8 ms·

I run an LSAT prep business. You'd be surprised how determined some undergrads are to go to law school, despite the objectively terrible math. They'll have a m

by graeme 12y ago

I run an LSAT prep business. You'd be surprised how determined some undergrads are to go to law school, despite the objectively terrible math. They'll have a mediocre LSAT score, but say "School X will let me in!". School X is terrible. They have lousy employment prospects, and charge $50,000 a year. When you add miscellaneous fees and opportunity cost of not working, the law degree costs at least $250,000. And your school might close. But (some) students still want to do it, despite the stark reality. As best I can tell, they don't see alternative options. This group is shrinking however, which is why law school enrolments are in free fall. This chart from the LSAC shows a massive drop in LSATs administered. http://www.lsac.org/lsacresources/data/lsats-administered http://www.lsac.org/lsacresources/data/lsats-administered 2008-2009 was the high water mark: 171,514 LSATs. 2014-15 likely will be less than 100,000. Which is good. The industry's been in a bubble, and it needs to pop. But that means this is a VERY bad time to be going to law school unless you're extremely careful (and ideally have a guaranteed scholarship to a good school that won't close).

ghaff 12y ago
> As best I can tell, they don't see alternative options. I think that's pretty much it. I certainly knew people who had majored in "Classics" or whatever--at a good school--but didn't feel they had the ability/connections/whatever to parlay that into a decent paying career. And given that realization, law school was one of the obvious paths--and didn't tend to require full-time work experience as the better MBA programs did.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
untilHellbanned 12y ago
> As best I can tell, they don't see alternative options. Soon this will trickle down to college. In many cases, you pay $250K for that too. In many, many fields, you can learn everything you need to know on the internet, and get the job you want by just hustling (often by impressing only a single person with influence in the field you want). I'm in biomedical sciences, have a Ph.D. and will be a professor at a very good school soon, but I don't give a crap about somebody's degrees. If this line of thinking is invading my world, then you better believe the rest of the economy is getting there too. (I also only got into MIT because I managed to impress one influential person). Getting ahead in life by going to college is a dying notion.
- 001sky 12y ago
  There are entire fields in the professions that could easily be taught by appreticeship. But this would be very risky politically and socially for the establishment. The establishment profits from having all new employees and their families be deep into debt, only for the chance to put Jr on the entry-level job within the establishment. That makes Jr alot more malleable in his/her on the job training.
  - spacecowboy_lon 12y ago
    err no becase aprtiships tend focus on the practical almost 100% in the trade ones - even the so called advanced aprtiships don't go as in depth as a 3/4 year degree. there is also the unfortunate fact that in the UK at least aprtiships have been debased by alowing mcdonadls and unskiled employers to offer them. BTW back when I was doning my BTECH if you had called any of my cohort that we where aprtices you woudl have been told to F$%^ off
    - spacecowboy_lon 12y ago
      Obvisly HN reders have zero idea what "apprenticeships" are.
- alsocasey 12y ago
  > I'm in biomedical sciences, have a Ph.D. and will be a professor at a very good school soon, but I don't give a crap about somebody's degrees. Many funding opportunities in academia are still tied to holding a graduate degree though.
  - untilHellbanned 12y ago
    I know, but Kickstarter, Experiment, Onarbor...that too will change.
    - Thriptic 12y ago
      You think so? I highly doubt crowd sourced, non-industry funding will ever be able to fund R01 or even transition grant level projects sustainably, and among all projects I can only see highly translational projects which are easier to pitch to the public getting funded through this model. All the existing players have an incentive to maintain the status quo as far as government and industry funding goes, and the infrastructure requirements and regulatory issues associated with practicing biomedical science make it basically impossible to break out of the traditional academic or industry model. From the research side, academics who have gotten PhDs, post-doced for 5 years, been associate professors for years, and then finally gotten faculty spots would be furious to see scarce grants start going to people who haven't put in that time. From the government side, I haven't seen many bold ideas in terms of funding come out of NIH or NSF. I saw Francis Collins speak at MIT about a month ago iirc, and he had essentially nothing to say on the subject except that he hopes the situation will improve and that they were introducing "bold" new grants which would facilitate post-doc transitions faster.

by graeme 12y ago

ghaff 12y ago

> As best I can tell, they don't see alternative options. I think that's pretty much it. I certainly knew people who had majored in "Classics" or whatever--at a good school--but didn't feel they had the ability/connections/whatever to parlay that into a decent paying career. And given that realization, law school was one of the obvious paths--and didn't tend to require full-time work experience as the better MBA programs did.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

untilHellbanned 12y ago

> As best I can tell, they don't see alternative options. Soon this will trickle down to college. In many cases, you pay $250K for that too. In many, many fields, you can learn everything you need to know on the internet, and get the job you want by just hustling (often by impressing only a single person with influence in the field you want). I'm in biomedical sciences, have a Ph.D. and will be a professor at a very good school soon, but I don't give a crap about somebody's degrees. If this line of thinking is invading my world, then you better believe the rest of the economy is getting there too. (I also only got into MIT because I managed to impress one influential person). Getting ahead in life by going to college is a dying notion.

001sky 12y ago
There are entire fields in the professions that could easily be taught by appreticeship. But this would be very risky politically and socially for the establishment. The establishment profits from having all new employees and their families be deep into debt, only for the chance to put Jr on the entry-level job within the establishment. That makes Jr alot more malleable in his/her on the job training.
- spacecowboy_lon 12y ago
  err no becase aprtiships tend focus on the practical almost 100% in the trade ones - even the so called advanced aprtiships don't go as in depth as a 3/4 year degree. there is also the unfortunate fact that in the UK at least aprtiships have been debased by alowing mcdonadls and unskiled employers to offer them. BTW back when I was doning my BTECH if you had called any of my cohort that we where aprtices you woudl have been told to F$%^ off
  - spacecowboy_lon 12y ago
    Obvisly HN reders have zero idea what "apprenticeships" are.
alsocasey 12y ago
> I'm in biomedical sciences, have a Ph.D. and will be a professor at a very good school soon, but I don't give a crap about somebody's degrees. Many funding opportunities in academia are still tied to holding a graduate degree though.
- untilHellbanned 12y ago
  I know, but Kickstarter, Experiment, Onarbor...that too will change.
  - Thriptic 12y ago
    You think so? I highly doubt crowd sourced, non-industry funding will ever be able to fund R01 or even transition grant level projects sustainably, and among all projects I can only see highly translational projects which are easier to pitch to the public getting funded through this model. All the existing players have an incentive to maintain the status quo as far as government and industry funding goes, and the infrastructure requirements and regulatory issues associated with practicing biomedical science make it basically impossible to break out of the traditional academic or industry model. From the research side, academics who have gotten PhDs, post-doced for 5 years, been associate professors for years, and then finally gotten faculty spots would be furious to see scarce grants start going to people who haven't put in that time. From the government side, I haven't seen many bold ideas in terms of funding come out of NIH or NSF. I saw Francis Collins speak at MIT about a month ago iirc, and he had essentially nothing to say on the subject except that he hopes the situation will improve and that they were introducing "bold" new grants which would facilitate post-doc transitions faster.