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I find it very strange that one of the most important tests that US students take is a bombardment of multiple choice questions. The equivalent where I am from

by exDM69 12y ago

I find it very strange that one of the most important tests that US students take is a bombardment of multiple choice questions. The equivalent where I am from is written essays and/or math, physics, chemistry exercises (ie. calculation) where you have to have all intermediate steps visible (which means you have an chance of scoring a few points even if the final answer is incorrect). You take four to eight exams during a period of two weeks (opportunity to participate is twice a year), six hours per exam. In language exams, there's a listening comprehension part (in addition to the six hours of written exam) where you listen to a recording and answer multiple choice or with a few sentences. The method used here is not entirely problem-free either but it's a whole lot more practical than having a long string of multiple choice questions where you have a 25% chance by guessing and you get to know all the possible answers. This is not really representative of what you need in life or what you'll encounter in later studies in College/University.

rtpg 12y ago
A lot of countries do this, and the biggest issue is a practical one: it takes a long time to correct. Multiple choice you can just stick it into a machine. Just another example of how most guiding principles in US school systems are due to a lack of resources. We can only hope that some innovative people will be able to get around this (big advantage of US system is experimentation at the local level)
- danieltillett 12y ago
  It is not a lack of resources, it is a resource allocation problem. The usa is one of the highest spenders on education in the world, but for some reason can't manage to find the money to test correctly.
- illumen 12y ago
  Efficient use of resources is a thing as well. Many places use their resources better, and prioritise areas like education. Education, which people pay the state for, is failing in the USA. With 49% functional illiteracy, it is a catastrophic failure.
- ghshephard 12y ago
  Re: "lack of resources" The United States spends more per student on education than any other country in the world, by a large margin. See http://www.oecd.org/education/skills-beyond-school/48630868.pdf http://www.oecd.org/education/skills-beyond-school/48630868...., page 206. Lack of resources has never been a problem with the US education system, it's been the management of them.
learnstats2 12y ago
I teach SATs to foreigners. The SATs are criticised for this within the US as well, but in truth I think they form better preparation for college. No international exam predicts university performance, but (as I recall) the SAT does no worse than any other. In fact the US does a pretty good job of undergraduate studies. If 15 of the top 20 universities are in the US then something is working. I will list a few reasons why I prefer the SAT system - Foreign exams: "you have an chance of scoring a few points even if the final answer is incorrect". In this respect, the foreign exams are giving you credit for being wrong but well-intentioned. Is that a desirable quality? That you know what to do, but you can't do it in practice? IMO giving credit for partial answers to basic knowledge questions is a highly dubious practice. Whereas, strategies for answering the multiple choice questions effectively require extremely quick and subtle logic. A lot of foreign students don't really understand why these multiple choice exams are difficult - until they realise they are failing. You have to be knowledgeable, and also logical about your knowledge, under significant time pressure. The statistics of what happens to guessers in multiple-choice questions is very easy to examine (and they won't pass). The statistics of what happens to bullshitters in essays is not very easy to examine (they might pass with minimal knowledge, if they can fool the examiner successfully or hit upon a lucky essay). The fact that the test is standardised and asks questions from a basic and fixed set of knowledge means that universities know exactly what set of things the arriving undergraduates will know, and can target the first year courses appropriately to first year students. This is something that other systems fail by a huge margin. I mean, it just doesn't happen correctly elsewhere - a majority of first year students are left struggling for a significantly wasteful period of time, because the universities have not understood what the core intersection of knowledge the intake have. The SAT is simple enough (in knowledge terms) that US schools are free to teach any extension courses in any direction that they like, allowing much more creativity in teaching and learning. Most schools internationally have become exam factories focussed only on the final exams, and the retaking of those final exams. Having taught both systems, I prefer the SAT system and I think it does a far better educational job.
- exDM69 12y ago
