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> and someone needs to be held accountable. The citizens of the United States need to be held accountable. Sorry, someone has to start looking at the root of t

> and someone needs to be held accountable. The citizens of the United States need to be held accountable. Sorry, someone has to start looking at the root of the problem.

Loughla 12y ago
I don't understand, how can you blame the citizens for this, when they were ignorant, against their will, about this? When the institution that is performing these acts out-and-out lies about the impact and severity, how can random citizens be held accountable? That honestly makes no sense to me.
- patronagezero 12y ago
  At best, the citizens are ignorantly complicit by lack of attention. What did the people do about MK ULTRA? Who was punished? Oh, that's right, the CIA got off with paying their victims off and no-one was held "accountable". The republic has been dead. What's left is just the populace of the most financially successful country, and those people don't want to be told how complacently evil they and their country have become. I've argued with enough people that will reject the truth up until it's completely ill-refutable, the reason being, they like their lifestyle and make-believe country.
- DanBC 12y ago
  Abu Ghraib was a big fucking clue that something was going terribly wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner...
- trhway 12y ago
  >I don't understand, how can you blame the citizens for this, when they were ignorant, against their will, about this? >When the institution that is performing these acts out-and-out lies about the impact and severity, how can random citizens be held accountable? That honestly makes no sense to me. because the institutions and individuals doing it know that they will go unpunished once the truth gets discovered. Whenever stuff like this surfaces nobody gets punished and thus the citizens/society give clear approval to the actions that have already been perpetrated and to perpetrate it in the future as long as visibility of convenient "ignorance" is maintained.
- fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
  Is this a democracy, or isn't it? And yeah, sure, we're all "ignorant" in the sense that we ignore everything that isn't spelled out in black and white, and then posted at eye level in our line of sight.
CWuestefeld 12y ago
Yes. We can't just keep whining "come on, guys, you really ought to stop" to our leaders. This is happening in our names, and our hands are dirty. Stopping this is our own responsibility.
- Arnor 12y ago
  And how shall we proceed?
  - patronagezero 12y ago
    A start would be to stop looking to someone else to show you the way. What have you tried? Working in groups is what makes it so damn easy to discredit, re-brand and dilute movements. Protesting? C'mon, we're way past the useful application of protesting.
    - sp332 12y ago
      That's not 100% true. A good organizer is vital to an effective protest. http://www.thebaffler.com/blog/disruption-time/ http://www.thebaffler.com/blog/disruption-time/
  - rhizome 12y ago
    The US is legally required by the Geneva Convention Against Torture, signed into US law by Ronald Reagan, to prosecute the torturers and their chain of command.
    - bdamm 12y ago
      This.
      - bdevani 12y ago
        It requires voting. and being informed. voting for publicly funded limited campaigns. and being active in the courts
    - 12y ago
nickbauman 12y ago
While I disagree in particular (because it is believed the agents of the US using this torture practices acted in secret) there is an overarching logic that is sound: to the degree a society is democratic is the same degree its citizens are ultimately responsible for the actions of their government officials.
- patronagezero 12y ago
  We as a country allow whistle-blowers to be called traitors, imprisoned, character assassinated, assassinated and exiled from our country. The only people that don't or didn't know are those that wished to continue living the 'American dream' in denial.
- mcv 12y ago
  The only way to avoid being responsible for this, is to take the responsibility you have: to condemn this, and demand justice. Pay reparations to the victims of these sadists (preferably out of the pockets of the culprits, but out of the US treasury if necessary), and put the culprits behind bars. Anyone not doing that, is guilty of condoning this crime, and ensuring that it can and will happen again in the future.
zghst 12y ago
This makes no sense. The root of the problem didn't start at the voting booth, "Oh I'll check yes to torture those terrorist", or "I'm going to write my Congressmen telling them to torture some folks". In fact Congress voted to outlaaw waterboarding: http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/02/14/us-security-usa-waterboarding-idUSN1338705020080214 http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/02/14/us-security-usa-wa... (although it was vetoed by President Bush). This report will help to further clamp down on brutal interrogation techniques. It will push Congress and President Obama to resolve the issue. The CIA, in fact mislead any type of oversight over the torture programs. So instead of jumping to "we're all blame" conclusions, why don't you blame the people in charge that secured the funding for these officers to do it?
programmarchy 12y ago
The root of the problem is that the state is a monopoly on violence. What is a "citizen" supposed to do? Vote for the red master or the blue master next time? It makes no difference. The best thing a "citizen" can do is recognize the state is foundationally unethical and has no legitimate political authority and never did. [1] Once we leave behind the mysticism of state authority, perhaps we can find better ways to organize society in ways that are ethically sound. [1] http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Problem_of_Political_Authority http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Problem_of_Political_Auth...
- mcv 12y ago
  How is that going to help you? Going rogue on your own is not going to get these people in prison, or prevent that it will happen again. You need people on your side. You need a majority of Americans on your side. And once you've got that, you can vote the politicians out of office, elect some better ones, and finally see justice done. And maybe before that, you can use the threat of this happening to get the current crop of politicians to finally care about justice.
  - patronagezero 12y ago
    You keep playing their games. I'm going to get busy looking for solutions with an actual possibility of success.
    - mcv 12y ago
      You say that, but your dismissive attitude to the solution sounds like you're doing the exact opposite. Do you really honestly think you can solve the problem on your own?

