7 ms·

> As best I can tell, they don't see alternative options. Soon this will trickle down to college. In many cases, you pay $250K for that too. In many, many fiel

> As best I can tell, they don't see alternative options. Soon this will trickle down to college. In many cases, you pay $250K for that too. In many, many fields, you can learn everything you need to know on the internet, and get the job you want by just hustling (often by impressing only a single person with influence in the field you want). I'm in biomedical sciences, have a Ph.D. and will be a professor at a very good school soon, but I don't give a crap about somebody's degrees. If this line of thinking is invading my world, then you better believe the rest of the economy is getting there too. (I also only got into MIT because I managed to impress one influential person). Getting ahead in life by going to college is a dying notion.

001sky 12y ago
There are entire fields in the professions that could easily be taught by appreticeship. But this would be very risky politically and socially for the establishment. The establishment profits from having all new employees and their families be deep into debt, only for the chance to put Jr on the entry-level job within the establishment. That makes Jr alot more malleable in his/her on the job training.
- spacecowboy_lon 12y ago
  err no becase aprtiships tend focus on the practical almost 100% in the trade ones - even the so called advanced aprtiships don't go as in depth as a 3/4 year degree. there is also the unfortunate fact that in the UK at least aprtiships have been debased by alowing mcdonadls and unskiled employers to offer them. BTW back when I was doning my BTECH if you had called any of my cohort that we where aprtices you woudl have been told to F$%^ off
  - spacecowboy_lon 12y ago
    Obvisly HN reders have zero idea what "apprenticeships" are.
alsocasey 12y ago
> I'm in biomedical sciences, have a Ph.D. and will be a professor at a very good school soon, but I don't give a crap about somebody's degrees. Many funding opportunities in academia are still tied to holding a graduate degree though.
- untilHellbanned 12y ago
  I know, but Kickstarter, Experiment, Onarbor...that too will change.
  - Thriptic 12y ago
    You think so? I highly doubt crowd sourced, non-industry funding will ever be able to fund R01 or even transition grant level projects sustainably, and among all projects I can only see highly translational projects which are easier to pitch to the public getting funded through this model. All the existing players have an incentive to maintain the status quo as far as government and industry funding goes, and the infrastructure requirements and regulatory issues associated with practicing biomedical science make it basically impossible to break out of the traditional academic or industry model. From the research side, academics who have gotten PhDs, post-doced for 5 years, been associate professors for years, and then finally gotten faculty spots would be furious to see scarce grants start going to people who haven't put in that time. From the government side, I haven't seen many bold ideas in terms of funding come out of NIH or NSF. I saw Francis Collins speak at MIT about a month ago iirc, and he had essentially nothing to say on the subject except that he hopes the situation will improve and that they were introducing "bold" new grants which would facilitate post-doc transitions faster.
    - untilHellbanned 12y ago
      > You think so? Yes. > I highly doubt crowd sourced, non-industry funding will ever be able to fund R01 I'd be careful about the "highly doubt" part. This sounds like something the Blackberry or Blockbuster would have CEO said. > All the existing players have an incentive to maintain the status quo They don't care what the status quo is. Nobody sings three cheers to their alma-mater US govt. grant agencies. People care about getting money to do their work. Howard Hughes Medical Institute and Cell press didn't exist until they did and then their money and power started talking and everyone listened. > then finally gotten faculty spots would be furious The market will have no sympathy for this. NIH budget is $30 Billion. Many crappy internet businesses, Yahoo, have that kind of money. People spend more than that on iPhones. If the "crowd" mobilizes to any extent like it is prone to do on the internet, the collective purchasing power will have no problem blowing away the NIH. Kickstarter is already crossing this threshold. It has already raised several billion and its only 5 years old and that number is growing exponentially. It's happening. The ivory tower has been warned.
