 12y ago
  Still Called RSD by many :) I am upvoting and commenting to spread awareness about CRPS. It is one of the most terrible disorders that a human can ever endure and it is insane that the use of ketamine has not been accepted as a non-expiremental treatment for it. My wife just finished a two day ketamine booster yesterday, and without the use of ketamine she would not be able to walk or even open and close her hands. Nothing else has ever helped her CRPS and ketamine has improved her quality of life in immeasurable ways. Yet we still have to pay for every single dollar of every single treatment out of pocket. So glad we are forced to pay for insurance that won't even acknowledge thousands of dollars a year of medical spending for necessary treatments.
  - jcr 12y ago
    Justin, my email address is in my hn profile "about" section where you (and everyone) can read it. If you contact me by email, I'll share with you the research and data I've collected. Needless to say, me happening to know of this other off-label use of ketamine is not a coincidence.
chimeracoder 12y ago
Just goes to show that the difference between medical use and recreational use is really in the set, setting, dosage, and means of ingestion! Ketamine is already very commonly used medically, because it is relatively safe (compared to other similar dissociative anesthetics) and has a very short half-life, making it a good choice for certain procedures. Unlike many anesthetics, ketamine does not suppress breathing much. Combined with the fact that it is a bronchodilator, it can be used in many situations for which other anesthetics would be risky or inappropriate. If you've had a colonoscopy[0], there's a good chance you've already had ketamine, just not in the same doses that you would have taken at a club! [0] Which, if you're over the age of 50, you should do! Colon cancer is very treatable if it's caught early.
- blacksmith_tb 12y ago
  I had noticeable psychosis courtesy of ketamine in the ICU after being run over by a truck. Likely having a broken pelvis etc. didn't contribute to a positive trip, of course, but I would be very reluctant to take it again (not that anyone asked at the time - or that I could have answered sensibly). But like most psychoactives, dosage is key...
  - refurb 12y ago
    The WHO lists ketamine as a "essential medication" since it is an ideal anesthetic for countries with limited resources. It's quite safe (doesn't depress breathing) and effective. However, as you noticed, many folks who are treated with ketamine find the experience very unpleasant. Unless there is a good reason for using it as an anesthetic, doctors typically go with other drugs.
- refurb 12y ago
  If you've had a colonoscopy[0], there's a good chance you've already had ketamine, just not in the same doses that you would have taken at a club! Maybe it's different outside the US, but they don't use ketamine for colonoscopies. Or if they do, it's quite rare. Ketamine can produce quite unpleasant effects in patients. Sedation for colonoscopies is usually a sedative like midazolam and an opioid like fentanyl.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
crystaln 12y ago
If anyone is interested in the sordid history of the prescription and prohibition drug dichotomy, I highly recommend "This is Your Country on Drugs." The book details how the drug war came to be as a political and economic tool to expand government power and create pharmaceutical monopolies, not primarily for consumer safety.
- innguest 12y ago
  Thanks for the recommendation.
Mvandenbergh 12y ago
Alternative headline: "Ketamine, a commonly used anaesthetic drug long on the WHO's list of essential medicines, raises hopes and concerns as treatment for depression" But that headline would be way too long.
- warfangle 12y ago
  Not only that, it's not a hallucinogen. It's a /dissociative/ anesthetic. About the only other thing commonly used that has similar effects is dextromethorphan hydrobromide - the primary ingredient in over the counter cough syrup.
  - antihero 12y ago
    It's a dissociative hallucinogen. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucinogen http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucinogen
joesmo 12y ago
It's amazing what great lengths some people will go to to stop others who might feel good from using a substance or performing an activity they are completely unfamiliar with. In America, at least, this seems to be much more ingrained in the culture than just about anything else. The really sad part is that even if this is in pursuit of saving lives, like the therapy mentioned in the article and many others, most people have absolutely no qualms about speaking out against it or trying to stop it. It seems, if it were up to the prevailing mindset in this country, everyone should live in absolute misery and pain. Drug companies wanting to develop non-generic drugs for profit reasons is one thing that's at least understandable, but the people who support such hate of others' potential at an enjoyable (or at least not horrific in the case of depression) life is just disgusting.
- onion2k 12y ago
  In the case of drugs, it's because most chemical compounds have more than one effect on the body. While something might alleviate one problem it can create an entirely different problem. Without a thorough understanding of what it's going to do to someone it would be deeply unethical for a chemist or a doctor to give someone a drug. This is not limited to illegal or untested drugs - it's unethical for a doctor to prescribe entirely legal drugs without knowing what they're giving.
  - psychometry 12y ago
