5 ms·

And how shall we proceed?

by Arnor 12y ago

patronagezero 12y ago
A start would be to stop looking to someone else to show you the way. What have you tried? Working in groups is what makes it so damn easy to discredit, re-brand and dilute movements. Protesting? C'mon, we're way past the useful application of protesting.
- sp332 12y ago
  That's not 100% true. A good organizer is vital to an effective protest. http://www.thebaffler.com/blog/disruption-time/ http://www.thebaffler.com/blog/disruption-time/
rhizome 12y ago
The US is legally required by the Geneva Convention Against Torture, signed into US law by Ronald Reagan, to prosecute the torturers and their chain of command.
- bdamm 12y ago
  This.
  - bdevani 12y ago
    It requires voting. and being informed. voting for publicly funded limited campaigns. and being active in the courts
- wfn 12y ago
  ..but on the other hand, the US is not part of the ICC (it hasn't signed the 1998 Rome Statute of the ICC), and it also has this jolly federal law in place (2002): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr... The new law authorizes the use of military force to liberate any American or citizen of a U.S.-allied country being held by the court, which is located in The Hague. This provision, dubbed the "Hague invasion clause," has caused a strong reaction from U.S. allies around the world [...] http://www.hrw.org/news/2002/08/03/us-hague-invasion-act-becomes-law http://www.hrw.org/news/2002/08/03/us-hague-invasion-act-bec...
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    This is not entirely correct; the US is not a party to the Rome Statute, true, but it in fact Bill Clinton did sign the Rome Statute, but it was never submitted for ratification, and George W. Bush's administration sent a note purporting to retract the signature (as a means of avoid obligations that attach to signatories to treaties even prior to ratification under the Vienna Convention on Treaties, specifically, the obligation not to work to undermine the treaty's purpose.) The US has engaged more positively (but without any moves toward ratification or even retracting the purported retraction of its signature) with the ICC under the Obama Administration.
    - wfn 12y ago
      Thanks for providing these details. (I didn't even know that Bill Clinton did actually sign the statute, even though it was effectively retracted (if only via (GWB) sending a note purporting to retract the signature, as I take it.))
    - CWuestefeld 12y ago
      I'm not sure what the president's signature, or retraction of signature, should be expected to mean. The key is its ratification by the Senate.
  - mcv 12y ago
    You don't have to be signatory to the ICC for torture to be illegal. The ICC is fairly recent. We didn't need the ICC at Nuremberg. We don't need it now. It can be prosecuted within the US justice system, or a new tibunal can be created for it.
EliRivers 12y ago
The first step is telling your representative(s) that you think torture is bad. They genuinely don't know if you approve of it or not, and they've got the CIA and associated lobby telling them how necessary it is and that if they try to stop it, they're hurting america and in fact they're basically terrorists themselves. Start by phoning your representative's office. Today. Tomorrow. The day after that. Every day, ask for your representative's statement on CIA torture. Ask why they haven't condemned it more thoroughly; are they in favour of torture? What exactly are they going to do to make sure it doesn't happen again? Really? Just that? That's not enough. What else? Talk to your neighbours, friends, family, colleagues. Ask them to do the same. Send letters. Send eMails. Visit in person. Don't stop.
- patronagezero 12y ago
  Politics will not get us out of this mess, but it sure is an easy ride if that's the limitations of your efforts.
  - EliRivers 12y ago
    Given that effecting a change in government policy is what politics is, and that's the aim, what exactly would deal with this situation that isn't politics? You've got a snappy attitude, denigrating the idea of politics; do you have anything that isn't politics, or are you just a smug soundbite? I'm sure all the previous people who used politics to change things did indeed find it an easy ride. Martin King basically phoned in his efforts, didn't he? And I recall Pankhurst effected her changes with a single stern letter to the London Times.
  - lotsofmangos 12y ago
    you tell me about politics this that you speak of rats. --- geese. a world of peace you stumble stammer pound your fist an’ i tell you there are no politics you swear tell me how much you care --- you cheat the lunch counter man out of a pack of cigarettes an’ i tell you there are no politics you tell me of goons’ graves. ginks an’ finks an’ of what you’ve read --- an’ how things should be an’ what you’d do if . . . an i say someone’s been tamperin’ with your head you jump raise your voice --- an’ gyrate yourself t’ the tone of principles your arm is raised an’ i tell you there are no politics in the afternoon you run t’ keep appointments --- with false lovers an’ this leaves you drained by nightfall you ask me questions an’ i say that every question if it’s a truthful question --- can be answered by askin’ it you stomp get mad i say it’s got nothin’ t’ do with gertrude stein you turn your eyes --- t’ the radio an’ tell me what a wasteland exists in television you rant an’ rave of poverty your fingers crawl the walls --- the screen door leaves black marks across your nose your breath remains on window glass bullfight posters hang crooked above your head an’ the phone rings constantly --- you tell me how much i’ve changed as if that is all there is t’ say out of the side of your mouth while talkin’ on the wires in a completely different tone of voice --- than you had a minute ago when speakin’ t’ me about something else i say what’s this about changes? you say "let’s go get drunk" light a cigarette "an’ throw up on the world" --- you go t’ your closet mumblin’ about the phoniness of churches an’ spastic national leaders i say groovy but also holy hollowness too yes hollow holiness --- an’ that some of my best friends know people that go t’ church you blow up slam doors say "can’t no one say nothin’ t’ you" i say "what do You think?" --- your face laughs you say "oh yeeeeeaah?" i’m gonna break up i say an’ reach for your coat ‘neath piles of paper slogans i say your house is dirty --- you say you should talk your hallway stinks as we walk through it your stairs tilt drastically your railing’s rotted an’ there’s blood at the --- bottom of your steps you say t’ meet bricks with bricks i say t’ meet bricks with chalk you tell me monster floor plans an’ i tell you about a bookie shop in boston givin’ odds on the presidential --- race i’m not gonna bet for a while i say little children shoot craps in the alley garbage pot you say "nothin’s perfect" --- an’ i tell you again there are no politics ---- Bob Dylan - some other kinds of songs.