> and someone needs to be held accountable. The citizens of the United States need to be held accountable. Sorry, someone has to start looking at the root of the problem.

Loughla 12y ago

I don't understand, how can you blame the citizens for this, when they were ignorant, against their will, about this? When the institution that is performing these acts out-and-out lies about the impact and severity, how can random citizens be held accountable? That honestly makes no sense to me.

patronagezero 12y ago
At best, the citizens are ignorantly complicit by lack of attention. What did the people do about MK ULTRA? Who was punished? Oh, that's right, the CIA got off with paying their victims off and no-one was held "accountable". The republic has been dead. What's left is just the populace of the most financially successful country, and those people don't want to be told how complacently evil they and their country have become. I've argued with enough people that will reject the truth up until it's completely ill-refutable, the reason being, they like their lifestyle and make-believe country.
DanBC 12y ago
Abu Ghraib was a big fucking clue that something was going terribly wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner...
trhway 12y ago
>I don't understand, how can you blame the citizens for this, when they were ignorant, against their will, about this? >When the institution that is performing these acts out-and-out lies about the impact and severity, how can random citizens be held accountable? That honestly makes no sense to me. because the institutions and individuals doing it know that they will go unpunished once the truth gets discovered. Whenever stuff like this surfaces nobody gets punished and thus the citizens/society give clear approval to the actions that have already been perpetrated and to perpetrate it in the future as long as visibility of convenient "ignorance" is maintained.
fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
Is this a democracy, or isn't it? And yeah, sure, we're all "ignorant" in the sense that we ignore everything that isn't spelled out in black and white, and then posted at eye level in our line of sight.

CWuestefeld 12y ago

Yes. We can't just keep whining "come on, guys, you really ought to stop" to our leaders. This is happening in our names, and our hands are dirty. Stopping this is our own responsibility.

Arnor 12y ago
And how shall we proceed?
- patronagezero 12y ago
  A start would be to stop looking to someone else to show you the way. What have you tried? Working in groups is what makes it so damn easy to discredit, re-brand and dilute movements. Protesting? C'mon, we're way past the useful application of protesting.
  - sp332 12y ago
    That's not 100% true. A good organizer is vital to an effective protest. http://www.thebaffler.com/blog/disruption-time/ http://www.thebaffler.com/blog/disruption-time/
- rhizome 12y ago
  The US is legally required by the Geneva Convention Against Torture, signed into US law by Ronald Reagan, to prosecute the torturers and their chain of command.
  - bdamm 12y ago
    This.
    - bdevani 12y ago
      It requires voting. and being informed. voting for publicly funded limited campaigns. and being active in the courts
  - 12y ago

nickbauman 12y ago

While I disagree in particular (because it is believed the agents of the US using this torture practices acted in secret) there is an overarching logic that is sound: to the degree a society is democratic is the same degree its citizens are ultimately responsible for the actions of their government officials.

patronagezero 12y ago
We as a country allow whistle-blowers to be called traitors, imprisoned, character assassinated, assassinated and exiled from our country. The only people that don't or didn't know are those that wished to continue living the 'American dream' in denial.
mcv 12y ago
The only way to avoid being responsible for this, is to take the responsibility you have: to condemn this, and demand justice. Pay reparations to the victims of these sadists (preferably out of the pockets of the culprits, but out of the US treasury if necessary), and put the culprits behind bars. Anyone not doing that, is guilty of condoning this crime, and ensuring that it can and will happen again in the future.

zghst 12y ago

This makes no sense. The root of the problem didn't start at the voting booth, "Oh I'll check yes to torture those terrorist", or "I'm going to write my Congressmen telling them to torture some folks". In fact Congress voted to outlaaw waterboarding: http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/02/14/us-security-usa-waterboarding-idUSN1338705020080214 http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/02/14/us-security-usa-wa... (although it was vetoed by President Bush). This report will help to further clamp down on brutal interrogation techniques. It will push Congress and President Obama to resolve the issue. The CIA, in fact mislead any type of oversight over the torture programs. So instead of jumping to "we're all blame" conclusions, why don't you blame the people in charge that secured the funding for these officers to do it?

programmarchy 12y ago

The root of the problem is that the state is a monopoly on violence. What is a "citizen" supposed to do? Vote for the red master or the blue master next time? It makes no difference. The best thing a "citizen" can do is recognize the state is foundationally unethical and has no legitimate political authority and never did. [1] Once we leave behind the mysticism of state authority, perhaps we can find better ways to organize society in ways that are ethically sound. [1] http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Problem_of_Political_Authority http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Problem_of_Political_Auth...

mcv 12y ago
How is that going to help you? Going rogue on your own is not going to get these people in prison, or prevent that it will happen again. You need people on your side. You need a majority of Americans on your side. And once you've got that, you can vote the politicians out of office, elect some better ones, and finally see justice done. And maybe before that, you can use the threat of this happening to get the current crop of politicians to finally care about justice.
- patronagezero 12y ago
  You keep playing their games. I'm going to get busy looking for solutions with an actual possibility of success.
  - mcv 12y ago
    You say that, but your dismissive attitude to the solution sounds like you're doing the exact opposite. Do you really honestly think you can solve the problem on your own?