    Absolutely true, but the phama industry and plenty of politicians across the spectrum go to great lengths to even prevent research into these substances.
  - joesmo 12y ago
    So this justifies hating others' pleasurable activities enough to send them to jail? I'm not seeing the connection.
- jerf 12y ago
  I don't think that's it. It doesn't match what I see or what I hear. What I see & hear are that "Drugs are bad, mm'kay?" And while, yes, I'm referencing a comedy show, I'm referencing the whole idea from the show, including the idea that people have been just so hammered by the propaganda that what they know is "Drugs are bad, mm'kay?" and can't even make a half-logical anymore after decades of thoughtless propaganda on the topic. And, even more importantly, the second-order effects that people know they are socially expected to posture the belief that drugs are bad means that people say it all the harder so they look even holier than the person next to them, by being seen to condemn it even harder. But I never hear anybody say "Omigosh, those guys might have a good time on a therapy drug, that can't be stood for!" That is, frankly, giving them too much credit, much as I hate to say it. Long before they're thinking that deeply about it, they've already hit the "Drugs are BAD!" button and stopped thinking about it. Behold the perils of demanding that nobody be allowed to think about certain things. How fortunate that this is the only case of that pattern in American culture.
Raphmedia 12y ago
My mother has had Ketamine injections for fibromyalgia. It wasn't successful in managing her pains. I have done Ketamine once, and all I felt was... drunk. As opposed to psilocybin which changed my worldview heavily and taught me a lot about myself.
- Sanddancer 12y ago
  Everyone reacts different to medications, that's why there are so many of them, and why it's sometimes a problem for people with chronic problems to find the right one. I'm on my third anti-anxiety med, and I think I've finally found the right one, after the prior one made my depression worse and sapped what little motivation I had. There's no magic bullet in pharmaceuticals, that's one of the reasons there is constant research into the subject. More availability means a greater chance to find the drug that works.
  - Raphmedia 12y ago
    Yes! Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy that health professional are taking a look at drugs that are taboo. There is a wealth of potential in a lot of those substance!
stronglikedan 12y ago
I've always heard that Special K is a dissociative, not a hallucinogen. This has been confirmed with my experience with it as well. It's the only drug I've every tried where I can float above myself and look down on my body, but I've never seen anything that really wasn't there, no matter how much I've taken.
- soylentcola 12y ago
  Not arguing the hallucinogen/dissociative labeling but wouldn't imagining the view from above your body count as seeing something that was generated entirely in your head? I mean...unless you were somehow actually floating above yourself which seems fairly unlikely (what with your eyes remaining in your head and all).
  - stronglikedan 12y ago
    I don't know that it isn't a hallucinogen, but I've always heard that it's not. Although, I wouldn't consider an out-of-body experience a hallucination, because it's not adding anything to the scene. I think it's more of a perspective shift, based on what you already know about yourself and your surroundings. I wonder if it could be experienced by someone who has (hypothetically) never looked at themselves in a mirror, or someone who is blindfolded and moved into a different setting that they were not previously familiar with. I've experienced plenty of hallucinations, and the out-of-body experience from K was dramatically different for me. If felt more like a dream state, rather than a mostly normal state where my eyes were playing tricks on me (LSD and the like).
- jtmcmc 12y ago
  ". It's the only drug I've every tried where I can float above myself and look down on my body" would certainly be a hallucination. Ketamine is both a dissociative (it makes you feel disconnected from your body) and a hallucinogen (it can cause visual patterns or images to appear that are not parsimonious with what you would normally see). It becomes far more hallucinogenic (or psychedelic preferentially) when you "khole".
  - 12y ago
bob917 12y ago
This drug is best done mixed with cocaine. The kids call it a roller coaster. Do enough that you enter the hole or you've wasted your time and money. Intravaneous highly advised. Buy it in liquid form and cook it yourself.
WhitneyLand 12y ago
One thing I don't see in the comments is direct testimony (standard caveats apply). Anecdotally, I can tell you this works. And it's not just incremental improvement, it's a night and day difference. I wouldn't normally comment on this but it seems unethical not to when so much is at stake.
girvo 12y ago
They're also looking into using buprenorphine (which I take daily as suboxone as treatment for my previous addiction) for depression. Anecdotally, it's pushed my horrendous depression into remission entirely since I began on it. http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/major-depressive-disorder/qa-buprenorphine-treatment-resistant-depression http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/major-depressive-disorder/qa...
flippyhead 12y ago
Funny, this is new but there is this article from 2010: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/10/health/10depress.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/10/health/10depress.html?_r=0

