13 ms·

What I do outside of work is none of my employers business - period. I'm surprised I'm the only one that finds this practice offensive? For the record I have k

by smakz 17y ago

What I do outside of work is none of my employers business - period. I'm surprised I'm the only one that finds this practice offensive? For the record I have known many, many engineers who devote themselves 100% passionately to their 9-5 jobs and when they get home, they relax and do other things. These people are the type of people I would hire in my organization in a heartbeat. I have also known the 'entrepreneurial' type of developers who have side projects and while they are generally good workers, a few of them are more interested in their side project then their actual day job and their work quality has suffered. Hire the people with the skills and aptitude to do the job, leave their personal lives out of it.

potatolicious 17y ago
Mmmm, I interpret this practice a little bit differently. I wouldn't hire someone who isn't passionate about programming. Many of the people I work with today rarely code outside of work - kids, hobbies, friends, etc. This is okay. But what you really want is one of the guys who stayed up all night in college to bang out the latest and greatest piece of code. You want the people who genuinely love doing this - because there are twice as many people who slummed their way through CS doing the bare minimum necessary. I work with both types, and as the former type I cannot stand working with the latter.
- bdotdub 17y ago
  I agree completely. I don't think it should be how many hours you put into a side project or how much time you spend coding something outside of work. It comes down to whether the person really enjoys tinkering with (new) technologies. It shouldn't matter if you don't code outside of work and it isn't your employers business. But if you do code outside of work, it definitely says a lot about your character and how you regard technology. My coworker said to me once, "There are those who do technology as a job, and there are those who do it as a passion. We want the latter"
  - gaius 17y ago
    "There are those who do technology as a job, and there are those who do it as a passion. We want the latter" Every company wants the best employees, but how many want to pay the best salaries?
- Retric 17y ago
  None of the top programmers I know code outside of work. They all have other hobbies and have been coding for long enough that they no longer find it challenging. They enjoy coding, but passion burns out before you truly master software development. PS: There is a tendency to start doing side projects if there job stops directly involving coding because they start managing people, teaching, or just retire.
  - _pius 17y ago
    None of the top programmers I know code outside of work. Ironically I've had the exact opposite experience. In professional life, the best I could say about any programmer who doesn't code in their spare time is that they're "ok." And more often than not, I'd call them pretty mediocre. I've yet to meet anyone great who doesn't do at least a little programming on the side. It's a great predictor of ability in my experience. No offense to anyone here.
    - timr 17y ago
      "Ironically I've had the exact opposite experience. In professional life, the best I could say about any programmer who doesn't code in their spare time is that they're "ok." And more often than not, I'd call them pretty mediocre....No offense to anyone here." Saying that you didn't intend to offend doesn't give you carte blanche to say offensive things. I'm one of those guys who doesn't code outside of work. I have a limited capacity for that kind of intense thinking, and since I'm using that capacity at work, I have to take time away to stay sharp. It's stupid and shortsighted to conclude that this makes me mediocre, even if everyone else in your limited life sample has been mediocre. Also, for the record? Nothing you wrote was ironic.
      - staunch 17y ago
        I think your hostility is a bit overboard... The idea that doing intense work could sap your energy totally matches my experience. I would find it hard to believe that you love solving problems with code, but never find the opportunity and necessity to do that outside of work. For periods of months perhaps? Sure, but over years? Never doing anything other than what's expected at your job? I'd find that hard to believe.
skolor 17y ago
You're right: what you do outside of work isn't your employer's business. However, I would not hire a programmer who will not program at home. That's not to say I would expect them to be contributing to so Open Source project, or to be running a side business, but that they can and do put together code in their own time, for their own reasons. For example, the guy who runs a personal blog, and put together his own widget to display some sort of stat, seems like a good idea. The guy who runs a personal blog, and spends a day (off) hunting down a widget that someone else made, that kind of does what he wants, and costs $20 to use, would not be a good fit. My view on it is something similar to: I wouldn't take my car to a mechanic who takes his own car to the dealer. Why would I hire a a programmer who, when he needs a program written for himself, goes and finds someone else's work?
- techiferous 17y ago
  I've been a programmer professionally for over 10 years and worked with a variety of teams. In my experience, I haven't observed a correlation between tinkering with programming as a hobby and the ability to be an effective employee. From what I've seen, communication skills, interpersonal skills, and the ability to motivate oneself have more impact than hobby programming. "I wouldn't take my car to a mechanic who takes his own car to the dealer." -- I see your point, but use your imagination a bit more. Perhaps there are really good mechanics out there who really love being mechanics but at the end of the day want to do something different than work on cars. In other words, you can love something and be good at it without it consuming all of your waking life. You have to be careful with taking such a hard line. As a developer, I would hesitate to work with you. EDIT: For the record, I work on lots of side projects outside of work.
- earl 17y ago
  Maybe because the programmer is an adult and isn't wowed by the prospect of spending more than 5 minutes writing something (s)he can buy for $20? Also, this is seriously nasty ageism. Once you grow up the same thing will happen to you: significant others, friends, activities, hobbies, pets, kids, etc, most of which don't involve sitting on your ass in front of a computer. In fact, having put 10 years into this industry, I work a lot harder and better at my actual job if I don't spend all my off hours in front of a computer.
bbsabelli 17y ago
Agreed, but I think you missed the point, which is... If the programmer sitting in front of him for an interview doesn't program outside of work hours, how did he/she get the interview in the first place? His conclusion is that they must have been goofing off at work during the day on open source forums, blogging or using twitter.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
csallen 17y ago
Hire the people with the skills and aptitude to do the job, leave their personal lives out of it. Fact is, it's not always easy to determine the skill and aptitude levels of a prospective hire. Even if you can accurately pinpoint these things, a high skill level alone doesn't always translate into hard work as an employee. You can never know exactly how things are going to work out in the end, so your best bet is simply trying to raise your chances of making a good decision. When it comes to coding, it's safe to say that the more time one spends doing it, the better one gets. There are tens of thousands of people who enjoy coding as a hobby, so why hire someone who doesn't?
brown9-2 17y ago
I am not a lawyer, but I believe that judging a job candidate based on their outside-of-work activities would actually be considered discrimination and illegal. Judging passion is a different thing, but anyone reading this article and agreeing with the sentiment of it better be really careful about how they act about this during the interview process.
- techiferous 17y ago
  "judging a job candidate based on their outside-of-work activities would actually be considered...illegal." No, not in this case. This is relevant to the job. An employer can easily ask, "Do you have a software project portfolio?" or "What's your experience in python, professional or otherwise?" It's very much on-topic.
  - brown9-2 17y ago
    Whether you choose to spend your time at home programming or doing something else is relevant to your day job how exactly? I'm not saying that external work and side projects can't lead to experience or knowledge that would make someone a good candidate. Someone might be qualified because of the work they've done on the side. But they can't be disqualified because of a lack of it.
    - techiferous 17y ago
      "Someone might be qualified because of the work they've done on the side. But they can't be disqualified because of a lack of it." I agree 100%.
    - gloob 17y ago
      The post you are responding to claimed that the practice is legal. You are claiming it is unreasonable. You're arguing past each other.
    - philwelch 17y ago
      "Someone might be qualified because of the work they've done on the side. But they can't be disqualified because of a lack of it." That's kind of a meaningless statement. In a competitive atmosphere, not having a qualification is the same as being disqualified if the other guy has the qualification, and among programmers, the other guy usually does have that qualification.