hackuser 12y ago
> Getting ahead in life by going to college is a dying notion People with college degrees earn significantly more over their lifetimes. Also, they usually understand the world and critical thinking much better, have better communication skills, etc. These things are valuable in themselves and valuable for their roles as citizens, parents, community members, etc. To read that claim from someone with a Ph.D., a degree from MIT, and will soon be on the faculty of "a very good school" is a bit rich. It reminds me of wealthy people who says money doesn't matter to them. HN is a unique environment of generally highly-educated, high-achieving people. Most of the world cannot program computers; many cannot operate them. It would be interesting to hear from members of the large majority who lack college degrees.
- jqm 12y ago
  People with college degrees, in the past, earned significantly more over their lifetimes than those without. But this may or may not continue, particularly for certain degrees where the person may have been better off learning marketable skill and applying it early. I have a college degree and have never really used it. The jobs I have landed, the things I have done, none of them in any way shape or form are attributable to that degree. And, I graduated college nearly 20 years ago. College was a good place to drink beer and get laid, but really, I think I would have been better off going straight to work. The sad part is, I knew it at the time but my parents were insistant that without a degree I'd be mopping floors for a living. So I listened to them when I should have trusted my gut instincts. I'd trade the degree back in a heartbeat for tuition and interest and book costs alone...to say nothing of the 4 years (ok.. almost 5, I was having a good time but who is counting?) of opportunity cost. Have to agree with OP. I believe college to be generally overpriced and over rated. Particularly in certain disciplines. I'm about as sad to see law schools going out of business as I would be to see mosquito breeding pools being drained. Maybe some of the potential attendees can do something socially useful with their lives now. (yes, I know...we need lawyers. we probably need mosquitos too. just not so many of them.)
  - hackuser 12y ago
    You can make the subjective assertion that college was worthless to you personally, and who can challenge it? But a subjective assertion by one person is not data nor is it representative of any population (I learned that in college). Also, education has many benefits beyond earning money. It's seems absurdly narrow-minded to evaluate college solely by the marginal income gain. Life is so much more and education benefits much of it. I could not write nearly as well, use mathematics, understand science, understand art, understand humanity, be as creative, etc. etc. without the years I spent studying those things. I can't imagine doing what I do with my high school education. Can someone waste their time in college? Of course and I'm sorry for those that did, but don't impose it on everyone else. I remember most of my peers' intellectual curiosity and how much they learned. Someone could own a computer or raise kids and gain nothing from those things either, but that doesn't devalue my computer or family, or argue that they don't provide great benefits to humanity.
molmalo 12y ago
There are lots of areas where formal education is a must. Even when you can self-teach everything, you still need some structure, some meta-learning, to learn what you need to study to build the pillars of your knowledge. And you still need some organization that certifies that you know what you claim you know. Medicine is an obvious example. Engineering is another. No-one would like to live in a tall building made by somebody who claims to know how to build tall buildings, but didn't go to college. I bet not many pharmaceutical companies would like to hire someone without a degree to design a new drug. Regulations, insurance, credibility, lots of problems. > Getting ahead in life by going to college is a dying notion. So, yes... you can earn a lot of money without a degree, but if you want to work in some areas that need a degree, you must go to college. And I see that with my sister today. She's 2 years older than me. She left university after 3 years, went to live