89 points by applecore 12y ago

oddshocks 12y ago

Could have sworn Ketamine was classified as a dissociative. Maybe I was wrong.

bashinator 12y ago
You're not wrong - it's a terrible clickbait headline.

aantix 12y ago

On a side note, why does the following always get disclosed as a downside? >Besides the psychoticlike effects, ketamine can raise blood pressure and heart rate. Doesn't exercise or even caffeine do the same? Is it even worth mentioning this side effect unless it's for an abnormally long period?

nerfhammer 12y ago
If you already have problems with either of those you would want to know about them being possible side effects
tesq 12y ago
Why mention the "psychoticlike" effects? Don't sleep or alcohol do the same? Psychotic effects can have lasting mental damage to those susceptible to mental illness, just as heightened blood pressure and heart rate might be a problem for someone susceptible to cardiovascular disease. Being treated for severe depression means you are susceptible to mental illness, and the chances that you're getting adequate exercise or eating food that isn't killing you are incredibly slim. You're also probably on medications that make you tired, hungry and alter your metabolism in mysterious ways. These are the considerations you and your doctor have to take into account when devising a treatment plan. The full disclosure of side effects will help.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
refurb 12y ago
Increases in either heart rate or blood pressure are major cardiovascular risks. There were a couple drugs that went through the FDA a couple years ago that didn't get approved because they increased blood pressure. Exercise does increase blood pressure, but it's not associated with an increased risk of cardiovascular events. Don't know the details about caffeine, but I would assume the risk isn't that great.

KyleSanderson 12y ago

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/29811499 http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/29811499 http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/25186316 http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/25186316 Exercise extreme caution, the article doesn't even seem to acknowledge the seriousness of this at all...

user_0001 12y ago
I don't think the article is suggestion people sniff 5+ grams a day every day for long periods, which is required to get the serious bladder problems as mentioned in those articles
mmastrac 12y ago
Some of these users seem to be drastically abusing the drug: "He said at the height of his addiction, he was taking it for 23 hours a day." The others don't really specify if they were taking it in large quantities. With proper safety studies, monitoring, and dosing it seems like there would be less chance of this happening.
egypturnash 12y ago
From the second link: "Where I used to live, there was nothing to do at all. "We had this mentality of really battering whatever substance we had in front of us. K [ketamine] just seemed to be the best substance we had available." All of these horror stories you link to sound like people who have been habitually abusing ketamine, taking ever larger doses as they build up a tolerance. Pretty much ANYTHING can be abused; do we ban sleeping pills because you can swallow a whole bottle and kill yourself?
- contingencies 12y ago
  do we ban sleeping pills because you can swallow a whole bottle and kill yourself? Well, here in China, they only supply 3-5 sleeping pills or so after consultation, and you can no longer buy them over the counter. This is precisely because too many people were killing themselves.
lomidrevo 12y ago

egypturnash 12y ago

I have never done ketamine. But a hit of MDMA was kind of instrumental in lifting me out of twenty years of depression.

