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After 30 years of running, I can attest to the irreversible damage caused to knees, shins, and other joints and ligaments due to running on paved and other man

After 30 years of running, I can attest to the irreversible damage caused to knees, shins, and other joints and ligaments due to running on paved and other man made surfaces. A good alternative as you get up in years is swimming and/or cycling or recumbent biking.

chatmasta 12y ago
I ran 4 years of D1 cross country. Can confirm. The oft-repeated trope is "concrete is 12x harder than soft surface grass." Not sure how true that is or how the physics work, but stay away from roads. Run on the dirt on the side of them.
- dazc 12y ago
  And also avoid running downhill.
  - elwell 12y ago
    Yes, running uphill is a better workout and it feels better on the knees.
  - redgrange 12y ago
    why? downhills are free.
    - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
      Not on your knees. Downhill running (and hiking) is also more anaerobic (stopping your self from falling) than aerobic (working to move up).
      - chatmasta 12y ago
        If you're stopping yourself from falling when running downhill, you're doing it wrong. You should be "leaning into" the hill, which is counterintuitive and feels like you're going to fall, but is way better for your knees and also faster than stopping yourself.
        seanmcdirmid 12y ago
        That only works for some grades. The grades in the Bay Area are pretty steep. If you leaned into the downward slope, you would be on your face in a few seconds.
        chatmasta 12y ago
        That's why you should only run down Lombard Street!
      - cha5e 12y ago
        You may have just misspoken but it'd be almost impossible to get any anaerobic training out of downhill running. You might be doing some muscle strengthening though.
        seanmcdirmid 12y ago
        You can definitely get an anaerobic workout from downhill hiking. Running on pavement not so much, but you do use muscles to keep from falling down.
- acadien 12y ago
  Do you (or anybody) have evidence to support this? Genuinely curious since everything I've read shows that surface doesn't matter. I understand this result is counter-intuitive but I was under the impression its a well documented result.
  - chatmasta 12y ago
    Nothing beyond personal experience and knowing my own body. After you run every day for 8 years of your life you tend to notice little differences in how you feel day-to-day. For example, it's not a coincidence that after three months in Houston running on only pavement, I had far more ankle/knee/plantar pains than after a season of running on trails. Also, trails have the added benefit of activating a greater diversity of muscles in your feet, because you need to "dance around the roots."
- elwell 12y ago
  I would rather run on a level surface even if it is harder. You can hurt your knee or ankle rather quickly running through some fields; but that's part of the experience I guess.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - cha5e 12y ago
    Running on an uneven running surface isn't bad for you at all. Most people run primarily on the roads - so if they encounter a long path with uneven terrain - the ancillary muscles that control stabilization generally tire more quickly. It's all about transitioning slowly and letting the muscles, that haven't been used very often, strengthen.
beaumartinez 12y ago
I've always heard a lot of this is due to improper running technique, since shoe technology shifted to a heavily-padded heel. This in turn made people more likely to land on the heel, which sends the shock right up the leg, into the knee. Barefoot running, and less padded shoes, promote landing on the balls of your feet (as otherwise it's incredibly painful!). Landing on the balls of your feet allows your foot to reduce the force that gets shot up the leg.
- elwell 12y ago
  Running barefoot on pavement in the city doesn't work very well. Every time I try it for a significant journey, I can barely walk for a week due to blisters and small glass fragments. Also, people, rightly, stare at me like I'm insane.
  - hawkice 12y ago
    My first attempt at barefoot running on cement was a 5k -- the blisters are killer. Couldn't even stand without fairly extreme pain. I think the notion is to work your way up a lot slower than I did, but I haven't made the same attempt again.
  - meritt 12y ago
    Just get some "barefoot" shoes. I use merrell trail glove.
    - t4ngent 12y ago
      Agreed, merrell trail gloves are great shoes. I run 60-70km per week in them. I highly recommend barefoot style shoes in general, but you do have to acclimate to them slowly while you build up your foot strength. After building foot strength in 'barefoot' shoes, I can now run much faster in any kind of shoe.
      - uberalex 12y ago
        How do they compare to Vibrams? I tried to get a pair of KSO or Bikila last time I was in the USA, but all the shops have stopped stocking them since the company settled a lawsuit.
uberalex 12y ago
All sports have complications. Swimmers can get shoulder issues and tendinitis (http://physioworks.com.au/Injuries-Conditions/Activities/swimming-injuries http://physioworks.com.au/Injuries-Conditions/Activities/swi...). Cyclists can suffer overuse injury, but also seem at risk of getting mown down by traffic (admittedly a general risk, but it seems a higher one for regular bike users) http://physioworks.com.au/Injuries-Conditions/Activities/cycling_tips http://physioworks.com.au/Injuries-Conditions/Activities/cyc... I suspect it's a matter of cross-training, of trying to do some compensating weight training, and luck.
- perlpimp 12y ago
  I run and visit the gym without gym, gym gives me great posture. Working at the desk most of the day it is hard to keep muscles on your back to support yourself while running at least it is the case for me. Everyone has different diet, genetics...
djtriptych 12y ago
I ran pain-free for years on concrete in vibram toe shoes. I ended up convincing myself that one needs to re-learn how to run, but that it is indeed possible to run even on hard surfaces if your technique is efficient enough. edit: An excellent video showing the subtleties of perfect form: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTMgIViinuQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTMgIViinuQ
jsankey 12y ago
It's not clear that running makes joint problems any more likely, in general, see: http://www.npr.org/2011/03/28/134861448/put-those-shoes-on-running-wont-kill-your-knees http://www.npr.org/2011/03/28/134861448/put-those-shoes-on-r... For example, keeping joints active with weight bearing exercise reduces the likelihood of developing arthritis. As other comments have mentioned, a common problem is overtraining, and especially starting out too fast. Patience is required to build up the strength and technique required to maximise benefits while minimising the risk of injury.
huherto 12y ago
I got this when I got hurt. I love it. http://www.elliptigo.com/ http://www.elliptigo.com/

