4 ms·

"Mouse usage is obligatory. You cannot use the acme editor, for instance, without frequently taking your hand off the keyboard." - in my opinion this is a disad

by reirob 12y ago

"Mouse usage is obligatory. You cannot use the acme editor, for instance, without frequently taking your hand off the keyboard." - in my opinion this is a disadvantage and I wonder if this can be improved and if so, in which way.

Sir_Cmpwn 12y ago
Vim for Plan 9: http://www.vmsplice.net/9vim.html http://www.vmsplice.net/9vim.html
vezzy-fnord 12y ago
Complaining about mouse chording in Plan 9 is one of those bikeshed arguments that people love to raise all the time. No, you can't "improve" on it without making it something that isn't Acme.
- rcarmo 12y ago
  I haven't used a mouse on my desktop (any desktop, really) in over four years - I use Apple's Magic Trackpad to get the same experience and precision I have on my laptop. That said, considering that many more people use laptops these days, mouse chording is somewhat passé and hasn't caught up with the times. But I'd actually rather have the window manager work more like other environments (without using different buttons to get different behavior on window edges) and would love an actual compositor and better font rendering.
  - smazga 12y ago
    I use a Magic Trackpad, too, and I wonder why the multi-touch can't be used to simulate chording. Aside from that, though, I don't understand why I can't separate Acme/Rio from Plan9. I'd love to explore Plan9 more, but a proper 3-button mouse (when one can be found) is $50+, and (as far as I can determine), I can't just login through a terminal. The UI is, to me, the least interesting aspect...but I can't explore the rest of the system without going through the UI.
    - rcarmo 12y ago
      You can run inferno (which has a similar userland) as a process in Linux, and I have plan9front on a Raspberry Pi that I use as a terminal (with vt and ssh2 to log in to other machines as well as VNC for using a browser remotely).
- e12e 12y ago
  I agree with your sentiment - but at the same time I've been thinking a bit about this (not-mouse, not keyboard input - and text editing). I think that multi-touch screens might be a good-ish fit for something ACME-like (note: I'm not an ACME user). One-finger to select, two-to (do whatever it is that typically does), three for action etc. Two-finger hold+third-finger-tap. That kind of thing. My main motivation is that I've developed RSS pretty early, and while I can function with a keyboard, using the mouse more than just a little bit, will quickly trigger a fall-back. Add to that, the idea of reducing ten digits to a single (or three) buttons, doesn't strike me as optimal -- only easy (considering a serial interface, simple hardware). That said, efficient, non-strain inducing touch interfaces pretty much dictate the same kind of restrictions that pen-"input" (drawing) does: a drafting table/slanted screen layout -- not vertical screen, horizontal keyboard. And I do think that ACME has some valuable ideas that could help make multi-touch work for efficient text (and other) editing.
  - stonogo 12y ago
    I enjoy how many people speculate about "improving" Acme's and Rio's interface without a clear understanding of what that interface entails.
    - e12e 12y ago
