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Your anecdotal experience doesn't change the fact that H1B workers are paid less than American workers for comparable positions. http://www.motherjones.com/pol

Your anecdotal experience doesn't change the fact that H1B workers are paid less than American workers for comparable positions. http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/silicon-valley-h1b-visas-hurt-tech-workers http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/silicon-valley-h...

DINKDINK 12y ago
Why would you expect them to be paid the same. Should something that ships from Alaska cost the same as something shipped from your next door neighbor?
- DINKDINK 12y ago
  Can anyone explain the downvotes? or does the Upton Sinclair quote hold "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"
  - paublyrne 12y ago
    The metaphor you used appears to objectify immigrants.
- jakevn 12y ago
  Companies can take advantage of situations for profit, and that's their right, but the argument needs to be qualified so that we aren't speaking past one another. Are we talking about "should be able to" or "it's the right (for whatever definition of right) thing to do"? I'm going to go with the latter since I have little opinion on the law. For example, a company has the right to ask its programmers to work 80 hours. It's their right to squeeze as much out of their employees as they can. Should they? Should companies be taking advantage of low wages in other countries instead of paying market value? They certainly can chase the profit, but we're talking about people, not goods. At the end of the day, they're paying a person less simply because they know that they have little bargaining room. Some consider it unethical, others do not.
  - DINKDINK 12y ago
    "Should companies be taking advantage of low wages in other countries instead of paying market value?" If someone leaves a programming job in India to take a programming job in the USA, they're implicitly saying, This is a better deal for me. The only unethical/anticompetative practice was that someone created an artificial barrier (often pushed through legislation because of xenophobia) to keep "others" out. If you don't think we should the USA should be hiring talented people from India, do you think California should prevent people from Seattle from working in California? Where would you draw the line?
    - jakevn 12y ago
      I don't want to draw the line simply because I think it's too much a matter of opinion. To me, it's not about widely applicable ethics. I think companies should have the right to hire people from other countries and pay them low(er) wages. Or at least, they should have the right until there's some agreeable line that can be drawn (unlikely). I simply would lose respect for that company because I think the decent thing is to pay wages based on merit. I believe paying wages based on where someone is from is on the same level as squeezing as many hours as possible out of your workforce. In my eyes, it's irresponsible and not respectable.
refurb 12y ago
You linked to an article that references a study. Care to share the original data? The Department of Labor has wage floors for H1-Bs (prevailing wage). Company's can't legally pay below that.
- jtbigwoo 12y ago
  >> The Department of Labor has wage floors for H1-Bs (prevailing wage). Company's can legally pay below that. Companies play games with the experience levels and titles to force wages lower. An "architect" or "developer" gets replaced with an "analyst" or "engineer" making 2/3rds as much.
  - shmooth 12y ago
    and H1-B body shops force their workers to work umpteen hours of overtime, bill the clients for it, and H1-B workers get no compensation for all the overtime. and H1-B body shops do shady things like delay payments, take 'fees' out of payments, pay in rupees, etc. http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_26778017/tech-company-paid-employees-from-india-little-1 http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_26778017/tech-company... as go the unions, so go the workers...
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  Increasing the quantity supplied at the "prevailing wage" by way of H-1B depresses the prevailing wage from rising to what it would be in the absence of the H-1B for the positions for which H-1B has increased the supply (and has knock-on effects for other areas of work, because the Americans that don't get employed in the positions covered by H-1Bs then are competing in fields they otherwise wouldn't be, increasing the quantity supplied at any given price point in those fields.) Its not only basic economics, but if it didn't work that way, there'd be no benefit to employers from the H-1B existing to justify the compliance costs.
  - refurb 12y ago
    The point was that companies are underpaying H1-B workers. My argument is that there are floor wages they can't pay below. You're making another point about the impact of immigration. I don't disagree and it extends beyond immigration. If you open a new medical school you're depressing the wages of doctors. Just take a look at what happened to the legal profession.
bduerst 12y ago
This is patently false, and a common misunderstanding of immigrantion laws by U.S. citizens. >Requirement 4 - You must be paid at least the actual or prevailing wage for your occupation, whichever is higher. http://www.uscis.gov/eir/visa-guide/h-1b-specialty-occupation/understanding-h-1b-requirements http://www.uscis.gov/eir/visa-guide/h-1b-specialty-occupatio...
- x0x0 12y ago
  Dear police: please go home, you're not needed anymore. It's the law, and nobody will ever violate it.
  - bduerst 12y ago
    Dont be crass. If there is evidence of violation, it means the immigration enforcement needs a bigger budget to go after employers. It does not mean we need to cut back on immigration because some citizens have a problem following the law.
    - x0x0 12y ago
      I dunno where you're getting these claims, and by the way it's the companies not citizens, but let's read the previous comments. > LordHumungous : h1bs often get paid less > bduerst: no they don't, because that would be against the law > me: mocks foolishness it's like you're deliberately unaware of companies' very successful efforts to modify the law in self-dealing ways, and even when that fails, to route around the law by stopping enforcement. Or the various well known and widespread h1b abuses that googling for seconds would find for you. Or even seen the list of posted salaries in your office, and noted they were way below market.
      - bduerst 12y ago
        The article linked to was an opinion piece against immigrants, hence the context. I also eluded to there needing to be evidence, which the op piece didn't really provide.