chatmasta 12y ago

I ran 4 years of D1 cross country. Can confirm. The oft-repeated trope is "concrete is 12x harder than soft surface grass." Not sure how true that is or how the physics work, but stay away from roads. Run on the dirt on the side of them.

dazc 12y ago
And also avoid running downhill.
- elwell 12y ago
  Yes, running uphill is a better workout and it feels better on the knees.
- redgrange 12y ago
  why? downhills are free.
  - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
    Not on your knees. Downhill running (and hiking) is also more anaerobic (stopping your self from falling) than aerobic (working to move up).
    - chatmasta 12y ago
      If you're stopping yourself from falling when running downhill, you're doing it wrong. You should be "leaning into" the hill, which is counterintuitive and feels like you're going to fall, but is way better for your knees and also faster than stopping yourself.
      - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
        That only works for some grades. The grades in the Bay Area are pretty steep. If you leaned into the downward slope, you would be on your face in a few seconds.
        chatmasta 12y ago
        That's why you should only run down Lombard Street!
    - cha5e 12y ago
      You may have just misspoken but it'd be almost impossible to get any anaerobic training out of downhill running. You might be doing some muscle strengthening though.
      - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
        You can definitely get an anaerobic workout from downhill hiking. Running on pavement not so much, but you do use muscles to keep from falling down.
acadien 12y ago
Do you (or anybody) have evidence to support this? Genuinely curious since everything I've read shows that surface doesn't matter. I understand this result is counter-intuitive but I was under the impression its a well documented result.
- chatmasta 12y ago
  Nothing beyond personal experience and knowing my own body. After you run every day for 8 years of your life you tend to notice little differences in how you feel day-to-day. For example, it's not a coincidence that after three months in Houston running on only pavement, I had far more ankle/knee/plantar pains than after a season of running on trails. Also, trails have the added benefit of activating a greater diversity of muscles in your feet, because you need to "dance around the roots."
elwell 12y ago
I would rather run on a level surface even if it is harder. You can hurt your knee or ankle rather quickly running through some fields; but that's part of the experience I guess.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- cha5e 12y ago
  Running on an uneven running surface isn't bad for you at all. Most people run primarily on the roads - so if they encounter a long path with uneven terrain - the ancillary muscles that control stabilization generally tire more quickly. It's all about transitioning slowly and letting the muscles, that haven't been used very often, strengthen.