And how shall we proceed?

by Arnor 12y ago

And how shall we proceed?

A start would be to stop looking to someone else to show you the way. What have you tried? Working in groups is what makes it so damn easy to discredit, re-brand and dilute movements. Protesting? C'mon, we're way past the useful application of protesting.

sp332 12y ago
That's not 100% true. A good organizer is vital to an effective protest. http://www.thebaffler.com/blog/disruption-time/ http://www.thebaffler.com/blog/disruption-time/

rhizome 12y ago

The US is legally required by the Geneva Convention Against Torture, signed into US law by Ronald Reagan, to prosecute the torturers and their chain of command.

bdamm 12y ago
This.
- bdevani 12y ago
  It requires voting. and being informed. voting for publicly funded limited campaigns. and being active in the courts
wfn 12y ago
..but on the other hand, the US is not part of the ICC (it hasn't signed the 1998 Rome Statute of the ICC), and it also has this jolly federal law in place (2002): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr... The new law authorizes the use of military force to liberate any American or citizen of a U.S.-allied country being held by the court, which is located in The Hague. This provision, dubbed the "Hague invasion clause," has caused a strong reaction from U.S. allies around the world [...] http://www.hrw.org/news/2002/08/03/us-hague-invasion-act-becomes-law http://www.hrw.org/news/2002/08/03/us-hague-invasion-act-bec...
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  This is not entirely correct; the US is not a party to the Rome Statute, true, but it in fact Bill Clinton did sign the Rome Statute, but it was never submitted for ratification, and George W. Bush's administration sent a note purporting to retract the signature (as a means of avoid obligations that attach to signatories to treaties even prior to ratification under the Vienna Convention on Treaties, specifically, the obligation not to work to undermine the treaty's purpose.) The US has engaged more positively (but without any moves toward ratification or even retracting the purported retraction of its signature) with the ICC under the Obama Administration.
  - wfn 12y ago
    Thanks for providing these details. (I didn't even know that Bill Clinton did actually sign the statute, even though it was effectively retracted (if only via (GWB) sending a note purporting to retract the signature, as I take it.))
  - CWuestefeld 12y ago
    I'm not sure what the president's signature, or retraction of signature, should be expected to mean. The key is its ratification by the Senate.
- mcv 12y ago
  You don't have to be signatory to the ICC for torture to be illegal. The ICC is fairly recent. We didn't need the ICC at Nuremberg. We don't need it now. It can be prosecuted within the US justice system, or a new tibunal can be created for it.

