10 ms·

Prison book ban ruled unlawful by High Court

101 points by danseagrave 12y ago

Oletros 12y ago
I'm glad about that overturn of the ban
arethuza 12y ago
I wonder if there are any schemes making e-book readers available in prisons - no danger of smuggling in drugs in a stream of bytes!
- oliciv 12y ago
  A move that would, no doubt, be reported in the tabloid news as "Evil prisoners given luxury top of the range tablets"
  - Fuxy 12y ago
    Since when is a cheap e-book reader a top of the range tablet. It's like calling a radio a high tech electronic device. But i get where your coming from journalists like to blow everything out of proportion.
    - zaroth 12y ago
      There's a great article about prison radios and MP3 players, and a particular model of Sony FM receiver that is like 30 years old but incredibly popular in prisons due to battery life or something... Gotta track that down.
      - ceejayoz 12y ago
        http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/the-ipod-of-prison http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/the-ipod-of-prison
        andyjohnson0 12y ago
        This was discussed earlier this year on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7073242 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7073242
    - aragot 12y ago
      Devices need to be approved for prison use. 3G but no autoupgrades, or appstore but no external communication, sometimes the cover must be transparent. Probably no competition in that sector, therefore they can charge whatever they decide. Hence it's not "cheap e-book reader, top of the range tablet", but "expensive e-book device, bottom of the range reader", if you follow me.
- bainsfather 12y ago
  I am told that in high security prisons, you can own music CDs. BUT you must buy them from the prison's approved seller (assuming that the CD you want is in their catalog). This is apparently to stop data being smuggled in/out of the prison. I doubt they will be allowing ebooks and ebook readers anytime soon.
- anigbrowl 12y ago
  Funny you should ask. This company aims to provide modified iPads to prisons and jails. SF county has signed onto the scheme: http://apdscorporate.com/ http://apdscorporate.com/ This company already has a heavily locked-down tablet and provides a way for relatives to buy music for or send email or donate money to prisoners: http://blog.jpay.com/mini-tablet-for-prisons-now-available-in-louisiana-and-virginia/ http://blog.jpay.com/mini-tablet-for-prisons-now-available-i... Victims' rights groups are not very happy about this: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/08/17/tabletsforinmates/2651727/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/08/17/tablets... EDIT: I mentioned a scheme in Ohio, but associated it with the wrong link. That state uses Jpay, not the APDS system.
  - Retra 12y ago
    Surely they could go with something cheaper than iPads?
    - anigbrowl 12y ago
      They're probably not using the latest models or have some deal with Apple similar to an education discount. I don't know what the business logic is.
Shivetya 12y ago
The one issue brought up which I think it a legitimate concern is, how do you insure the book is not used for improper purposes. Those would be but not limited to, concealment of prohibited objects, drugs, and messages? You can screen for some, but I would expect all parcels to have some limited form of search. I would tend to think a better option would be to fix the availability of library services to prisoners, perhaps even only allowing access to the delivered books in a library setting; books are kept by the system in the library for the prisoners. I understand that idea that reading is fundamental, but controlling what is in their environment is a big part of maintaining a safe and secure environment.
- ceejayoz 12y ago
  Nothing I'm reading here says they've been banned from inspecting the books. No reason they can't be scanned, shaken out, and flipped through.
- bainsfather 12y ago
  In the uk, prisoners get sent other parcels, they of course are screened. No real reason for not allowing books. This ban was just the prisons minister playing to the tabloid press. "a better option would be to fix the availability of library services to prisoners" - alas, this is not even a bad joke. In e.g. high security prisons, you might get to visit the library once every 4 weeks. If (or these days, more often than not when) there are staff shortages, supervision of prisoners' library visits is among the first things cut - in which case, you might get to visit again in 4 weeks time, maybe. Source: 2nd hand info from talking to someone who works in a prison.
  - kahirsch 12y ago
    The first sentence of the article is "Under the current rules prisoners are prevented from receiving parcels unless they have 'exceptional circumstances', such as a medical condition."
    - bainsfather 12y ago
mabbo 12y ago