to another country for 6 years, and came back with no money. She worked there, but spent a lot living large, having fun and enjoying her twenties. Meanwhile, I studied and worked (to pay my studies).. Now, I earn almost 4 times what she earns. And it's difficult to her to find a job that she likes. She tried having her own business, and burned all of her savings. She started studying again, realizing that without a career, she's going to have a really hard professional future. I know that the choices we both made are based on very different philosophies. She prioritized enjoying her youth, and that's OK. I prioritized investing in my future, and that's OK too. But a formal education, is still a great tool to help you in your professional life, even when you can learn all by yourself.
- BSousa 12y ago
  But what did she do during those 6 years out of the country? Bartend in beach bars or worked in an office/whatnot learning the skills and tools to have a good career? I think that is the main problem with people that assume college degree equals more money than not. Because it is either study and get a degree or go work at McDonalds or bartend. I'll give you the opposite. I dropped out on my 2nd year. Went abroad as well, but went to work in the area I wanted to (game development) and continued to move around and learned a lot in various industries. 12-13 years since then and I'm making more than 5x than anyone in my HS class that got a degree (and I'm talking STEM degrees), and more than double what other friends that got a medical degree are making (which took them around 7-8 years to get). Sure, if you want to perform surgery, you are going to have to get that degree, but that is a very specific degree you are going to get and not just 'CS because I like computers' or 'English Literature because I don't like math' which seems to be why a lot of folks go to University these days: "you got to have that degree y'all"
graeme 12y ago
I can't edit my original post, so I'll write this here. I wrote this in a misleading way: "But (some) students still want to do it, despite the stark reality. As best I can tell, they don't see alternative options. This group is shrinking however, which is why law school enrolments are in free fall." I didn't mean their prospects have improved. I meant that more students are realizing that going to a really expensive law school just because you have poor prospects is a lousy idea, given today's bubble. Non-technical students are still utterly confused as to what they're supposed to do after college. Though I think more will start figuring out what you've written. A college degree and a college experience is a nice thing to have, I think. But I doubt it's worth $250K as the price of basic entry to the job market. Something's got to give.
luckyno13 12y ago
I spent many years trying to navigate various job opportunities and met quite a few people and yes, you are right, if you meet the right person you can get lucky. But it is pretty much just that, luck. I work for a state agency and the people around here still view a 4 year degree as an elite status and it drives me nuts. On top of that, the PhD holders get no respect, its as if no degree makes you nothing and the higher degrees were a waste. Its silly given the atmosphere (a lab). And as far as the agency hiring process goes, all applications are put in online. If they even hint at wanting a degree as a requirement for hiring (even if the position doesn't necessarily require a degree, not talking engineering here) they will ask a prelim about having a degree. Answer wrong and a human will never even know you applied, even if you told someone you did; EVEN if they told you to apply in the first place. The problem with this "college is required" mentality going away is that it is ingrained in a generation. Today's 20 somethings, and tomorrows as well, will have to deal with this as long as the 40, 50 and 60 somethings are still doing the hiring. They were raised with black and white views of requirements to do a job it seems, only from personal experience. And even if they give you the time of day, if the decision comes down to guy with degree and guy without, often times the guy without is going to lose because he doesn't appear to be the best investment of time and energy. As for me, I gave in. As humbly as possible I will say I saw through the bullshit since before I left high school. I could earn as high as marks as I wanted and knew I could do what I wanted, but the chances were high