  > Foreign exams: "you have an chance of scoring a few points even if the final answer is incorrect". In this respect, the foreign exams are giving you credit for being wrong but well-intentioned. Is that a desirable quality? This is definitely a desirable quality in math/physics/chemistry exams. If you make a very long calculation (some of the exam questions require a full sheet of paper to calculate) almost perfectly but make a mistake on the second-to-last row, you should get your 4 out of 6 points or so. Good point about language barriers, though. There are lots of smart people who have to participate in a test that is not their native language, in the US and elsewhere. History exams should be about knowledge and understanding of history - if your language skills aren't that great, you'll inevitably lose a few points because of the poor quality essay you can produce. > The fact that the test is standardised and asks questions from a basic and fixed set of knowledge means that universities know exactly what set of things the arriving undergraduates will know, Our tests are standardized too (and same questions nationwide, changing every year). They're just not multiple choice questions. You make a good point about flexibility too. Our education in the few years preceding the exam were a bit too focused on the finals. I guess in that respect the SAT has a small advantage if they allow a more flexible curriculum in the preceeding years.
spacecowboy_lon 12y ago
American Universities are 4 years and you don't get the same specilaistion like do in some countrys for exampel in the UK where the last two years you do your 3 or 4 A level subjects to prep for Uni where you dont have the major/minor destiction
hessenwolf 12y ago
Very similar to the Irish system. The only thing we miss out on I think is Oral exams at university, as per certain Continental universities, e.g., German, Italy.
barry-cotter 12y ago
I find it very strange that one of the most important tests that US students take is a bombardment of multiple choice questions. I find it very strange too big that doesn't mean it doesn't work. One of the interesting findings from the psychometrics of intelligence testing/g is that given sufficient motivation all tests are culture fair. You can work really hard to make a test that is approximately as fair to chimps as humans (Raven's Progressive Matrices) or you can decide on a corpus of culturally bound knowledge and publish the requirements and given sufficient preparation time the rank ordering will be approximately the same. I'm presuming you're European as well, right? The truth is the SAT/GRE/GMAT/LSAT/MCAT are so highly g loaded that they're good IQ tests and our school leaving/college entrance exams are a combination IQ test and conscientiousness test. There will also be small effects for pitch perception in music but seriously the poor reliability of any one SAT question is irrelevant given enough of them. In the limit statistics don't lie. Not that there's anything wrong with complex summative exams, I'll support anything from economics quals to continental philosophy as the subject to be examined for rankings because for most purposes it's the rankings, not the substance that's important. The method used here is not entirely problem-free either but it's a whole lot more practical than having a long string of multiple choice questions where you have a 25% chance by guessing and you get to know all the possible answers. This is not really representative of what you need in life or what you'll encounter in later studies in College/University. Practicality is a false idol. Higher (and lower) education is more sorting/signalling than training. This can be blatant like Iran/Japan/Korea/USA where what university you got into is much more important than what you studied or what grade you got in the end, middling like the UK where there's a first tier (Oxbridge), a second (Russell Group) and also rans or other varieties like Germany (all universities are approximately equal, grades are approximately equivalent) or France (like Germany mostly with the grandes ecoles as very specialised high prestige schools). Some courses (ones that teach useful knowledge independent of ranking, like nursing or engineering) will have strangely higher salary averages for low prestige universities than one would expect, and the range for the comparable graduates of better universities will be oddly compressed. Education is underrated, schooling the opposite.
debacle 12y ago
You have to remember that the US has to cater to every state in the union, some which have some of the best education in the world and some that have the education system of a third world nation. In my state, tests are pretty much exactly how you describe, because we have a relatively good education system. Students who come from our high schools can usually test out of almost a semester's worth of courses when they enter college. In the state one of my friends is from, there's still controversy over teaching evolution and accepted cosmology theories, and many students need to take remedial courses on entering college because their high school education has so many gaps.
eitally 12y ago
This is roughly equivalent to the SAT subject area tests (or the GRE subject tests for graduate school admissions). It's not that these don't exist in the US, it's just that if you're teaching rote memorization, the best proof of success is quizzing on rote memorization. For better or for worse, it does demonstrate instantaneous knowledge, which indicates students' correlative ability to learn, which in turn indicates worthiness for admission to elective higher education. It's certainly not perfect, but it's not the worst thing in the world. It does favor higher socioeconomic classes, though, for a variety of reasons. The good news for Americans, though, is that we have enough colleges and universities to accommodate anyone who wants to learn, no matter what their high school record may be.