DINKDINK 12y ago

Why would you expect them to be paid the same. Should something that ships from Alaska cost the same as something shipped from your next door neighbor?

DINKDINK 12y ago
Can anyone explain the downvotes? or does the Upton Sinclair quote hold "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"
- paublyrne 12y ago
  The metaphor you used appears to objectify immigrants.
jakevn 12y ago
Companies can take advantage of situations for profit, and that's their right, but the argument needs to be qualified so that we aren't speaking past one another. Are we talking about "should be able to" or "it's the right (for whatever definition of right) thing to do"? I'm going to go with the latter since I have little opinion on the law. For example, a company has the right to ask its programmers to work 80 hours. It's their right to squeeze as much out of their employees as they can. Should they? Should companies be taking advantage of low wages in other countries instead of paying market value? They certainly can chase the profit, but we're talking about people, not goods. At the end of the day, they're paying a person less simply because they know that they have little bargaining room. Some consider it unethical, others do not.
- DINKDINK 12y ago
  "Should companies be taking advantage of low wages in other countries instead of paying market value?" If someone leaves a programming job in India to take a programming job in the USA, they're implicitly saying, This is a better deal for me. The only unethical/anticompetative practice was that someone created an artificial barrier (often pushed through legislation because of xenophobia) to keep "others" out. If you don't think we should the USA should be hiring talented people from India, do you think California should prevent people from Seattle from working in California? Where would you draw the line?
  - jakevn 12y ago
    I don't want to draw the line simply because I think it's too much a matter of opinion. To me, it's not about widely applicable ethics. I think companies should have the right to hire people from other countries and pay them low(er) wages. Or at least, they should have the right until there's some agreeable line that can be drawn (unlikely). I simply would lose respect for that company because I think the decent thing is to pay wages based on merit. I believe paying wages based on where someone is from is on the same level as squeezing as many hours as possible out of your workforce. In my eyes, it's irresponsible and not respectable.

refurb 12y ago

You linked to an article that references a study. Care to share the original data? The Department of Labor has wage floors for H1-Bs (prevailing wage). Company's can't legally pay below that.

jtbigwoo 12y ago
>> The Department of Labor has wage floors for H1-Bs (prevailing wage). Company's can legally pay below that. Companies play games with the experience levels and titles to force wages lower. An "architect" or "developer" gets replaced with an "analyst" or "engineer" making 2/3rds as much.
- shmooth 12y ago
  and H1-B body shops force their workers to work umpteen hours of overtime, bill the clients for it, and H1-B workers get no compensation for all the overtime. and H1-B body shops do shady things like delay payments, take 'fees' out of payments, pay in rupees, etc. http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_26778017/tech-company-paid-employees-from-india-little-1 http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_26778017/tech-company... as go the unions, so go the workers...
dragonwriter 12y ago
Increasing the quantity supplied at the "prevailing wage" by way of H-1B depresses the prevailing wage from rising to what it would be in the absence of the H-1B for the positions for which H-1B has increased the supply (and has knock-on effects for other areas of work, because the Americans that don't get employed in the positions covered by H-1Bs then are competing in fields they otherwise wouldn't be, increasing the quantity supplied at any given price point in those fields.) Its not only basic economics, but if it didn't work that way, there'd be no benefit to employers from the H-1B existing to justify the compliance costs.
- refurb 12y ago
  The point was that companies are underpaying H1-B workers. My argument is that there are floor wages they can't pay below. You're making another point about the impact of immigration. I don't disagree and it extends beyond immigration. If you open a new medical school you're depressing the wages of doctors. Just take a look at what happened to the legal profession.

bduerst 12y ago

This is patently false, and a common misunderstanding of immigrantion laws by U.S. citizens. >Requirement 4 - You must be paid at least the actual or prevailing wage for your occupation, whichever is higher. http://www.uscis.gov/eir/visa-guide/h-1b-specialty-occupation/understanding-h-1b-requirements http://www.uscis.gov/eir/visa-guide/h-1b-specialty-occupatio...

x0x0 12y ago
Dear police: please go home, you're not needed anymore. It's the law, and nobody will ever violate it.
- bduerst 12y ago
  Dont be crass. If there is evidence of violation, it means the immigration enforcement needs a bigger budget to go after employers. It does not mean we need to cut back on immigration because some citizens have a problem following the law.
  - x0x0 12y ago
    I dunno where you're getting these claims, and by the way it's the companies not citizens, but let's read the previous comments. > LordHumungous : h1bs often get paid less > bduerst: no they don't, because that would be against the law > me: mocks foolishness it's like you're deliberately unaware of companies' very successful efforts to modify the law in self-dealing ways, and even when that fails, to route around the law by stopping enforcement. Or the various well known and widespread h1b abuses that googling for seconds would find for you. Or even seen the list of posted salaries in your office, and noted they were way below market.
    - bduerst 12y ago
      The article linked to was an opinion piece against immigrants, hence the context. I also eluded to there needing to be evidence, which the op piece didn't really provide.