6 ms·

Gil & Azul have always been very focused on their particular market segment, but it's not a solution that suits every workload or can be deployed generally (C4

Gil & Azul have always been very focused on their particular market segment, but it's not a solution that suits every workload or can be deployed generally (C4 requires OS enhancements to operate).

nickik 12y ago
I have not suggested that they put C4 or the orginal passless as a standard. While they did focuse on a perticular market segment the performance and paustime numbers they showed could easly have been usful for tons and tons of other markets. While C4 does currently require OS enhancements, they could make it without it, it would just be slower. However the problem that Azul has tried to overcome with the OS could have been much more powerful attacked with the full force of oracle/sun behind it. They once put some linux patches but it was never there focus and it never went upstream. At a big company this technogoly could have had a bigger impact, they could have talked to microsoft, apple and the linux team. I know that Azul also tried to strike up a conversation with Intel but in there words "it was like moving a mountain". And im not suggesting Sun/Oracle should have done this for the greater good of all humans. They would would have created a gigantig benefit for java products over the competition C# and C++ in the server space. I rember talks by Cliff Click that mentioned that they were really suprised that Sun did not have more intresst in them, considering some simple things that Sun could have to get huge increses in some of the high end server systems they were selling (am searching for the refernce ...). Edit: See Cliff Click talk about intel and sun. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uljtqyBLxI& http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uljtqyBLxI& t=54m33s He mentions that the sun shareholders should put there exutive staff into prison.
- rikf 12y ago
  I agree with everything you said. Here is an interesting lwn article from when the azule people originally tried to push their change/enhancements upstream. http://lwn.net/Articles/392307/ http://lwn.net/Articles/392307/ Seems like either the quality wasnt there or the linux people where resistant to change. Some more info here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:AzulPM/Managed_Runtime_Initiative http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:AzulPM/Managed_Runtime_Ini... Its a pitty that this type of GC hasn't found widespread use because it gives us the best of both worlds, in terms of automatics memory management and performance. edit for spelling mistake
  - nickik 12y ago
    Well I think it was not there fault and not the linux peoples fault. I have read everything I could find on this. The linux people are write to not just exept code from outsider into there most importent subsystems like the scheduler. Azul did more of a code dumb then really try to get patches upstream. If they had taken the time to split up there code into diffrent patches and then take the time to explain why they needed it, why lots of other people also needed it, they might have gotten lot of it threw, or at least get the conversation rolling on what the linux guys could do to make managed runtimes faster. Its of course also true that managed runtimes are not what linux kernal hackers focus on. So it boils down to Azul guys not having enougth time to do it right and the linux people were not exited enougth to roll withit themself. Maybe there was a lot more talk going on in the background, but I at least could not find much more on this.
  - nfa_backward 12y ago
    It looks like their attention has turned to LLVM. http://www.philipreames.com/Blog/2014/06/04/code-for-late-safepoint-placement-available/ http://www.philipreames.com/Blog/2014/06/04/code-for-late-sa... http://www.azulsystems.com/about_us/careers/llvm-compiler-engineer http://www.azulsystems.com/about_us/careers/llvm-compiler-en...
    - hga 12y ago
      I've been following Philip Reames' blog, it's good to see LLVM get some serious precise GC love. Reading the job advert, I would have to wonder if they want to avoid an all in, 100% bet on the Hotspot JVM, not to mention strict JVMs in general. I wouldn't be surprised if they have the best concentration of knowledge on Hotspot in the world, including Oracle, might be getting a bit tired of it, and certainly would know the limitations of its code base by now.
      - chrisseaton 12y ago
        There's always Graal - OracleLabs' JVM compiler implemented in Java - for new experiments in compilation
      - 12y ago
- sitkack 12y ago
  I know, they could have rolled Azul tech into the UltraSparc and made truly amazing hardware platform for the JVM that was a _couple_ orders of magnitude ahead of the competition.

Gil & Azul have always been very focused on their particular market segment, but it's not a solution that suits every workload or can be deployed generally (C4 requires OS enhancements to operate).

nickik 12y ago

I have not suggested that they put C4 or the orginal passless as a standard. While they did focuse on a perticular market segment the performance and paustime numbers they showed could easly have been usful for tons and tons of other markets. While C4 does currently require OS enhancements, they could make it without it, it would just be slower. However the problem that Azul has tried to overcome with the OS could have been much more powerful attacked with the full force of oracle/sun behind it. They once put some linux patches but it was never there focus and it never went upstream. At a big company this technogoly could have had a bigger impact, they could have talked to microsoft, apple and the linux team. I know that Azul also tried to strike up a conversation with Intel but in there words "it was like moving a mountain". And im not suggesting Sun/Oracle should have done this for the greater good of all humans. They would would have created a gigantig benefit for java products over the competition C# and C++ in the server space. I rember talks by Cliff Click that mentioned that they were really suprised that Sun did not have more intresst in them, considering some simple things that Sun could have to get huge increses in some of the high end server systems they were selling (am searching for the refernce ...). Edit: See Cliff Click talk about intel and sun. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uljtqyBLxI& http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uljtqyBLxI& t=54m33s He mentions that the sun shareholders should put there exutive staff into prison.

rikf 12y ago
I agree with everything you said. Here is an interesting lwn article from when the azule people originally tried to push their change/enhancements upstream. http://lwn.net/Articles/392307/ http://lwn.net/Articles/392307/ Seems like either the quality wasnt there or the linux people where resistant to change. Some more info here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:AzulPM/Managed_Runtime_Initiative http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:AzulPM/Managed_Runtime_Ini... Its a pitty that this type of GC hasn't found widespread use because it gives us the best of both worlds, in terms of automatics memory management and performance. edit for spelling mistake
- nickik 12y ago
  Well I think it was not there fault and not the linux peoples fault. I have read everything I could find on this. The linux people are write to not just exept code from outsider into there most importent subsystems like the scheduler. Azul did more of a code dumb then really try to get patches upstream. If they had taken the time to split up there code into diffrent patches and then take the time to explain why they needed it, why lots of other people also needed it, they might have gotten lot of it threw, or at least get the conversation rolling on what the linux guys could do to make managed runtimes faster. Its of course also true that managed runtimes are not what linux kernal hackers focus on. So it boils down to Azul guys not having enougth time to do it right and the linux people were not exited enougth to roll withit themself. Maybe there was a lot more talk going on in the background, but I at least could not find much more on this.
- nfa_backward 12y ago
  It looks like their attention has turned to LLVM. http://www.philipreames.com/Blog/2014/06/04/code-for-late-safepoint-placement-available/ http://www.philipreames.com/Blog/2014/06/04/code-for-late-sa... http://www.azulsystems.com/about_us/careers/llvm-compiler-engineer http://www.azulsystems.com/about_us/careers/llvm-compiler-en...
  - hga 12y ago
    I've been following Philip Reames' blog, it's good to see LLVM get some serious precise GC love. Reading the job advert, I would have to wonder if they want to avoid an all in, 100% bet on the Hotspot JVM, not to mention strict JVMs in general. I wouldn't be surprised if they have the best concentration of knowledge on Hotspot in the world, including Oracle, might be getting a bit tired of it, and certainly would know the limitations of its code base by now.
    - chrisseaton 12y ago
      There's always Graal - OracleLabs' JVM compiler implemented in Java - for new experiments in compilation
    - 12y ago
sitkack 12y ago
I know, they could have rolled Azul tech into the UltraSparc and made truly amazing hardware platform for the JVM that was a _couple_ orders of magnitude ahead of the competition.