by exDM69 12y ago

rtpg 12y ago

A lot of countries do this, and the biggest issue is a practical one: it takes a long time to correct. Multiple choice you can just stick it into a machine. Just another example of how most guiding principles in US school systems are due to a lack of resources. We can only hope that some innovative people will be able to get around this (big advantage of US system is experimentation at the local level)

danieltillett 12y ago
It is not a lack of resources, it is a resource allocation problem. The usa is one of the highest spenders on education in the world, but for some reason can't manage to find the money to test correctly.
illumen 12y ago
Efficient use of resources is a thing as well. Many places use their resources better, and prioritise areas like education. Education, which people pay the state for, is failing in the USA. With 49% functional illiteracy, it is a catastrophic failure.
ghshephard 12y ago
Re: "lack of resources" The United States spends more per student on education than any other country in the world, by a large margin. See http://www.oecd.org/education/skills-beyond-school/48630868.pdf http://www.oecd.org/education/skills-beyond-school/48630868...., page 206. Lack of resources has never been a problem with the US education system, it's been the management of them.

learnstats2 12y ago

I teach SATs to foreigners. The SATs are criticised for this within the US as well, but in truth I think they form better preparation for college. No international exam predicts university performance, but (as I recall) the SAT does no worse than any other. In fact the US does a pretty good job of undergraduate studies. If 15 of the top 20 universities are in the US then something is working. I will list a few reasons why I prefer the SAT system - Foreign exams: "you have an chance of scoring a few points even if the final answer is incorrect". In this respect, the foreign exams are giving you credit for being wrong but well-intentioned. Is that a desirable quality? That you know what to do, but you can't do it in practice? IMO giving credit for partial answers to basic knowledge questions is a highly dubious practice. Whereas, strategies for answering the multiple choice questions effectively require extremely quick and subtle logic. A lot of foreign students don't really understand why these multiple choice exams are difficult - until they realise they are failing. You have to be knowledgeable, and also logical about your knowledge, under significant time pressure. The statistics of what happens to guessers in multiple-choice questions is very easy to examine (and they won't pass). The statistics of what happens to bullshitters in essays is not very easy to examine (they might pass with minimal knowledge, if they can fool the examiner successfully or hit upon a lucky essay). The fact that the test is standardised and asks questions from a basic and fixed set of knowledge means that universities know exactly what set of things the arriving undergraduates will know, and can target the first year courses appropriately to first year students. This is something that other systems fail by a huge margin. I mean, it just doesn't happen correctly elsewhere - a majority of first year students are left struggling for a significantly wasteful period of time, because the universities have not understood what the core intersection of knowledge the intake have. The SAT is simple enough (in knowledge terms) that US schools are free to teach any extension courses in any direction that they like, allowing much more creativity in teaching and learning. Most schools internationally have become exam factories focussed only on the final exams, and the retaking of those final exams. Having taught both systems, I prefer the SAT system and I think it does a far better educational job.

exDM69 12y ago
> Foreign exams: "you have an chance of scoring a few points even if the final answer is incorrect". In this respect, the foreign exams are giving you credit for being wrong but well-intentioned. Is that a desirable quality? This is definitely a desirable quality in math/physics/chemistry exams. If you make a very long calculation (some of the exam questions require a full sheet of paper to calculate) almost perfectly but make a mistake on the second-to-last row, you should get your 4 out of 6 points or so. Good point about language barriers, though. There are lots of smart people who have to participate in a test that is not their native language, in the US and elsewhere. History exams should be about knowledge and understanding of history - if your language skills aren't that great, you'll inevitably lose a few points because of the poor quality essay you can produce. > The fact that the test is standardised and asks questions from a basic and fixed set of knowledge means that universities know exactly what set of things the arriving undergraduates will know, Our tests are standardized too (and same questions nationwide, changing every year). They're just not multiple choice questions. You make a good point about flexibility too. Our education in the few years preceding the exam were a bit too focused on the finals. I guess in that respect the SAT has a small advantage if they allow a more flexible curriculum in the preceeding years.