I've said it before, and I'll keep saying it: if the purpose of prison is to rehabilitate people, then we're going about it in a very strange way. Lock people away in a cell for a decade, deny them a lot of basic human rights (like books) then when they're good and messed up in the head from it, let them lose on the public. If they re-offend, well, that's clearly a sign that they are just a bad person. Best lock them up again.
- ceejayoz 12y ago
  The Governor of New York proposed giving prisoners in essence a community college education while incarcerated. Outcry from the public and lawmakers made him shelve the concept, despite studies showing massive drops in recidivism from such things.
  - SteveGerencser 12y ago
    As they should. If you are going to give away a college education it should probably start with the people not in prison and even earlier before they begin to commit crimes. I understand the desire to rehabilitate people, but when those in prison have more services and resources handed to them than the general population gets then there is a serious problem. If we started earlier in the education process and young students knew that they would be supported all the way through college / trade school / whatever, they would be far less likely to give up early thinking that they could never 'afford' to go to school so why bother.
    - Retra 12y ago
      Maybe we shouldn't give prisoners free room, board, and healthcare over the public while we're at it.
      - lotsofmangos 12y ago
        There are already some attempts to charge those in custody for room, board and medical procedures, even going as far as trying to charge for involuntary procedures involved in searches. Or police requiring $3,000 for property damage for getting blood on their uniforms after beating up a guy with a different middle name as who they were looking for. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/12/us/in-riverside-california-a-plan-to-charge-inmates.html http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/12/us/in-riverside-california... http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/01/14/new-mexico-man-given-forced-colonoscopy-by-cops-wins-16-million-settlement http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/01/14/new-mexico-ma... http://www.elpasotimes.com/latestnews/ci_26100843/aclu-woman-settles-suit-umc-over-cavity-search http://www.elpasotimes.com/latestnews/ci_26100843/aclu-woman... http://www.npr.org/news/documents/2014/DAVISINF.PDF http://www.npr.org/news/documents/2014/DAVISINF.PDF
KaiserPro 12y ago
And ofcourse Mr Grayling has done his best to destroy Judicial reviews that highlight this kind of problem. Basically if you want to challenge a law, a judicial review is the only way you can go about it (going through the political process, writing to an MP and the like leaves you open to the whim of the press and "public opinion") http://www.civilsociety.co.uk/governance/news/content/18682/charities_face_greater_judicial_review_costs_after_commons_vote http://www.civilsociety.co.uk/governance/news/content/18682/... If this law goes through only those with significant amount of cash can ever challenge illegal laws. Combine that with the changes to legal aid, mean that only the rich will be able to attain justice.
- cmdkeen 12y ago
  At what point has the judicial review become merely the means for judges to disagree with government policy? This wasn't a law change, this was a change to an existing policy about what prisoners could receive in parcels. Judicial review seems to have become an all too regular occurrence used by people who don't like what a particular government is doing.
  - KaiserPro 12y ago
    But the point of british law is that no one is above it. A precedence set by the magna carta. (which has now been superseded apart from two clauses.) This means that if the government changes policy, and that policy change is incompatible with the law, it must be changed. This is the mecanism that would stop the government from passing a statutory instrument(a law that requires no vote in parliament) to allow the Treasury to take assets without due process (something that was protected by the magna carta, but was recently repealed) How ever for a law to be challenged, a judicial review must be triggered.
    - cmdkeen 12y ago
      Except many judicial reviews aren't about the legality of the decision, merely the way the decision has been made. "Judicial review is a type of court proceeding in which a judge reviews the lawfulness of a decision or action made by a public body. In other words, judicial reviews are a challenge to the way in which a decision has been made, rather than the rights and wrongs of the conclusion reached. It is not really concerned with the conclusions of that process and whether those were 'right', as long as the right procedures have been followed. The court will not substitute what it thinks is the 'correct' decision." [http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/nov/19/judicial-review-statistics http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/nov/19/judicia...]

