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> I did a code challenge that involved ranking soccer teams, and while going over the code a developer at the company asked me if I needed the rules of the gam

by _RPM 12y ago

> I did a code challenge that involved ranking soccer teams, and while going over the code a developer at the company asked me if I needed the rules of the game explained to me. While it's a good thing to make sure the candidate understands what the problem is, companies need to be aware that these things carry extra cultural baggage and asking a female candidate if they understand a basic sports rule (or any other male dominated theme) comes across as belittling and sexist. As a male, I don't even know the rules of soccer, so I would have gladly wanted to hear the rules of the game so I could implement the solution correctly.

atmosx 12y ago
I think too that there's nothing sexist about being explained the rules of soccer. Also I get the feeling that the OP is a little too over her head. At some point I thought it was Ken Thompson writing the blog post. Anyway, I'm glad that turned out good for her, also some stats are interesting (2 responses out of 10 online approaches is a good number IMHO). I'm considering pursuing a remote dev career but I'm writing only ruby code right now, have some personal projects which I need to polish and started learning JavaScript. I would be interested to read more stories on the same topic but with much less verbosity.
xKingfisher 12y ago
Yeah, I know I would want the rules explained to me. Personally, I think that it is a positive that an interviewer doesn't assume any extraneous knowledge on the candidate's part, since it prevents the candidate being in a position where they may feel anxious or embarrassed about asking for help or clarification, and lets them focus on demonstrating the coding abilities. It also presents a way to clear up any ambiguities right at the start. Replace soccer with something like curling, or analyzing corn yields, or whatever obscure topic an interviewer wants to use to frame a question, and the interviewer's question comes across as perfectly valid thing to ask.
tomlock 12y ago
Unfortunately, our culture generally views sport as a male domain. While you and I are probably aware that there's nothing intrinsically "male" about sport, it can feel a little weird for someone to treat you as if your understanding is aligned with the gendered assumption. Anyone, if they don't understand the rules of the game, could still ask what they are. Would you feel weird if someone assumed you knew the rules because you were a man? How could you tell if they assumed that because you were a man, or because of some other reason? I think the point the developer is trying to make is that all this could be avoided by using another context in the challenge. Not using a different challenge is at least somewhat displaying that they didn't think how this situation might make someone feel.
- Perdition 12y ago
  >Not using a different challenge Like what? Even something like maths can be claimed to be "viewed generally as a male domain". And once you start accounting for ethnicity and social background I think you would find it incredibly difficult to come up with something that had no possibly offensive cultural baggage. Actually, maybe the challenge could be to design a challenge that was neutral. P.S. Considering soccer's limited popularity in the US I doubt most candidates would know the rules.
  - tomlock 12y ago
    We may very well find it very difficult to come up with something that has no possibly offensive cultural baggage. Do you think soccer was one where someone made even an attempt to mitigate that baggage?
    - davesnothere 12y ago
      I agree with the author that it would be better to have alternative coding challenges, even though interest in soccer is obviously not a male-only thing.
    - Perdition 12y ago
      Possibly, as soccer isn't exactly a premier sport in the US. If it was American football, baseball, or basketball (with which the average American male is more familiar) I think the authors point would be stronger. I could make an argument that using a sport which has massive popularity outside Western European culture is a sign that the interviewer was thinking about diversity. Sports are good candidates for these challenges as they have reasonably complex rule, so it isn't necessarily that the interviewer was just selecting something they liked.
- DanBC 12y ago
  Or the could the company frame the help-giving to make it clear that this is offered to everyone?
  - 12y ago
butwhy 12y ago
So.. the company asks a candidate if they understand the game, and just because the author of this post is female, she wildly speculates that they must only be asking her because she is female. This is ludicrous. Sounds like a feminist.
- tomlock 12y ago
  Whether you like it or not people make assumptions about other people based on their gender. Companies that are sensitive to that fact are less likely to pose code challenges that align with a common assumption about gender, which aligns with the gender of the majority of developers. They are also less likely to ask questions that also reflect that assumption. For this developer, this code challenge was a red flag.
  - butwhy 12y ago
    There is absolutely no basis for that claim in this particular case. I'd expect them to ask all candidates if they understand the scenario, regardless of sex. But guess what? We have absolutely no idea because there is no data on it. As such, it is totally unjustified to call an employer "belittling and sexist" purely because they asked a single candidate if they understood something related to their code challenge.
    - tomlock 12y ago
      It is quite interesting to me that you say we don't know what we'd expect the interviewers to do in this scenario. The applicant didn't either (and they state that), and in this case, the interviewer's lack of knowledge about the applicant's possible perceptions betrayed a lack of sensitivity to such topics. This was a red flag.
- rurounijones 12y ago
  > she wildly speculates that they must only be asking her because she is female Not sure what article you were reading but all she doesn't say anything of the sort. She simply points out that companies need to realize some questions may come with extra cultural baggage which could be misinterpreted.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
gedrap 12y ago
Totally agree. There's absolutely nothing sexist about it at all. I am male and there loads of sports I have no idea about the rules. Now, let's say I stumble across this bit before I interview her. Red flag: tends to treat things as sexist when they clearly are not. Meaning a potential law suit or what not for nothing. Sorry, too big of a liability.
- jarek 12y ago
  > Now, let's say I stumble across this bit before I interview her. Red flag: tends to treat things as sexist when they clearly are not. Meaning a potential law suit or what not for nothing. Sorry, too big of a liability. Eh, that works both ways. "Red flag: assumes I will sue the company based on one blog post they misunderstood. Meaning a potentially shitty company afraid of a lawsuit exposing their shittyness. Sorry, too big of a risk." Congrats! You're not a match. I doubt either of you will spill many tears.
uptownJimmy 12y ago
I'm male and pretty athletic, and I would definitely need the rules of soccer explained to me. That game was not played where I grew up.
- philliphaydon 12y ago
  I played soccer as a kid a local team, and I would need the rules explained to me 15 years later...
anullptr 12y ago
100% agree. It's nothing to so with sex. If they were implementing rules for the TV game show Countdown would there be an issue there? I doubt it. You shouldn't have to be scared of checking if someone is familiar and briefed on the subject matter.