      If it entails repetitive strain syndrome, I'll pass. As I understand it it is oriented around three buttons -- I suggest that that might be achieved with multi-touch (I can see how it might be difficult to distinguish "hold-one press two", and "hold-one press three" -- but I don't think it is insurmountable to achieve a lot with proper multi-touch and some smarts). Are you saying my assumption is wrong? (My only idea of ACME (apart from starting it and looking around casually) is Russ Cox' "Tour of ACME"-video posted to HN a while back https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4533156 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4533156 , and the "ACME paper": http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/acme/acme.pdf http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/acme/acme.pdf refereed to by Rob Pike in a /. interview: http://beta.slashdot.org/story/50858 http://beta.slashdot.org/story/50858).
smorrow 12y ago
If it's any consolation to you, 9front types keep on adding more and more fiddly multi-key shortcuts. Eventually it'll be like suckless, where you need the man page to even open a shell. Pretty opaque interface. Re: taking your hand off the keyboard: I find that once you get to multiple modifiers and/or you go outside of alphanumerics, you've got to take your EYES off the SCREEN, which is worse. You know, you see people commenting about the mouse, but you never see anyone say "you know, if there's one thing I don't want, it's getting to anywhere on the screen just by looking at it!" But that's what the mouse is. You can point at anything almost as quickly as you can point your eyes at it. I can't believe I'm commenting (yet again) in another one of these cringey Plan 9 threads, where nobody knows anything and everybody thinks they're an authority... but there you go.
- reirob 12y ago
  Sorry for having made you comment - it was really not my intention to make people bitter. You are absolutely right that I don't know anything about Plan9 - I have not yet used it and I don't want to be an authority. I just like its architecture and that's the reason that I read the articles that pop up. Who knows maybe one day I'll use it. Now regarding my opinion: I have nothing against the mouse, I use it a lot - and actually in my case I don't even have to take my hands off the keyboard to use it, it's a Thinkpad trackpoint and I love it. And because it's one of the model from 2 years before it actually has 3 physical buttons. But what I wanted to say, is that I like to use the keyboard if it's possible. I am of the vi league, so if I work in the terminal, in the editor or in REPLs and I have the vi bindings working, it makes me so snappy and happy (and I don't have to take my eyes off the screen - touchtyping ;). That said, I absolutely agree, that using vi key-binding is visually opaque and therefore it must never be the only option, but just an option that maybe could be switched on. But, please take it as just my opinion. It's not even a complaint. I would love to see Plan9 getting more attention.
  - smorrow 12y ago
    > Sorry for having made you comment - it was really not my intention to make people bitter. I don't think I meant it in that way, but thanks. > vi Since we're now talking about editors. If there's people that want to use keyboardy text editors, fine by me. There's definitely a logic to it. But the "control your window manager with vi-like keybindings" crowd: I can't even comprehend what type of mindset chooses this, except some sort of delusional one. If there's one thing that can get me ranting...
runjake 12y ago
> in my opinion this is a disadvantage That is why it is listed under the "Gotchas" heading, rather than "Features".

