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It sure looks like Woz is holding solder with his mouth in the video. A lot more brave than I am, even if it is lead free. Maybe it is a generational thing, b

by dade_ 12y ago

It sure looks like Woz is holding solder with his mouth in the video. A lot more brave than I am, even if it is lead free. Maybe it is a generational thing, but my parents and adults around me when growing up were always warning me about the dangers of lead and mercury and would tell stories about how they played with them as children with no idea of the hazard.

grecy 12y ago
I'm only 32, and I've held solder in my mouth tons of times. Heck, I bet I did it in high school electronics class.
vinbreau 12y ago
It made me uncomfortable as well. I actually knew a girl who willfully ingested a troublesome amount of mercury in high school. Her children have visible birth defects now.
- lectrick 12y ago
  That doesn't make sense unless she took the mercury while she was pregnant
  - adventured 12y ago
    Lacking a specific understanding of mercury's interaction with the body, can mercury be retained in the body for extremely long periods of time, and can it cause damage to the DNA that would lead to birth defects in children?
    - CapitalistCartr 12y ago
      In Minamata, Japan there was a bad mercury release in the 50s, into the bay, resulting in Minamata disease. "In Minamata, Japan, pregnant women who consumed the contaminated fish manifested mild or no symptoms but gave birth to infants with severe developmental disabilities, including cerebral palsy, mental retardation, and seizures." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minamata,_Kumamoto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minamata,_Kumamoto http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/113/Supplement_3/1023.full http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/113/Supplement...
      - lectrick 12y ago
        Does this mean that they ingested the mercury WHILE pregnant, or BEFORE they got pregnant? It's not clear from the wording.
GuiA 12y ago
Wait, you're not supposed to? Why not (with lead free solder)? As a self taught electronics tinkerer I've never heard this, and I do it all the time when I work and no one's ever told me anything :/
- MCRed 12y ago
  No reason not to, really. The paint of my car has all kinds of evil chemicals in it, but if I lick my car I'm not going to die. Even if I licked my car a lot. There's a huge difference between skin exposure and ingestion. At some point being overly cautions crosses the border into pseudo science.
  - smatthews 12y ago
    >At some point being overly cautions crosses the border into pseudo science. Sure, but there isn't much harm in that in this particular example. What is there to be gained by holding solder metal in the mouth?
    - jack-r-abbit 12y ago
      > What is there to be gained by holding solder metal in the mouth? Unless you have a third arm or a monkey tail, holding the solder in your mouth is about your only option when the component is in one hand and the iron is in the other.
      - DanBC 12y ago
        If you spend any kind of time doing this you should just invest in a jig to hold the work. And solder is thin and flexible, it's pretty easy with a bit of practice to manipulate it with the other fingers. Wiggling the joint while it's setting is sub-optimal.
        jack-r-abbit 12y ago
        Of course. But not everything fits into a jig.
kazinator 12y ago
The form of the metal matters. The elemental lead in leaded solder is not nearly as harmful as the lead in various compounds like tetraethyl lead anti-knock additive for gasoline, or the compounds used in leaded paint. About mercury, consider that it's still widely used in dental amalgam. FDA article on amalgam: http://www.fda.gov/MedicalDevices/ProductsandMedicalProcedures/DentalProducts/DentalAmalgam/ucm171094.htm http://www.fda.gov/MedicalDevices/ProductsandMedicalProcedur... > A lot more brave than I am, even if it is lead free. Nobody who knows what they are doing works with lead-free solder for manual rework or repair. It needs a higher temperature, flows poorly, and produces an ugly matte surface, upon cooling, that looks like a cold solder joint even when the joint is actually good. I can almost guarantee you that Woz is using nothing but 60/40 Sn/Pb in that shot. :)
- S_A_P 12y ago
  Not to mention tin whiskers are a problem http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whisker_%28metallurgy%29 http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whisker_%28metallurgy%29
- stan_rogers 12y ago
  Nah, Woz is/was geeky enough to be using 63/37 (eutectic). (If you've never used it, it's wonderful stuff -- nary a cold joint to be seen, unless you really put some effort into it.)
ghaff 12y ago
I remember having one of those plastic-enclosed mercury maze games where you tried to guide a blob of mercury (without it breaking up) from the outside to the center of a maze. 1970s probably. I recall having it for quite a few years. Probably it broke and the mercury came out at some point :-)
outworlder 12y ago
That's nothing. When you work with electronics, you'll regularly inhale the fumes. I know I did, and did it as a child assembling schematics found in hobbyist magazines.
- kazinator 12y ago
  Lead has too much of a molecular weight to generate significant fumes at the soldering temperature. The vapor pressure isn't there. Consider that the boiling point of lead is 1750°C. You'd have to be soldering with a big propane torch to get anywhere near that. (This could be a risk for plumbers, consequently.) The fumes you're seeing and smelling are from the rosin flux being heated past its smoke point. (Though good for you, not lead).
  - jagger27 12y ago
    I'll assume you mean to say "Though _not_ good for you, not lead".
    - justin66 12y ago
      It's worth elaborating just a bit on this: lead free solder might be better for the environment but the increased amount of flux involved is actually really bad for the person doing the soldering. (obviously not quite as applicable to someone operating a wave soldering machine) http://www.wellerzerosmog.com/health_risk/#lead http://www.wellerzerosmog.com/health_risk/#lead
  - WalterBright 12y ago
    That's good to know. I worked as an electronics tech to pay my way through college, and was worried about that. I did have enough sense, though, to make myself a little desk fan out of an electronics cooling fan, and would use that to blow the fumes away from me while I soldered. I lost the fan years ago, and now just hold my breath when I solder.
DanBC 12y ago
It's not a good idea, but the fumes are probably worse. Especially if it's a traditional flux.
jpmattia 12y ago
> about the dangers of lead and mercury and would tell stories about how they played with them as children with no idea of the hazard. Count me among the ones who played. My grandfather worked for AC Gilbert, who's company originally produced The Erector Set. It produced many toys, and we had one of these lead casting kits: http://www.girdersandgears.com/kaster.html http://www.girdersandgears.com/kaster.html I never could figure out one of the molds, which is fortunate because it produced a whistle. In lead. That you stick in your mouth. Maybe I couldn't figure out how to assemble it because I was already too stupid from the lead poisoning due to the fumes while pouring the other molds. But I have to say: Working with a crucible of molten lead was pretty fun as a kid.
jwr 12y ago
It is a bad idea, but not necessarily because of lead, but because of electricity. What happens if your soldering iron is faulty? What happens if the circuit you're soldering is under tension or there are some caps holding charge? I do this sometimes, but only when solder is in a plastic container, which allows me to hold the container in my mouth, without touching the solder.