beaumartinez 12y ago

I've always heard a lot of this is due to improper running technique, since shoe technology shifted to a heavily-padded heel. This in turn made people more likely to land on the heel, which sends the shock right up the leg, into the knee. Barefoot running, and less padded shoes, promote landing on the balls of your feet (as otherwise it's incredibly painful!). Landing on the balls of your feet allows your foot to reduce the force that gets shot up the leg.

elwell 12y ago
Running barefoot on pavement in the city doesn't work very well. Every time I try it for a significant journey, I can barely walk for a week due to blisters and small glass fragments. Also, people, rightly, stare at me like I'm insane.
- hawkice 12y ago
  My first attempt at barefoot running on cement was a 5k -- the blisters are killer. Couldn't even stand without fairly extreme pain. I think the notion is to work your way up a lot slower than I did, but I haven't made the same attempt again.
- meritt 12y ago
  Just get some "barefoot" shoes. I use merrell trail glove.
  - t4ngent 12y ago
    Agreed, merrell trail gloves are great shoes. I run 60-70km per week in them. I highly recommend barefoot style shoes in general, but you do have to acclimate to them slowly while you build up your foot strength. After building foot strength in 'barefoot' shoes, I can now run much faster in any kind of shoe.
    - uberalex 12y ago
      How do they compare to Vibrams? I tried to get a pair of KSO or Bikila last time I was in the USA, but all the shops have stopped stocking them since the company settled a lawsuit.

uberalex 12y ago

All sports have complications. Swimmers can get shoulder issues and tendinitis (http://physioworks.com.au/Injuries-Conditions/Activities/swimming-injuries http://physioworks.com.au/Injuries-Conditions/Activities/swi...). Cyclists can suffer overuse injury, but also seem at risk of getting mown down by traffic (admittedly a general risk, but it seems a higher one for regular bike users) http://physioworks.com.au/Injuries-Conditions/Activities/cycling_tips http://physioworks.com.au/Injuries-Conditions/Activities/cyc... I suspect it's a matter of cross-training, of trying to do some compensating weight training, and luck.

perlpimp 12y ago
I run and visit the gym without gym, gym gives me great posture. Working at the desk most of the day it is hard to keep muscles on your back to support yourself while running at least it is the case for me. Everyone has different diet, genetics...

djtriptych 12y ago

I ran pain-free for years on concrete in vibram toe shoes. I ended up convincing myself that one needs to re-learn how to run, but that it is indeed possible to run even on hard surfaces if your technique is efficient enough. edit: An excellent video showing the subtleties of perfect form: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTMgIViinuQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTMgIViinuQ

jsankey 12y ago

It's not clear that running makes joint problems any more likely, in general, see: http://www.npr.org/2011/03/28/134861448/put-those-shoes-on-running-wont-kill-your-knees http://www.npr.org/2011/03/28/134861448/put-those-shoes-on-r... For example, keeping joints active with weight bearing exercise reduces the likelihood of developing arthritis. As other comments have mentioned, a common problem is overtraining, and especially starting out too fast. Patience is required to build up the strength and technique required to maximise benefits while minimising the risk of injury.

huherto 12y ago

I got this when I got hurt. I love it. http://www.elliptigo.com/ http://www.elliptigo.com/