spacecowboy_lon 12y ago

American Universities are 4 years and you don't get the same specilaistion like do in some countrys for exampel in the UK where the last two years you do your 3 or 4 A level subjects to prep for Uni where you dont have the major/minor destiction

hessenwolf 12y ago

Very similar to the Irish system. The only thing we miss out on I think is Oral exams at university, as per certain Continental universities, e.g., German, Italy.

barry-cotter 12y ago

I find it very strange that one of the most important tests that US students take is a bombardment of multiple choice questions. I find it very strange too big that doesn't mean it doesn't work. One of the interesting findings from the psychometrics of intelligence testing/g is that given sufficient motivation all tests are culture fair. You can work really hard to make a test that is approximately as fair to chimps as humans (Raven's Progressive Matrices) or you can decide on a corpus of culturally bound knowledge and publish the requirements and given sufficient preparation time the rank ordering will be approximately the same. I'm presuming you're European as well, right? The truth is the SAT/GRE/GMAT/LSAT/MCAT are so highly g loaded that they're good IQ tests and our school leaving/college entrance exams are a combination IQ test and conscientiousness test. There will also be small effects for pitch perception in music but seriously the poor reliability of any one SAT question is irrelevant given enough of them. In the limit statistics don't lie. Not that there's anything wrong with complex summative exams, I'll support anything from economics quals to continental philosophy as the subject to be examined for rankings because for most purposes it's the rankings, not the substance that's important. The method used here is not entirely problem-free either but it's a whole lot more practical than having a long string of multiple choice questions where you have a 25% chance by guessing and you get to know all the possible answers. This is not really representative of what you need in life or what you'll encounter in later studies in College/University. Practicality is a false idol. Higher (and lower) education is more sorting/signalling than training. This can be blatant like Iran/Japan/Korea/USA where what university you got into is much more important than what you studied or what grade you got in the end, middling like the UK where there's a first tier (Oxbridge), a second (Russell Group) and also rans or other varieties like Germany (all universities are approximately equal, grades are approximately equivalent) or France (like Germany mostly with the grandes ecoles as very specialised high prestige schools). Some courses (ones that teach useful knowledge independent of ranking, like nursing or engineering) will have strangely higher salary averages for low prestige universities than one would expect, and the range for the comparable graduates of better universities will be oddly compressed. Education is underrated, schooling the opposite.

debacle 12y ago

You have to remember that the US has to cater to every state in the union, some which have some of the best education in the world and some that have the education system of a third world nation. In my state, tests are pretty much exactly how you describe, because we have a relatively good education system. Students who come from our high schools can usually test out of almost a semester's worth of courses when they enter college. In the state one of my friends is from, there's still controversy over teaching evolution and accepted cosmology theories, and many students need to take remedial courses on entering college because their high school education has so many gaps.

eitally 12y ago

This is roughly equivalent to the SAT subject area tests (or the GRE subject tests for graduate school admissions). It's not that these don't exist in the US, it's just that if you're teaching rote memorization, the best proof of success is quizzing on rote memorization. For better or for worse, it does demonstrate instantaneous knowledge, which indicates students' correlative ability to learn, which in turn indicates worthiness for admission to elective higher education. It's certainly not perfect, but it's not the worst thing in the world. It does favor higher socioeconomic classes, though, for a variety of reasons. The good news for Americans, though, is that we have enough colleges and universities to accommodate anyone who wants to learn, no matter what their high school record may be.