that without a degree I was going to have to have some luck in finding that one special position. Once leaving the private sector and finding myself in a gov job, as I said, I gave in. I am enrolled in school. I am doing as I figured I would, 4.0 blah blah, but still sort of lack direction. I have picked a path, am going to follow it and see where it goes really. The reality I have found myself facing is that no matter what degree you have, a lot of times, a 4 year degree means you have a degree and that just makes you better somehow. It doesn't even have to be a relevant degree to the position in which you apply. Especially when a system such as this one counts each year of a degree as an equivalent to a year of experience. (BA required, or AA with 2 years exp, or HS with 4 years exp). Anyway, I will end my wall of text here. I only wished to share a perspective of someone who tried without, and is in the process of what he ultimately considers concession to the pressure of societal norms.
glesica 12y ago
No offense, but I think people who went to MIT (and similar) are least-qualified to comment on this matter. People who go to elite schools are generally going to be fine either way, they are highly motivated and high-achieving and their classmates are the same. But lower down the rankings things are different. Those kids can't even get an interview without a degree. We aren't talking about Google or something, we're talking about jobs working the desk at a car rental office, or being an assistant manager at a grocery store, that sort of thing. It has absolutely nothing to do with learning skills (which, you're right, can be done online). You don't need any special skills for those jobs, at least none that are taught in school. It is just the piece of paper that matters in this case. Until companies stop demanding degrees for entry-level positions, college will be beneficial. Maybe that will follow once the bubble pops, but wow is there going to be a lot of pain when that happens.
drcomputer 12y ago
The structure, organization and ability of the institutions, curricula, and people that shaped your ability to learn independently is non-obvious privilege. You would be surprised at the many varieties of ways there are to think, of how chaotic a world that world truly is, and how so many variables had to come together for you to get where you are, and how delicate a balance that truly is. It's one thing to be humble, it's entirely another thing to humble yourself so much you manage to convince yourself you are actually an idiot. You learned how to learn by having the privilege of having the free time to teach yourself how to learn, how to observe others in a learning environment, and how to get an idea of how to position yourself in a huge organization where you can contribute your specific skill set to a larger whole, and you continue to collectively add to human knowledge without adding a static layer of chaos and confusion. Please, tell me where I can get a tenured professorship without a PhD by hustling. I'd love to know.
- CoreSet 12y ago
  I agree and am a bit disappointed by the prevailing blind spot on HN to exactly that privilege. I agree there shouldn't be as much emphasis on a bachelor's degree as a requirement - it's ridiculous to need a 4-year degree for most entry-level positions - but to attempt a solution by prescribing the universal cure-all of "learning the material yourself" through eBooks, tutorials, and MOOCS isn't feasible. Most people don't have the initiative or free time to complete any serious course of self-directed study (why MOOC completion rates are abysmally low). That doesn't mean they're immoral, lazy, or worthy of condemnation - it's simply a very common learning style. Being a true auto-didact is rare. The notion of going it alone also completely disregards the necessities of non-STEM careers. Although you might be able to at least attempt learning a subject like physics or mechanical engineering in a vacuum (though I don't think you'd get very far), it's simply not possible to grow in writing, rhetoric, or many of the humanities, without a dedicated dialogue between authors and evaluators. Writing for your blog is not enough to improve your style as a writer. The best advice on that front is to have someone savage it. College provides the critical space, time, and learning community to accomplish this. It has serious flaws, but there's a reason much of the West has adopted the (originally German) model of the modern university.