by smakz 17y ago

potatolicious 17y ago

Mmmm, I interpret this practice a little bit differently. I wouldn't hire someone who isn't passionate about programming. Many of the people I work with today rarely code outside of work - kids, hobbies, friends, etc. This is okay. But what you really want is one of the guys who stayed up all night in college to bang out the latest and greatest piece of code. You want the people who genuinely love doing this - because there are twice as many people who slummed their way through CS doing the bare minimum necessary. I work with both types, and as the former type I cannot stand working with the latter.

bdotdub 17y ago
I agree completely. I don't think it should be how many hours you put into a side project or how much time you spend coding something outside of work. It comes down to whether the person really enjoys tinkering with (new) technologies. It shouldn't matter if you don't code outside of work and it isn't your employers business. But if you do code outside of work, it definitely says a lot about your character and how you regard technology. My coworker said to me once, "There are those who do technology as a job, and there are those who do it as a passion. We want the latter"
- gaius 17y ago
  "There are those who do technology as a job, and there are those who do it as a passion. We want the latter" Every company wants the best employees, but how many want to pay the best salaries?
Retric 17y ago
None of the top programmers I know code outside of work. They all have other hobbies and have been coding for long enough that they no longer find it challenging. They enjoy coding, but passion burns out before you truly master software development. PS: There is a tendency to start doing side projects if there job stops directly involving coding because they start managing people, teaching, or just retire.
- _pius 17y ago
  None of the top programmers I know code outside of work. Ironically I've had the exact opposite experience. In professional life, the best I could say about any programmer who doesn't code in their spare time is that they're "ok." And more often than not, I'd call them pretty mediocre. I've yet to meet anyone great who doesn't do at least a little programming on the side. It's a great predictor of ability in my experience. No offense to anyone here.
  - timr 17y ago
    "Ironically I've had the exact opposite experience. In professional life, the best I could say about any programmer who doesn't code in their spare time is that they're "ok." And more often than not, I'd call them pretty mediocre....No offense to anyone here." Saying that you didn't intend to offend doesn't give you carte blanche to say offensive things. I'm one of those guys who doesn't code outside of work. I have a limited capacity for that kind of intense thinking, and since I'm using that capacity at work, I have to take time away to stay sharp. It's stupid and shortsighted to conclude that this makes me mediocre, even if everyone else in your limited life sample has been mediocre. Also, for the record? Nothing you wrote was ironic.
    - staunch 17y ago
      I think your hostility is a bit overboard... The idea that doing intense work could sap your energy totally matches my experience. I would find it hard to believe that you love solving problems with code, but never find the opportunity and necessity to do that outside of work. For periods of months perhaps? Sure, but over years? Never doing anything other than what's expected at your job? I'd find that hard to believe.