comrh 12y ago
Which is interesting because of the SSRI I'm on all MDMA did was make me grind my teeth really bad. I want to try it again but don't want to stop the SSRI to do so.
- ripter 12y ago
  From my understanding, SSRI's negate the effects of MDMA. So you can't do both. https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_info9.shtml https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_info9.shtml
- crystaln 12y ago
  This can also cause serotonin syndrome, which can cause serious damage to your brain and untreatable side effects. Not a safe combination.
- ChristianBundy 12y ago
  Using MDMA and and SSRI together is a bad combination. https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_info9.shtml https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_info9.shtml
- amckenna 12y ago
  You took MDMA while on an SSRI? You really should research a drug's mechanism of action and how multiple drugs may interact before taking them together. Im not a medical professional, I just want to give you a quick overview so you don't repeat that mistake. Do your own research. - An SSRI (Selective Serotonin Re-uptake Inhibitor) blocks your brain's re-uptake of serotonin and effectively increases your brain's levels of serotonin.[1] - MDMA acts as a presynaptic releasing agent of serotonin. Increasing the amount of serotonin in the synaptic cleft (space between neurons).[2] - That means the two of these drugs combined can cause a huge spike in serotonin and potentially lead to serotonin syndrome (toxicity). Be safe. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_serotonin_reuptake_inhibitor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_serotonin_reuptake_i... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDMA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDMA

jcr 12y ago

Another place where ketamine has been used "off label" has been in the treatment of Complex Regional Pain Syndrome (CRPS) formerly called Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy (RSD), "causalgia", or Reflex Neurovascular Dystrophy (RND). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_regional_pain_syndrome#Ketamine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_regional_pain_syndrome#... Edit: I'm not sure why this nytimes article is being considered "news" on HN since topic has been discussed here quite a few times over the last three years. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4043198 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4043198 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4615602 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4615602 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5116706 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5116706 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5758647 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5758647 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7522343 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7522343

dang 12y ago
I'd say it's news. It's a recent article, and those other threads are years old.
justinpaulson 12y ago
Still Called RSD by many :) I am upvoting and commenting to spread awareness about CRPS. It is one of the most terrible disorders that a human can ever endure and it is insane that the use of ketamine has not been accepted as a non-expiremental treatment for it. My wife just finished a two day ketamine booster yesterday, and without the use of ketamine she would not be able to walk or even open and close her hands. Nothing else has ever helped her CRPS and ketamine has improved her quality of life in immeasurable ways. Yet we still have to pay for every single dollar of every single treatment out of pocket. So glad we are forced to pay for insurance that won't even acknowledge thousands of dollars a year of medical spending for necessary treatments.
- jcr 12y ago
  Justin, my email address is in my hn profile "about" section where you (and everyone) can read it. If you contact me by email, I'll share with you the research and data I've collected. Needless to say, me happening to know of this other off-label use of ketamine is not a coincidence.

chimeracoder 12y ago

Just goes to show that the difference between medical use and recreational use is really in the set, setting, dosage, and means of ingestion! Ketamine is already very commonly used medically, because it is relatively safe (compared to other similar dissociative anesthetics) and has a very short half-life, making it a good choice for certain procedures. Unlike many anesthetics, ketamine does not suppress breathing much. Combined with the fact that it is a bronchodilator, it can be used in many situations for which other anesthetics would be risky or inappropriate. If you've had a colonoscopy[0], there's a good chance you've already had ketamine, just not in the same doses that you would have taken at a club! [0] Which, if you're over the age of 50, you should do! Colon cancer is very treatable if it's caught early.