by dade_ 12y ago

grecy 12y ago

I'm only 32, and I've held solder in my mouth tons of times. Heck, I bet I did it in high school electronics class.

vinbreau 12y ago

It made me uncomfortable as well. I actually knew a girl who willfully ingested a troublesome amount of mercury in high school. Her children have visible birth defects now.

lectrick 12y ago
That doesn't make sense unless she took the mercury while she was pregnant
- adventured 12y ago
  Lacking a specific understanding of mercury's interaction with the body, can mercury be retained in the body for extremely long periods of time, and can it cause damage to the DNA that would lead to birth defects in children?
  - CapitalistCartr 12y ago
    In Minamata, Japan there was a bad mercury release in the 50s, into the bay, resulting in Minamata disease. "In Minamata, Japan, pregnant women who consumed the contaminated fish manifested mild or no symptoms but gave birth to infants with severe developmental disabilities, including cerebral palsy, mental retardation, and seizures." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minamata,_Kumamoto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minamata,_Kumamoto http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/113/Supplement_3/1023.full http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/113/Supplement...
    - lectrick 12y ago
      Does this mean that they ingested the mercury WHILE pregnant, or BEFORE they got pregnant? It's not clear from the wording.

GuiA 12y ago

Wait, you're not supposed to? Why not (with lead free solder)? As a self taught electronics tinkerer I've never heard this, and I do it all the time when I work and no one's ever told me anything :/

MCRed 12y ago
No reason not to, really. The paint of my car has all kinds of evil chemicals in it, but if I lick my car I'm not going to die. Even if I licked my car a lot. There's a huge difference between skin exposure and ingestion. At some point being overly cautions crosses the border into pseudo science.
- smatthews 12y ago
  >At some point being overly cautions crosses the border into pseudo science. Sure, but there isn't much harm in that in this particular example. What is there to be gained by holding solder metal in the mouth?
  - jack-r-abbit 12y ago
    > What is there to be gained by holding solder metal in the mouth? Unless you have a third arm or a monkey tail, holding the solder in your mouth is about your only option when the component is in one hand and the iron is in the other.
    - DanBC 12y ago
      If you spend any kind of time doing this you should just invest in a jig to hold the work. And solder is thin and flexible, it's pretty easy with a bit of practice to manipulate it with the other fingers. Wiggling the joint while it's setting is sub-optimal.
      - jack-r-abbit 12y ago
        Of course. But not everything fits into a jig.