001sky 12y ago

There are entire fields in the professions that could easily be taught by appreticeship. But this would be very risky politically and socially for the establishment. The establishment profits from having all new employees and their families be deep into debt, only for the chance to put Jr on the entry-level job within the establishment. That makes Jr alot more malleable in his/her on the job training.

spacecowboy_lon 12y ago
err no becase aprtiships tend focus on the practical almost 100% in the trade ones - even the so called advanced aprtiships don't go as in depth as a 3/4 year degree. there is also the unfortunate fact that in the UK at least aprtiships have been debased by alowing mcdonadls and unskiled employers to offer them. BTW back when I was doning my BTECH if you had called any of my cohort that we where aprtices you woudl have been told to F$%^ off
- spacecowboy_lon 12y ago
  Obvisly HN reders have zero idea what "apprenticeships" are.

alsocasey 12y ago

> I'm in biomedical sciences, have a Ph.D. and will be a professor at a very good school soon, but I don't give a crap about somebody's degrees. Many funding opportunities in academia are still tied to holding a graduate degree though.

untilHellbanned 12y ago
I know, but Kickstarter, Experiment, Onarbor...that too will change.
- Thriptic 12y ago
  You think so? I highly doubt crowd sourced, non-industry funding will ever be able to fund R01 or even transition grant level projects sustainably, and among all projects I can only see highly translational projects which are easier to pitch to the public getting funded through this model. All the existing players have an incentive to maintain the status quo as far as government and industry funding goes, and the infrastructure requirements and regulatory issues associated with practicing biomedical science make it basically impossible to break out of the traditional academic or industry model. From the research side, academics who have gotten PhDs, post-doced for 5 years, been associate professors for years, and then finally gotten faculty spots would be furious to see scarce grants start going to people who haven't put in that time. From the government side, I haven't seen many bold ideas in terms of funding come out of NIH or NSF. I saw Francis Collins speak at MIT about a month ago iirc, and he had essentially nothing to say on the subject except that he hopes the situation will improve and that they were introducing "bold" new grants which would facilitate post-doc transitions faster.
  - untilHellbanned 12y ago
    > You think so? Yes. > I highly doubt crowd sourced, non-industry funding will ever be able to fund R01 I'd be careful about the "highly doubt" part. This sounds like something the Blackberry or Blockbuster would have CEO said. > All the existing players have an incentive to maintain the status quo They don't care what the status quo is. Nobody sings three cheers to their alma-mater US govt. grant agencies. People care about getting money to do their work. Howard Hughes Medical Institute and Cell press didn't exist until they did and then their money and power started talking and everyone listened. > then finally gotten faculty spots would be furious The market will have no sympathy for this. NIH budget is $30 Billion. Many crappy internet businesses, Yahoo, have that kind of money. People spend more than that on iPhones. If the "crowd" mobilizes to any extent like it is prone to do on the internet, the collective purchasing power will have no problem blowing away the NIH. Kickstarter is already crossing this threshold. It has already raised several billion and its only 5 years old and that number is growing exponentially. It's happening. The ivory tower has been warned.

hackuser 12y ago

> Getting ahead in life by going to college is a dying notion People with college degrees earn significantly more over their lifetimes. Also, they usually understand the world and critical thinking much better, have better communication skills, etc. These things are valuable in themselves and valuable for their roles as citizens, parents, community members, etc. To read that claim from someone with a Ph.D., a degree from MIT, and will soon be on the faculty of "a very good school" is a bit rich. It reminds me of wealthy people who says money doesn't matter to them. HN is a unique environment of generally highly-educated, high-achieving people. Most of the world cannot program computers; many cannot operate them. It would be interesting to hear from members of the large majority who lack college degrees.

jqm 12y ago
People with college degrees, in the past, earned significantly more over their lifetimes than those without. But this may or may not continue, particularly for certain degrees where the person may have been better off learning marketable skill and applying it early. I have a college degree and have never really used it. The jobs I have landed, the things I have done, none of them in any way shape or form are attributable to that degree. And, I graduated college nearly 20 years ago. College was a good place to drink beer and get laid, but really, I think I would have been better off going straight to work. The sad part is, I knew it at the time but my parents were insistant that without a degree I'd be mopping floors for a living. So I listened to them when I should have trusted my gut instincts. I'd trade the degree back in a heartbeat for tuition and interest and book costs alone...to say nothing of the 4 years (ok.. almost 5, I was having a good time but who is counting?) of opportunity cost. Have to agree with OP. I believe college to be generally overpriced and over rated. Particularly in certain disciplines. I'm about as sad to see law schools going out of business as I would be to see mosquito breeding pools being drained. Maybe some of the potential attendees can do something socially useful with their lives now. (yes, I know...we need lawyers. we probably need mosquitos too. just not so many of them.)
- hackuser 12y ago
  You can make the subjective assertion that college was worthless to you personally, and who can challenge it? But a subjective assertion by one person is not data nor is it representative of any population (I learned that in college). Also, education has many benefits beyond earning money. It's seems absurdly narrow-minded to evaluate college solely by the marginal income gain. Life is so much more and education benefits much of it. I could not write nearly as well, use mathematics, understand science, understand art, understand humanity, be as creative, etc. etc. without the years I spent studying those things. I can't imagine doing what I do with my high school education. Can someone waste their time in college? Of course and I'm sorry for those that did, but don't impose it on everyone else. I remember most of my peers' intellectual curiosity and how much they learned. Someone could own a computer or raise kids and gain nothing from those things either, but that doesn't devalue my computer or family, or argue that they don't provide great benefits to humanity.