blacksmith_tb 12y ago
I had noticeable psychosis courtesy of ketamine in the ICU after being run over by a truck. Likely having a broken pelvis etc. didn't contribute to a positive trip, of course, but I would be very reluctant to take it again (not that anyone asked at the time - or that I could have answered sensibly). But like most psychoactives, dosage is key...
- refurb 12y ago
  The WHO lists ketamine as a "essential medication" since it is an ideal anesthetic for countries with limited resources. It's quite safe (doesn't depress breathing) and effective. However, as you noticed, many folks who are treated with ketamine find the experience very unpleasant. Unless there is a good reason for using it as an anesthetic, doctors typically go with other drugs.
refurb 12y ago
If you've had a colonoscopy[0], there's a good chance you've already had ketamine, just not in the same doses that you would have taken at a club! Maybe it's different outside the US, but they don't use ketamine for colonoscopies. Or if they do, it's quite rare. Ketamine can produce quite unpleasant effects in patients. Sedation for colonoscopies is usually a sedative like midazolam and an opioid like fentanyl.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

crystaln 12y ago

If anyone is interested in the sordid history of the prescription and prohibition drug dichotomy, I highly recommend "This is Your Country on Drugs." The book details how the drug war came to be as a political and economic tool to expand government power and create pharmaceutical monopolies, not primarily for consumer safety.

innguest 12y ago
Thanks for the recommendation.

Mvandenbergh 12y ago

Alternative headline: "Ketamine, a commonly used anaesthetic drug long on the WHO's list of essential medicines, raises hopes and concerns as treatment for depression" But that headline would be way too long.

warfangle 12y ago
Not only that, it's not a hallucinogen. It's a /dissociative/ anesthetic. About the only other thing commonly used that has similar effects is dextromethorphan hydrobromide - the primary ingredient in over the counter cough syrup.
- antihero 12y ago
  It's a dissociative hallucinogen. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucinogen http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucinogen

joesmo 12y ago

It's amazing what great lengths some people will go to to stop others who might feel good from using a substance or performing an activity they are completely unfamiliar with. In America, at least, this seems to be much more ingrained in the culture than just about anything else. The really sad part is that even if this is in pursuit of saving lives, like the therapy mentioned in the article and many others, most people have absolutely no qualms about speaking out against it or trying to stop it. It seems, if it were up to the prevailing mindset in this country, everyone should live in absolute misery and pain. Drug companies wanting to develop non-generic drugs for profit reasons is one thing that's at least understandable, but the people who support such hate of others' potential at an enjoyable (or at least not horrific in the case of depression) life is just disgusting.

onion2k 12y ago
In the case of drugs, it's because most chemical compounds have more than one effect on the body. While something might alleviate one problem it can create an entirely different problem. Without a thorough understanding of what it's going to do to someone it would be deeply unethical for a chemist or a doctor to give someone a drug. This is not limited to illegal or untested drugs - it's unethical for a doctor to prescribe entirely legal drugs without knowing what they're giving.
- psychometry 12y ago
  Absolutely true, but the phama industry and plenty of politicians across the spectrum go to great lengths to even prevent research into these substances.
- joesmo 12y ago
  So this justifies hating others' pleasurable activities enough to send them to jail? I'm not seeing the connection.
jerf 12y ago
I don't think that's it. It doesn't match what I see or what I hear. What I see & hear are that "Drugs are bad, mm'kay?" And while, yes, I'm referencing a comedy show, I'm referencing the whole idea from the show, including the idea that people have been just so hammered by the propaganda that what they know is "Drugs are bad, mm'kay?" and can't even make a half-logical anymore after decades of thoughtless propaganda on the topic. And, even more importantly, the second-order effects that people know they are socially expected to posture the belief that drugs are bad means that people say it all the harder so they look even holier than the person next to them, by being seen to condemn it even harder. But I never hear anybody say "Omigosh, those guys might have a good time on a therapy drug, that can't be stood for!" That is, frankly, giving them too much credit, much as I hate to say it. Long before they're thinking that deeply about it, they've already hit the "Drugs are BAD!" button and stopped thinking about it. Behold the perils of demanding that nobody be allowed to think about certain things. How fortunate that this is the only case of that pattern in American culture.