101 points by danseagrave 12y ago

I'm glad about that overturn of the ban

I wonder if there are any schemes making e-book readers available in prisons - no danger of smuggling in drugs in a stream of bytes!

oliciv 12y ago
A move that would, no doubt, be reported in the tabloid news as "Evil prisoners given luxury top of the range tablets"
- Fuxy 12y ago
  Since when is a cheap e-book reader a top of the range tablet. It's like calling a radio a high tech electronic device. But i get where your coming from journalists like to blow everything out of proportion.
  - zaroth 12y ago
    There's a great article about prison radios and MP3 players, and a particular model of Sony FM receiver that is like 30 years old but incredibly popular in prisons due to battery life or something... Gotta track that down.
    - ceejayoz 12y ago
      http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/the-ipod-of-prison http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/the-ipod-of-prison
      - andyjohnson0 12y ago
        This was discussed earlier this year on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7073242 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7073242
  - aragot 12y ago
    Devices need to be approved for prison use. 3G but no autoupgrades, or appstore but no external communication, sometimes the cover must be transparent. Probably no competition in that sector, therefore they can charge whatever they decide. Hence it's not "cheap e-book reader, top of the range tablet", but "expensive e-book device, bottom of the range reader", if you follow me.
bainsfather 12y ago
I am told that in high security prisons, you can own music CDs. BUT you must buy them from the prison's approved seller (assuming that the CD you want is in their catalog). This is apparently to stop data being smuggled in/out of the prison. I doubt they will be allowing ebooks and ebook readers anytime soon.
anigbrowl 12y ago
Funny you should ask. This company aims to provide modified iPads to prisons and jails. SF county has signed onto the scheme: http://apdscorporate.com/ http://apdscorporate.com/ This company already has a heavily locked-down tablet and provides a way for relatives to buy music for or send email or donate money to prisoners: http://blog.jpay.com/mini-tablet-for-prisons-now-available-in-louisiana-and-virginia/ http://blog.jpay.com/mini-tablet-for-prisons-now-available-i... Victims' rights groups are not very happy about this: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/08/17/tabletsforinmates/2651727/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/08/17/tablets... EDIT: I mentioned a scheme in Ohio, but associated it with the wrong link. That state uses Jpay, not the APDS system.
- Retra 12y ago
  Surely they could go with something cheaper than iPads?
  - anigbrowl 12y ago
    They're probably not using the latest models or have some deal with Apple similar to an education discount. I don't know what the business logic is.

Shivetya 12y ago

The one issue brought up which I think it a legitimate concern is, how do you insure the book is not used for improper purposes. Those would be but not limited to, concealment of prohibited objects, drugs, and messages? You can screen for some, but I would expect all parcels to have some limited form of search. I would tend to think a better option would be to fix the availability of library services to prisoners, perhaps even only allowing access to the delivered books in a library setting; books are kept by the system in the library for the prisoners. I understand that idea that reading is fundamental, but controlling what is in their environment is a big part of maintaining a safe and secure environment.

ceejayoz 12y ago
Nothing I'm reading here says they've been banned from inspecting the books. No reason they can't be scanned, shaken out, and flipped through.
bainsfather 12y ago
In the uk, prisoners get sent other parcels, they of course are screened. No real reason for not allowing books. This ban was just the prisons minister playing to the tabloid press. "a better option would be to fix the availability of library services to prisoners" - alas, this is not even a bad joke. In e.g. high security prisons, you might get to visit the library once every 4 weeks. If (or these days, more often than not when) there are staff shortages, supervision of prisoners' library visits is among the first things cut - in which case, you might get to visit again in 4 weeks time, maybe. Source: 2nd hand info from talking to someone who works in a prison.
- kahirsch 12y ago
  The first sentence of the article is "Under the current rules prisoners are prevented from receiving parcels unless they have 'exceptional circumstances', such as a medical condition."
  - bainsfather 12y ago

mabbo 12y ago

I've said it before, and I'll keep saying it: if the purpose of prison is to rehabilitate people, then we're going about it in a very strange way. Lock people away in a cell for a decade, deny them a lot of basic human rights (like books) then when they're good and messed up in the head from it, let them lose on the public. If they re-offend, well, that's clearly a sign that they are just a bad person. Best lock them up again.