molmalo 12y ago

There are lots of areas where formal education is a must. Even when you can self-teach everything, you still need some structure, some meta-learning, to learn what you need to study to build the pillars of your knowledge. And you still need some organization that certifies that you know what you claim you know. Medicine is an obvious example. Engineering is another. No-one would like to live in a tall building made by somebody who claims to know how to build tall buildings, but didn't go to college. I bet not many pharmaceutical companies would like to hire someone without a degree to design a new drug. Regulations, insurance, credibility, lots of problems. > Getting ahead in life by going to college is a dying notion. So, yes... you can earn a lot of money without a degree, but if you want to work in some areas that need a degree, you must go to college. And I see that with my sister today. She's 2 years older than me. She left university after 3 years, went to live to another country for 6 years, and came back with no money. She worked there, but spent a lot living large, having fun and enjoying her twenties. Meanwhile, I studied and worked (to pay my studies).. Now, I earn almost 4 times what she earns. And it's difficult to her to find a job that she likes. She tried having her own business, and burned all of her savings. She started studying again, realizing that without a career, she's going to have a really hard professional future. I know that the choices we both made are based on very different philosophies. She prioritized enjoying her youth, and that's OK. I prioritized investing in my future, and that's OK too. But a formal education, is still a great tool to help you in your professional life, even when you can learn all by yourself.

BSousa 12y ago
But what did she do during those 6 years out of the country? Bartend in beach bars or worked in an office/whatnot learning the skills and tools to have a good career? I think that is the main problem with people that assume college degree equals more money than not. Because it is either study and get a degree or go work at McDonalds or bartend. I'll give you the opposite. I dropped out on my 2nd year. Went abroad as well, but went to work in the area I wanted to (game development) and continued to move around and learned a lot in various industries. 12-13 years since then and I'm making more than 5x than anyone in my HS class that got a degree (and I'm talking STEM degrees), and more than double what other friends that got a medical degree are making (which took them around 7-8 years to get). Sure, if you want to perform surgery, you are going to have to get that degree, but that is a very specific degree you are going to get and not just 'CS because I like computers' or 'English Literature because I don't like math' which seems to be why a lot of folks go to University these days: "you got to have that degree y'all"

graeme 12y ago

I can't edit my original post, so I'll write this here. I wrote this in a misleading way: "But (some) students still want to do it, despite the stark reality. As best I can tell, they don't see alternative options. This group is shrinking however, which is why law school enrolments are in free fall." I didn't mean their prospects have improved. I meant that more students are realizing that going to a really expensive law school just because you have poor prospects is a lousy idea, given today's bubble. Non-technical students are still utterly confused as to what they're supposed to do after college. Though I think more will start figuring out what you've written. A college degree and a college experience is a nice thing to have, I think. But I doubt it's worth $250K as the price of basic entry to the job market. Something's got to give.