by _RPM 12y ago

atmosx 12y ago

I think too that there's nothing sexist about being explained the rules of soccer. Also I get the feeling that the OP is a little too over her head. At some point I thought it was Ken Thompson writing the blog post. Anyway, I'm glad that turned out good for her, also some stats are interesting (2 responses out of 10 online approaches is a good number IMHO). I'm considering pursuing a remote dev career but I'm writing only ruby code right now, have some personal projects which I need to polish and started learning JavaScript. I would be interested to read more stories on the same topic but with much less verbosity.

xKingfisher 12y ago

Yeah, I know I would want the rules explained to me. Personally, I think that it is a positive that an interviewer doesn't assume any extraneous knowledge on the candidate's part, since it prevents the candidate being in a position where they may feel anxious or embarrassed about asking for help or clarification, and lets them focus on demonstrating the coding abilities. It also presents a way to clear up any ambiguities right at the start. Replace soccer with something like curling, or analyzing corn yields, or whatever obscure topic an interviewer wants to use to frame a question, and the interviewer's question comes across as perfectly valid thing to ask.

tomlock 12y ago

Unfortunately, our culture generally views sport as a male domain. While you and I are probably aware that there's nothing intrinsically "male" about sport, it can feel a little weird for someone to treat you as if your understanding is aligned with the gendered assumption. Anyone, if they don't understand the rules of the game, could still ask what they are. Would you feel weird if someone assumed you knew the rules because you were a man? How could you tell if they assumed that because you were a man, or because of some other reason? I think the point the developer is trying to make is that all this could be avoided by using another context in the challenge. Not using a different challenge is at least somewhat displaying that they didn't think how this situation might make someone feel.