ceejayoz 12y ago
The Governor of New York proposed giving prisoners in essence a community college education while incarcerated. Outcry from the public and lawmakers made him shelve the concept, despite studies showing massive drops in recidivism from such things.
- SteveGerencser 12y ago
  As they should. If you are going to give away a college education it should probably start with the people not in prison and even earlier before they begin to commit crimes. I understand the desire to rehabilitate people, but when those in prison have more services and resources handed to them than the general population gets then there is a serious problem. If we started earlier in the education process and young students knew that they would be supported all the way through college / trade school / whatever, they would be far less likely to give up early thinking that they could never 'afford' to go to school so why bother.
  - Retra 12y ago
    Maybe we shouldn't give prisoners free room, board, and healthcare over the public while we're at it.
    - lotsofmangos 12y ago
      There are already some attempts to charge those in custody for room, board and medical procedures, even going as far as trying to charge for involuntary procedures involved in searches. Or police requiring $3,000 for property damage for getting blood on their uniforms after beating up a guy with a different middle name as who they were looking for. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/12/us/in-riverside-california-a-plan-to-charge-inmates.html http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/12/us/in-riverside-california... http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/01/14/new-mexico-man-given-forced-colonoscopy-by-cops-wins-16-million-settlement http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/01/14/new-mexico-ma... http://www.elpasotimes.com/latestnews/ci_26100843/aclu-woman-settles-suit-umc-over-cavity-search http://www.elpasotimes.com/latestnews/ci_26100843/aclu-woman... http://www.npr.org/news/documents/2014/DAVISINF.PDF http://www.npr.org/news/documents/2014/DAVISINF.PDF

KaiserPro 12y ago

And ofcourse Mr Grayling has done his best to destroy Judicial reviews that highlight this kind of problem. Basically if you want to challenge a law, a judicial review is the only way you can go about it (going through the political process, writing to an MP and the like leaves you open to the whim of the press and "public opinion") http://www.civilsociety.co.uk/governance/news/content/18682/charities_face_greater_judicial_review_costs_after_commons_vote http://www.civilsociety.co.uk/governance/news/content/18682/... If this law goes through only those with significant amount of cash can ever challenge illegal laws. Combine that with the changes to legal aid, mean that only the rich will be able to attain justice.

cmdkeen 12y ago
At what point has the judicial review become merely the means for judges to disagree with government policy? This wasn't a law change, this was a change to an existing policy about what prisoners could receive in parcels. Judicial review seems to have become an all too regular occurrence used by people who don't like what a particular government is doing.
- KaiserPro 12y ago
  But the point of british law is that no one is above it. A precedence set by the magna carta. (which has now been superseded apart from two clauses.) This means that if the government changes policy, and that policy change is incompatible with the law, it must be changed. This is the mecanism that would stop the government from passing a statutory instrument(a law that requires no vote in parliament) to allow the Treasury to take assets without due process (something that was protected by the magna carta, but was recently repealed) How ever for a law to be challenged, a judicial review must be triggered.
  - cmdkeen 12y ago
    Except many judicial reviews aren't about the legality of the decision, merely the way the decision has been made. "Judicial review is a type of court proceeding in which a judge reviews the lawfulness of a decision or action made by a public body. In other words, judicial reviews are a challenge to the way in which a decision has been made, rather than the rights and wrongs of the conclusion reached. It is not really concerned with the conclusions of that process and whether those were 'right', as long as the right procedures have been followed. The court will not substitute what it thinks is the 'correct' decision." [http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/nov/19/judicial-review-statistics http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/nov/19/judicia...]