luckyno13 12y ago

I spent many years trying to navigate various job opportunities and met quite a few people and yes, you are right, if you meet the right person you can get lucky. But it is pretty much just that, luck. I work for a state agency and the people around here still view a 4 year degree as an elite status and it drives me nuts. On top of that, the PhD holders get no respect, its as if no degree makes you nothing and the higher degrees were a waste. Its silly given the atmosphere (a lab). And as far as the agency hiring process goes, all applications are put in online. If they even hint at wanting a degree as a requirement for hiring (even if the position doesn't necessarily require a degree, not talking engineering here) they will ask a prelim about having a degree. Answer wrong and a human will never even know you applied, even if you told someone you did; EVEN if they told you to apply in the first place. The problem with this "college is required" mentality going away is that it is ingrained in a generation. Today's 20 somethings, and tomorrows as well, will have to deal with this as long as the 40, 50 and 60 somethings are still doing the hiring. They were raised with black and white views of requirements to do a job it seems, only from personal experience. And even if they give you the time of day, if the decision comes down to guy with degree and guy without, often times the guy without is going to lose because he doesn't appear to be the best investment of time and energy. As for me, I gave in. As humbly as possible I will say I saw through the bullshit since before I left high school. I could earn as high as marks as I wanted and knew I could do what I wanted, but the chances were high that without a degree I was going to have to have some luck in finding that one special position. Once leaving the private sector and finding myself in a gov job, as I said, I gave in. I am enrolled in school. I am doing as I figured I would, 4.0 blah blah, but still sort of lack direction. I have picked a path, am going to follow it and see where it goes really. The reality I have found myself facing is that no matter what degree you have, a lot of times, a 4 year degree means you have a degree and that just makes you better somehow. It doesn't even have to be a relevant degree to the position in which you apply. Especially when a system such as this one counts each year of a degree as an equivalent to a year of experience. (BA required, or AA with 2 years exp, or HS with 4 years exp). Anyway, I will end my wall of text here. I only wished to share a perspective of someone who tried without, and is in the process of what he ultimately considers concession to the pressure of societal norms.

glesica 12y ago

No offense, but I think people who went to MIT (and similar) are least-qualified to comment on this matter. People who go to elite schools are generally going to be fine either way, they are highly motivated and high-achieving and their classmates are the same. But lower down the rankings things are different. Those kids can't even get an interview without a degree. We aren't talking about Google or something, we're talking about jobs working the desk at a car rental office, or being an assistant manager at a grocery store, that sort of thing. It has absolutely nothing to do with learning skills (which, you're right, can be done online). You don't need any special skills for those jobs, at least none that are taught in school. It is just the piece of paper that matters in this case. Until companies stop demanding degrees for entry-level positions, college will be beneficial. Maybe that will follow once the bubble pops, but wow is there going to be a lot of pain when that happens.

drcomputer 12y ago

The structure, organization and ability of the institutions, curricula, and people that shaped your ability to learn independently is non-obvious privilege. You would be surprised at the many varieties of ways there are to think, of how chaotic a world that world truly is, and how so many variables had to come together for you to get where you are, and how delicate a balance that truly is. It's one thing to be humble, it's entirely another thing to humble yourself so much you manage to convince yourself you are actually an idiot. You learned how to learn by having the privilege of having the free time to teach yourself how to learn, how to observe others in a learning environment, and how to get an idea of how to position yourself in a huge organization where you can contribute your specific skill set to a larger whole, and you continue to collectively add to human knowledge without adding a static layer of chaos and confusion. Please, tell me where I can get a tenured professorship without a PhD by hustling. I'd love to know.

CoreSet 12y ago
I agree and am a bit disappointed by the prevailing blind spot on HN to exactly that privilege. I agree there shouldn't be as much emphasis on a bachelor's degree as a requirement - it's ridiculous to need a 4-year degree for most entry-level positions - but to attempt a solution by prescribing the universal cure-all of "learning the material yourself" through eBooks, tutorials, and MOOCS isn't feasible. Most people don't have the initiative or free time to complete any serious course of self-directed study (why MOOC completion rates are abysmally low). That doesn't mean they're immoral, lazy, or worthy of condemnation - it's simply a very common learning style. Being a true auto-didact is rare. The notion of going it alone also completely disregards the necessities of non-STEM careers. Although you might be able to at least attempt learning a subject like physics or mechanical engineering in a vacuum (though I don't think you'd get very far), it's simply not possible to grow in writing, rhetoric, or many of the humanities, without a dedicated dialogue between authors and evaluators. Writing for your blog is not enough to improve your style as a writer. The best advice on that front is to have someone savage it. College provides the critical space, time, and learning community to accomplish this. It has serious flaws, but there's a reason much of the West has adopted the (originally German) model of the modern university.