kazinator 12y ago

The form of the metal matters. The elemental lead in leaded solder is not nearly as harmful as the lead in various compounds like tetraethyl lead anti-knock additive for gasoline, or the compounds used in leaded paint. About mercury, consider that it's still widely used in dental amalgam. FDA article on amalgam: http://www.fda.gov/MedicalDevices/ProductsandMedicalProcedures/DentalProducts/DentalAmalgam/ucm171094.htm http://www.fda.gov/MedicalDevices/ProductsandMedicalProcedur... > A lot more brave than I am, even if it is lead free. Nobody who knows what they are doing works with lead-free solder for manual rework or repair. It needs a higher temperature, flows poorly, and produces an ugly matte surface, upon cooling, that looks like a cold solder joint even when the joint is actually good. I can almost guarantee you that Woz is using nothing but 60/40 Sn/Pb in that shot. :)

S_A_P 12y ago
Not to mention tin whiskers are a problem http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whisker_%28metallurgy%29 http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whisker_%28metallurgy%29
stan_rogers 12y ago
Nah, Woz is/was geeky enough to be using 63/37 (eutectic). (If you've never used it, it's wonderful stuff -- nary a cold joint to be seen, unless you really put some effort into it.)

ghaff 12y ago

I remember having one of those plastic-enclosed mercury maze games where you tried to guide a blob of mercury (without it breaking up) from the outside to the center of a maze. 1970s probably. I recall having it for quite a few years. Probably it broke and the mercury came out at some point :-)

outworlder 12y ago

That's nothing. When you work with electronics, you'll regularly inhale the fumes. I know I did, and did it as a child assembling schematics found in hobbyist magazines.

kazinator 12y ago
Lead has too much of a molecular weight to generate significant fumes at the soldering temperature. The vapor pressure isn't there. Consider that the boiling point of lead is 1750°C. You'd have to be soldering with a big propane torch to get anywhere near that. (This could be a risk for plumbers, consequently.) The fumes you're seeing and smelling are from the rosin flux being heated past its smoke point. (Though good for you, not lead).
- jagger27 12y ago
  I'll assume you mean to say "Though _not_ good for you, not lead".
  - justin66 12y ago
    It's worth elaborating just a bit on this: lead free solder might be better for the environment but the increased amount of flux involved is actually really bad for the person doing the soldering. (obviously not quite as applicable to someone operating a wave soldering machine) http://www.wellerzerosmog.com/health_risk/#lead http://www.wellerzerosmog.com/health_risk/#lead
- WalterBright 12y ago
  That's good to know. I worked as an electronics tech to pay my way through college, and was worried about that. I did have enough sense, though, to make myself a little desk fan out of an electronics cooling fan, and would use that to blow the fumes away from me while I soldered. I lost the fan years ago, and now just hold my breath when I solder.

DanBC 12y ago

It's not a good idea, but the fumes are probably worse. Especially if it's a traditional flux.

jpmattia 12y ago

> about the dangers of lead and mercury and would tell stories about how they played with them as children with no idea of the hazard. Count me among the ones who played. My grandfather worked for AC Gilbert, who's company originally produced The Erector Set. It produced many toys, and we had one of these lead casting kits: http://www.girdersandgears.com/kaster.html http://www.girdersandgears.com/kaster.html I never could figure out one of the molds, which is fortunate because it produced a whistle. In lead. That you stick in your mouth. Maybe I couldn't figure out how to assemble it because I was already too stupid from the lead poisoning due to the fumes while pouring the other molds. But I have to say: Working with a crucible of molten lead was pretty fun as a kid.

jwr 12y ago

It is a bad idea, but not necessarily because of lead, but because of electricity. What happens if your soldering iron is faulty? What happens if the circuit you're soldering is under tension or there are some caps holding charge? I do this sometimes, but only when solder is in a plastic container, which allows me to hold the container in my mouth, without touching the solder.