Raphmedia 12y ago

My mother has had Ketamine injections for fibromyalgia. It wasn't successful in managing her pains. I have done Ketamine once, and all I felt was... drunk. As opposed to psilocybin which changed my worldview heavily and taught me a lot about myself.

Sanddancer 12y ago
Everyone reacts different to medications, that's why there are so many of them, and why it's sometimes a problem for people with chronic problems to find the right one. I'm on my third anti-anxiety med, and I think I've finally found the right one, after the prior one made my depression worse and sapped what little motivation I had. There's no magic bullet in pharmaceuticals, that's one of the reasons there is constant research into the subject. More availability means a greater chance to find the drug that works.
- Raphmedia 12y ago
  Yes! Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy that health professional are taking a look at drugs that are taboo. There is a wealth of potential in a lot of those substance!

stronglikedan 12y ago

I've always heard that Special K is a dissociative, not a hallucinogen. This has been confirmed with my experience with it as well. It's the only drug I've every tried where I can float above myself and look down on my body, but I've never seen anything that really wasn't there, no matter how much I've taken.

soylentcola 12y ago
Not arguing the hallucinogen/dissociative labeling but wouldn't imagining the view from above your body count as seeing something that was generated entirely in your head? I mean...unless you were somehow actually floating above yourself which seems fairly unlikely (what with your eyes remaining in your head and all).
- stronglikedan 12y ago
  I don't know that it isn't a hallucinogen, but I've always heard that it's not. Although, I wouldn't consider an out-of-body experience a hallucination, because it's not adding anything to the scene. I think it's more of a perspective shift, based on what you already know about yourself and your surroundings. I wonder if it could be experienced by someone who has (hypothetically) never looked at themselves in a mirror, or someone who is blindfolded and moved into a different setting that they were not previously familiar with. I've experienced plenty of hallucinations, and the out-of-body experience from K was dramatically different for me. If felt more like a dream state, rather than a mostly normal state where my eyes were playing tricks on me (LSD and the like).
jtmcmc 12y ago
". It's the only drug I've every tried where I can float above myself and look down on my body" would certainly be a hallucination. Ketamine is both a dissociative (it makes you feel disconnected from your body) and a hallucinogen (it can cause visual patterns or images to appear that are not parsimonious with what you would normally see). It becomes far more hallucinogenic (or psychedelic preferentially) when you "khole".
- 12y ago

bob917 12y ago

This drug is best done mixed with cocaine. The kids call it a roller coaster. Do enough that you enter the hole or you've wasted your time and money. Intravaneous highly advised. Buy it in liquid form and cook it yourself.

WhitneyLand 12y ago

One thing I don't see in the comments is direct testimony (standard caveats apply). Anecdotally, I can tell you this works. And it's not just incremental improvement, it's a night and day difference. I wouldn't normally comment on this but it seems unethical not to when so much is at stake.

girvo 12y ago

They're also looking into using buprenorphine (which I take daily as suboxone as treatment for my previous addiction) for depression. Anecdotally, it's pushed my horrendous depression into remission entirely since I began on it. http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/major-depressive-disorder/qa-buprenorphine-treatment-resistant-depression http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/major-depressive-disorder/qa...

flippyhead 12y ago

Funny, this is new but there is this article from 2010: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/10/health/10depress.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/10/health/10depress.html?_r=0