EliRivers 12y ago

The first step is telling your representative(s) that you think torture is bad. They genuinely don't know if you approve of it or not, and they've got the CIA and associated lobby telling them how necessary it is and that if they try to stop it, they're hurting america and in fact they're basically terrorists themselves. Start by phoning your representative's office. Today. Tomorrow. The day after that. Every day, ask for your representative's statement on CIA torture. Ask why they haven't condemned it more thoroughly; are they in favour of torture? What exactly are they going to do to make sure it doesn't happen again? Really? Just that? That's not enough. What else? Talk to your neighbours, friends, family, colleagues. Ask them to do the same. Send letters. Send eMails. Visit in person. Don't stop.

patronagezero 12y ago
Politics will not get us out of this mess, but it sure is an easy ride if that's the limitations of your efforts.
- EliRivers 12y ago
  Given that effecting a change in government policy is what politics is, and that's the aim, what exactly would deal with this situation that isn't politics? You've got a snappy attitude, denigrating the idea of politics; do you have anything that isn't politics, or are you just a smug soundbite? I'm sure all the previous people who used politics to change things did indeed find it an easy ride. Martin King basically phoned in his efforts, didn't he? And I recall Pankhurst effected her changes with a single stern letter to the London Times.
- lotsofmangos 12y ago
  you tell me about politics this that you speak of rats. --- geese. a world of peace you stumble stammer pound your fist an’ i tell you there are no politics you swear tell me how much you care --- you cheat the lunch counter man out of a pack of cigarettes an’ i tell you there are no politics you tell me of goons’ graves. ginks an’ finks an’ of what you’ve read --- an’ how things should be an’ what you’d do if . . . an i say someone’s been tamperin’ with your head you jump raise your voice --- an’ gyrate yourself t’ the tone of principles your arm is raised an’ i tell you there are no politics in the afternoon you run t’ keep appointments --- with false lovers an’ this leaves you drained by nightfall you ask me questions an’ i say that every question if it’s a truthful question --- can be answered by askin’ it you stomp get mad i say it’s got nothin’ t’ do with gertrude stein you turn your eyes --- t’ the radio an’ tell me what a wasteland exists in television you rant an’ rave of poverty your fingers crawl the walls --- the screen door leaves black marks across your nose your breath remains on window glass bullfight posters hang crooked above your head an’ the phone rings constantly --- you tell me how much i’ve changed as if that is all there is t’ say out of the side of your mouth while talkin’ on the wires in a completely different tone of voice --- than you had a minute ago when speakin’ t’ me about something else i say what’s this about changes? you say "let’s go get drunk" light a cigarette "an’ throw up on the world" --- you go t’ your closet mumblin’ about the phoniness of churches an’ spastic national leaders i say groovy but also holy hollowness too yes hollow holiness --- an’ that some of my best friends know people that go t’ church you blow up slam doors say "can’t no one say nothin’ t’ you" i say "what do You think?" --- your face laughs you say "oh yeeeeeaah?" i’m gonna break up i say an’ reach for your coat ‘neath piles of paper slogans i say your house is dirty --- you say you should talk your hallway stinks as we walk through it your stairs tilt drastically your railing’s rotted an’ there’s blood at the --- bottom of your steps you say t’ meet bricks with bricks i say t’ meet bricks with chalk you tell me monster floor plans an’ i tell you about a bookie shop in boston givin’ odds on the presidential --- race i’m not gonna bet for a while i say little children shoot craps in the alley garbage pot you say "nothin’s perfect" --- an’ i tell you again there are no politics ---- Bob Dylan - some other kinds of songs.