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Complaining about mouse chording in Plan 9 is one of those bikeshed arguments that people love to raise all the time. No, you can't "improve" on it without mak

Complaining about mouse chording in Plan 9 is one of those bikeshed arguments that people love to raise all the time. No, you can't "improve" on it without making it something that isn't Acme.

rcarmo 12y ago
I haven't used a mouse on my desktop (any desktop, really) in over four years - I use Apple's Magic Trackpad to get the same experience and precision I have on my laptop. That said, considering that many more people use laptops these days, mouse chording is somewhat passé and hasn't caught up with the times. But I'd actually rather have the window manager work more like other environments (without using different buttons to get different behavior on window edges) and would love an actual compositor and better font rendering.
- smazga 12y ago
  I use a Magic Trackpad, too, and I wonder why the multi-touch can't be used to simulate chording. Aside from that, though, I don't understand why I can't separate Acme/Rio from Plan9. I'd love to explore Plan9 more, but a proper 3-button mouse (when one can be found) is $50+, and (as far as I can determine), I can't just login through a terminal. The UI is, to me, the least interesting aspect...but I can't explore the rest of the system without going through the UI.
  - rcarmo 12y ago
    You can run inferno (which has a similar userland) as a process in Linux, and I have plan9front on a Raspberry Pi that I use as a terminal (with vt and ssh2 to log in to other machines as well as VNC for using a browser remotely).
e12e 12y ago
I agree with your sentiment - but at the same time I've been thinking a bit about this (not-mouse, not keyboard input - and text editing). I think that multi-touch screens might be a good-ish fit for something ACME-like (note: I'm not an ACME user). One-finger to select, two-to (do whatever it is that typically does), three for action etc. Two-finger hold+third-finger-tap. That kind of thing. My main motivation is that I've developed RSS pretty early, and while I can function with a keyboard, using the mouse more than just a little bit, will quickly trigger a fall-back. Add to that, the idea of reducing ten digits to a single (or three) buttons, doesn't strike me as optimal -- only easy (considering a serial interface, simple hardware). That said, efficient, non-strain inducing touch interfaces pretty much dictate the same kind of restrictions that pen-"input" (drawing) does: a drafting table/slanted screen layout -- not vertical screen, horizontal keyboard. And I do think that ACME has some valuable ideas that could help make multi-touch work for efficient text (and other) editing.
- stonogo 12y ago
  I enjoy how many people speculate about "improving" Acme's and Rio's interface without a clear understanding of what that interface entails.
  - e12e 12y ago
    If it entails repetitive strain syndrome, I'll pass. As I understand it it is oriented around three buttons -- I suggest that that might be achieved with multi-touch (I can see how it might be difficult to distinguish "hold-one press two", and "hold-one press three" -- but I don't think it is insurmountable to achieve a lot with proper multi-touch and some smarts). Are you saying my assumption is wrong? (My only idea of ACME (apart from starting it and looking around casually) is Russ Cox' "Tour of ACME"-video posted to HN a while back https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4533156 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4533156 , and the "ACME paper": http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/acme/acme.pdf http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/acme/acme.pdf refereed to by Rob Pike in a /. interview: http://beta.slashdot.org/story/50858 http://beta.slashdot.org/story/50858).

Complaining about mouse chording in Plan 9 is one of those bikeshed arguments that people love to raise all the time. No, you can't "improve" on it without making it something that isn't Acme.

rcarmo 12y ago

I haven't used a mouse on my desktop (any desktop, really) in over four years - I use Apple's Magic Trackpad to get the same experience and precision I have on my laptop. That said, considering that many more people use laptops these days, mouse chording is somewhat passé and hasn't caught up with the times. But I'd actually rather have the window manager work more like other environments (without using different buttons to get different behavior on window edges) and would love an actual compositor and better font rendering.

smazga 12y ago
I use a Magic Trackpad, too, and I wonder why the multi-touch can't be used to simulate chording. Aside from that, though, I don't understand why I can't separate Acme/Rio from Plan9. I'd love to explore Plan9 more, but a proper 3-button mouse (when one can be found) is $50+, and (as far as I can determine), I can't just login through a terminal. The UI is, to me, the least interesting aspect...but I can't explore the rest of the system without going through the UI.
- rcarmo 12y ago
  You can run inferno (which has a similar userland) as a process in Linux, and I have plan9front on a Raspberry Pi that I use as a terminal (with vt and ssh2 to log in to other machines as well as VNC for using a browser remotely).

e12e 12y ago

I agree with your sentiment - but at the same time I've been thinking a bit about this (not-mouse, not keyboard input - and text editing). I think that multi-touch screens might be a good-ish fit for something ACME-like (note: I'm not an ACME user). One-finger to select, two-to (do whatever it is that typically does), three for action etc. Two-finger hold+third-finger-tap. That kind of thing. My main motivation is that I've developed RSS pretty early, and while I can function with a keyboard, using the mouse more than just a little bit, will quickly trigger a fall-back. Add to that, the idea of reducing ten digits to a single (or three) buttons, doesn't strike me as optimal -- only easy (considering a serial interface, simple hardware). That said, efficient, non-strain inducing touch interfaces pretty much dictate the same kind of restrictions that pen-"input" (drawing) does: a drafting table/slanted screen layout -- not vertical screen, horizontal keyboard. And I do think that ACME has some valuable ideas that could help make multi-touch work for efficient text (and other) editing.

stonogo 12y ago
I enjoy how many people speculate about "improving" Acme's and Rio's interface without a clear understanding of what that interface entails.
- e12e 12y ago
  If it entails repetitive strain syndrome, I'll pass. As I understand it it is oriented around three buttons -- I suggest that that might be achieved with multi-touch (I can see how it might be difficult to distinguish "hold-one press two", and "hold-one press three" -- but I don't think it is insurmountable to achieve a lot with proper multi-touch and some smarts). Are you saying my assumption is wrong? (My only idea of ACME (apart from starting it and looking around casually) is Russ Cox' "Tour of ACME"-video posted to HN a while back https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4533156 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4533156 , and the "ACME paper": http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/acme/acme.pdf http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/acme/acme.pdf refereed to by Rob Pike in a /. interview: http://beta.slashdot.org/story/50858 http://beta.slashdot.org/story/50858).