skolor 17y ago

You're right: what you do outside of work isn't your employer's business. However, I would not hire a programmer who will not program at home. That's not to say I would expect them to be contributing to so Open Source project, or to be running a side business, but that they can and do put together code in their own time, for their own reasons. For example, the guy who runs a personal blog, and put together his own widget to display some sort of stat, seems like a good idea. The guy who runs a personal blog, and spends a day (off) hunting down a widget that someone else made, that kind of does what he wants, and costs $20 to use, would not be a good fit. My view on it is something similar to: I wouldn't take my car to a mechanic who takes his own car to the dealer. Why would I hire a a programmer who, when he needs a program written for himself, goes and finds someone else's work?

techiferous 17y ago
I've been a programmer professionally for over 10 years and worked with a variety of teams. In my experience, I haven't observed a correlation between tinkering with programming as a hobby and the ability to be an effective employee. From what I've seen, communication skills, interpersonal skills, and the ability to motivate oneself have more impact than hobby programming. "I wouldn't take my car to a mechanic who takes his own car to the dealer." -- I see your point, but use your imagination a bit more. Perhaps there are really good mechanics out there who really love being mechanics but at the end of the day want to do something different than work on cars. In other words, you can love something and be good at it without it consuming all of your waking life. You have to be careful with taking such a hard line. As a developer, I would hesitate to work with you. EDIT: For the record, I work on lots of side projects outside of work.
earl 17y ago
Maybe because the programmer is an adult and isn't wowed by the prospect of spending more than 5 minutes writing something (s)he can buy for $20? Also, this is seriously nasty ageism. Once you grow up the same thing will happen to you: significant others, friends, activities, hobbies, pets, kids, etc, most of which don't involve sitting on your ass in front of a computer. In fact, having put 10 years into this industry, I work a lot harder and better at my actual job if I don't spend all my off hours in front of a computer.

bbsabelli 17y ago

Agreed, but I think you missed the point, which is... If the programmer sitting in front of him for an interview doesn't program outside of work hours, how did he/she get the interview in the first place? His conclusion is that they must have been goofing off at work during the day on open source forums, blogging or using twitter.

deleted 17y ago
[deleted]

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

csallen 17y ago

Hire the people with the skills and aptitude to do the job, leave their personal lives out of it. Fact is, it's not always easy to determine the skill and aptitude levels of a prospective hire. Even if you can accurately pinpoint these things, a high skill level alone doesn't always translate into hard work as an employee. You can never know exactly how things are going to work out in the end, so your best bet is simply trying to raise your chances of making a good decision. When it comes to coding, it's safe to say that the more time one spends doing it, the better one gets. There are tens of thousands of people who enjoy coding as a hobby, so why hire someone who doesn't?

brown9-2 17y ago

I am not a lawyer, but I believe that judging a job candidate based on their outside-of-work activities would actually be considered discrimination and illegal. Judging passion is a different thing, but anyone reading this article and agreeing with the sentiment of it better be really careful about how they act about this during the interview process.

techiferous 17y ago
"judging a job candidate based on their outside-of-work activities would actually be considered...illegal." No, not in this case. This is relevant to the job. An employer can easily ask, "Do you have a software project portfolio?" or "What's your experience in python, professional or otherwise?" It's very much on-topic.
- brown9-2 17y ago
  Whether you choose to spend your time at home programming or doing something else is relevant to your day job how exactly? I'm not saying that external work and side projects can't lead to experience or knowledge that would make someone a good candidate. Someone might be qualified because of the work they've done on the side. But they can't be disqualified because of a lack of it.
  - techiferous 17y ago
    "Someone might be qualified because of the work they've done on the side. But they can't be disqualified because of a lack of it." I agree 100%.
  - gloob 17y ago
    The post you are responding to claimed that the practice is legal. You are claiming it is unreasonable. You're arguing past each other.
  - philwelch 17y ago
    "Someone might be qualified because of the work they've done on the side. But they can't be disqualified because of a lack of it." That's kind of a meaningless statement. In a competitive atmosphere, not having a qualification is the same as being disqualified if the other guy has the qualification, and among programmers, the other guy usually does have that qualification.