Perdition 12y ago
>Not using a different challenge Like what? Even something like maths can be claimed to be "viewed generally as a male domain". And once you start accounting for ethnicity and social background I think you would find it incredibly difficult to come up with something that had no possibly offensive cultural baggage. Actually, maybe the challenge could be to design a challenge that was neutral. P.S. Considering soccer's limited popularity in the US I doubt most candidates would know the rules.
- tomlock 12y ago
  We may very well find it very difficult to come up with something that has no possibly offensive cultural baggage. Do you think soccer was one where someone made even an attempt to mitigate that baggage?
  - davesnothere 12y ago
    I agree with the author that it would be better to have alternative coding challenges, even though interest in soccer is obviously not a male-only thing.
  - Perdition 12y ago
    Possibly, as soccer isn't exactly a premier sport in the US. If it was American football, baseball, or basketball (with which the average American male is more familiar) I think the authors point would be stronger. I could make an argument that using a sport which has massive popularity outside Western European culture is a sign that the interviewer was thinking about diversity. Sports are good candidates for these challenges as they have reasonably complex rule, so it isn't necessarily that the interviewer was just selecting something they liked.
DanBC 12y ago
Or the could the company frame the help-giving to make it clear that this is offered to everyone?
- 12y ago

butwhy 12y ago

So.. the company asks a candidate if they understand the game, and just because the author of this post is female, she wildly speculates that they must only be asking her because she is female. This is ludicrous. Sounds like a feminist.

tomlock 12y ago
Whether you like it or not people make assumptions about other people based on their gender. Companies that are sensitive to that fact are less likely to pose code challenges that align with a common assumption about gender, which aligns with the gender of the majority of developers. They are also less likely to ask questions that also reflect that assumption. For this developer, this code challenge was a red flag.
- butwhy 12y ago
  There is absolutely no basis for that claim in this particular case. I'd expect them to ask all candidates if they understand the scenario, regardless of sex. But guess what? We have absolutely no idea because there is no data on it. As such, it is totally unjustified to call an employer "belittling and sexist" purely because they asked a single candidate if they understood something related to their code challenge.
  - tomlock 12y ago
    It is quite interesting to me that you say we don't know what we'd expect the interviewers to do in this scenario. The applicant didn't either (and they state that), and in this case, the interviewer's lack of knowledge about the applicant's possible perceptions betrayed a lack of sensitivity to such topics. This was a red flag.
rurounijones 12y ago
> she wildly speculates that they must only be asking her because she is female Not sure what article you were reading but all she doesn't say anything of the sort. She simply points out that companies need to realize some questions may come with extra cultural baggage which could be misinterpreted.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

gedrap 12y ago

Totally agree. There's absolutely nothing sexist about it at all. I am male and there loads of sports I have no idea about the rules. Now, let's say I stumble across this bit before I interview her. Red flag: tends to treat things as sexist when they clearly are not. Meaning a potential law suit or what not for nothing. Sorry, too big of a liability.

jarek 12y ago
> Now, let's say I stumble across this bit before I interview her. Red flag: tends to treat things as sexist when they clearly are not. Meaning a potential law suit or what not for nothing. Sorry, too big of a liability. Eh, that works both ways. "Red flag: assumes I will sue the company based on one blog post they misunderstood. Meaning a potentially shitty company afraid of a lawsuit exposing their shittyness. Sorry, too big of a risk." Congrats! You're not a match. I doubt either of you will spill many tears.

uptownJimmy 12y ago

I'm male and pretty athletic, and I would definitely need the rules of soccer explained to me. That game was not played where I grew up.

philliphaydon 12y ago
I played soccer as a kid a local team, and I would need the rules explained to me 15 years later...

anullptr 12y ago

100% agree. It's nothing to so with sex. If they were implementing rules for the TV game show Countdown would there be an issue there? I doubt it. You shouldn't have to be scared of checking if someone is familiar and briefed on the subject matter.