by reirob 12y ago

Sir_Cmpwn 12y ago

Vim for Plan 9: http://www.vmsplice.net/9vim.html http://www.vmsplice.net/9vim.html

vezzy-fnord 12y ago

Complaining about mouse chording in Plan 9 is one of those bikeshed arguments that people love to raise all the time. No, you can't "improve" on it without making it something that isn't Acme.

rcarmo 12y ago
I haven't used a mouse on my desktop (any desktop, really) in over four years - I use Apple's Magic Trackpad to get the same experience and precision I have on my laptop. That said, considering that many more people use laptops these days, mouse chording is somewhat passé and hasn't caught up with the times. But I'd actually rather have the window manager work more like other environments (without using different buttons to get different behavior on window edges) and would love an actual compositor and better font rendering.
- smazga 12y ago
  I use a Magic Trackpad, too, and I wonder why the multi-touch can't be used to simulate chording. Aside from that, though, I don't understand why I can't separate Acme/Rio from Plan9. I'd love to explore Plan9 more, but a proper 3-button mouse (when one can be found) is $50+, and (as far as I can determine), I can't just login through a terminal. The UI is, to me, the least interesting aspect...but I can't explore the rest of the system without going through the UI.
  - rcarmo 12y ago
    You can run inferno (which has a similar userland) as a process in Linux, and I have plan9front on a Raspberry Pi that I use as a terminal (with vt and ssh2 to log in to other machines as well as VNC for using a browser remotely).
e12e 12y ago
I agree with your sentiment - but at the same time I've been thinking a bit about this (not-mouse, not keyboard input - and text editing). I think that multi-touch screens might be a good-ish fit for something ACME-like (note: I'm not an ACME user). One-finger to select, two-to (do whatever it is that typically does), three for action etc. Two-finger hold+third-finger-tap. That kind of thing. My main motivation is that I've developed RSS pretty early, and while I can function with a keyboard, using the mouse more than just a little bit, will quickly trigger a fall-back. Add to that, the idea of reducing ten digits to a single (or three) buttons, doesn't strike me as optimal -- only easy (considering a serial interface, simple hardware). That said, efficient, non-strain inducing touch interfaces pretty much dictate the same kind of restrictions that pen-"input" (drawing) does: a drafting table/slanted screen layout -- not vertical screen, horizontal keyboard. And I do think that ACME has some valuable ideas that could help make multi-touch work for efficient text (and other) editing.
- stonogo 12y ago
  I enjoy how many people speculate about "improving" Acme's and Rio's interface without a clear understanding of what that interface entails.
  - e12e 12y ago
    If it entails repetitive strain syndrome, I'll pass. As I understand it it is oriented around three buttons -- I suggest that that might be achieved with multi-touch (I can see how it might be difficult to distinguish "hold-one press two", and "hold-one press three" -- but I don't think it is insurmountable to achieve a lot with proper multi-touch and some smarts). Are you saying my assumption is wrong? (My only idea of ACME (apart from starting it and looking around casually) is Russ Cox' "Tour of ACME"-video posted to HN a while back https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4533156 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4533156 , and the "ACME paper": http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/acme/acme.pdf http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/acme/acme.pdf refereed to by Rob Pike in a /. interview: http://beta.slashdot.org/story/50858 http://beta.slashdot.org/story/50858).

smorrow 12y ago

If it's any consolation to you, 9front types keep on adding more and more fiddly multi-key shortcuts. Eventually it'll be like suckless, where you need the man page to even open a shell. Pretty opaque interface. Re: taking your hand off the keyboard: I find that once you get to multiple modifiers and/or you go outside of alphanumerics, you've got to take your EYES off the SCREEN, which is worse. You know, you see people commenting about the mouse, but you never see anyone say "you know, if there's one thing I don't want, it's getting to anywhere on the screen just by looking at it!" But that's what the mouse is. You can point at anything almost as quickly as you can point your eyes at it. I can't believe I'm commenting (yet again) in another one of these cringey Plan 9 threads, where nobody knows anything and everybody thinks they're an authority... but there you go.

reirob 12y ago
Sorry for having made you comment - it was really not my intention to make people bitter. You are absolutely right that I don't know anything about Plan9 - I have not yet used it and I don't want to be an authority. I just like its architecture and that's the reason that I read the articles that pop up. Who knows maybe one day I'll use it. Now regarding my opinion: I have nothing against the mouse, I use it a lot - and actually in my case I don't even have to take my hands off the keyboard to use it, it's a Thinkpad trackpoint and I love it. And because it's one of the model from 2 years before it actually has 3 physical buttons. But what I wanted to say, is that I like to use the keyboard if it's possible. I am of the vi league, so if I work in the terminal, in the editor or in REPLs and I have the vi bindings working, it makes me so snappy and happy (and I don't have to take my eyes off the screen - touchtyping ;). That said, I absolutely agree, that using vi key-binding is visually opaque and therefore it must never be the only option, but just an option that maybe could be switched on. But, please take it as just my opinion. It's not even a complaint. I would love to see Plan9 getting more attention.
- smorrow 12y ago
  > Sorry for having made you comment - it was really not my intention to make people bitter. I don't think I meant it in that way, but thanks. > vi Since we're now talking about editors. If there's people that want to use keyboardy text editors, fine by me. There's definitely a logic to it. But the "control your window manager with vi-like keybindings" crowd: I can't even comprehend what type of mindset chooses this, except some sort of delusional one. If there's one thing that can get me ranting...

runjake 12y ago

> in my opinion this is a disadvantage That is why it is listed under the "Gotchas" heading, rather than "Features".