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Let's jump this over to a topical thought experiment. A new programmer is hired in your office, who happens to be a woman. She seems to doing ok in her new jo

Let's jump this over to a topical thought experiment. A new programmer is hired in your office, who happens to be a woman. She seems to doing ok in her new job, getting things done. She seems fine with it. Her boss seems fine with it. Neither her nor her boss show any signs of dissatisfaction with her work situation. Do you go by every now and then while she's working and ask "Hey, do you need any help?" You don't habitually ask anyone else that question. Do you see how that could be a negative? Do you understand why she might take it as condescending?

sillysaurus3 12y ago
You know, when I started this discussion, I didn't expect if to lead to someone comparing being a woman to being mentally ill, or I wouldn't have said anything. Maybe this is what pg meant that "forums can't be trusted with certain topics."
- waterlesscloud 12y ago
  You know, when I made my post, I considered you might try to defensively avoid it with precisely this tactic. But then I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt. I see now this was a mistake. You said you couldn't see how "Do you need any help?" could possibly be negative. I tried to offer a scenario that could help you understand. I did so in good faith. I don't really appreciate you turning that into an attack.
  - sillysaurus3 12y ago
    In what possible context is that a fair comparison? The former is a health issue. The latter is a social issue. They aren't comparable. No, I wouldn't ask if she needed help. Women aren't helpless. But mentally ill people might be.
    - waterlesscloud 12y ago
      It's not a "comparison", it's a thought experiment intended to get you out of your regular thinking. Not something to be interpreted in the worst way you can imagine. Based on what you've just said, can you see how assuming a mentally ill person is helpless can be a negative to them? As you say, asking if they need help carries the implication they are helpless. If you observe them and they seem to be getting along fine, why assume they're helpless? Why imply that by asking if they need help?
      - sillysaurus3 12y ago
        I apologize for my extreme reaction to your thought experiment. I just have a close relationship with one particular woman who recently started programming, and I was mainly thinking like "how would she feel if she read that?" But since I'm not a woman, I guess I'll leave those sorts of reactions to other people. Plus, I really don't like making people feel bad. And I appreciate that you acted in good faith. I understand how people might be slighted by an offer of assistance. I just thought that by definition, mentally ill people need help. It's in the name. But this whole experience has been pretty eye-opening, so I don't know what to think anymore.
        waterlesscloud 12y ago
        Thanks. I apologize for coming back hard on it. People online so often seem to be intentionally talking past each other. But I do see why you reacted the way you did. To be clear, my intent was to take a situation where the condescension of the question was clear so that you could then see how it could apply elsewhere. So I picked a situation where you'd (hopefully!) have that immediate understanding. I feel "mentally ill" is a problematic term for just the reasons you imply. Illness implies a desire to be well, and it's natural to want to help people who are ill. Assuming someone is unhappy with their situation implies they should be unhappy with it, that something's wrong with it. And if they aren't unhappy, and they're constantly being told they should be (indirectly, through the question), you can see how it could be very frustrating and perhaps even harmful to them. Some people do need help. Those who are obviously incapable of taking care of their basic needs. A million years ago I dated a woman who worked as in home care for a seriously mentally ill woman. The woman being cared for had someone with her, 24 hours a day, basically making sure she didn't hurt herself and was fed and so on. The woman got to live in her own home, and the state paid for the in-home care. Which to be honest, was barely-trained college age women making like $10 an hour. I had mixed feelings about the situation. She probably could have gotten "better" help in some sort of facility. But on the other hand, she was given the dignity of the minimal help necessary for her to get by. Does that make sense? From that perspective, I thought it was a humane thing for society to do.
judk 12y ago
Well if you don't, then you get accused of refusing to mentor women. More seriously, though, how about reaching to everyone who is visibly having trouble. For example, someone who is hell banned yet posts constantly for months, is likely not getting along fine.
Dylan16807 12y ago
I think it's the habitual nature that's the problem there. So you haven't really proposed a scenario where the initial asking is a problem. I won't comment on the rest of the scenario because it's intentionally very different and not an analogy.

sillysaurus3 12y ago

You know, when I started this discussion, I didn't expect if to lead to someone comparing being a woman to being mentally ill, or I wouldn't have said anything. Maybe this is what pg meant that "forums can't be trusted with certain topics."

waterlesscloud 12y ago
You know, when I made my post, I considered you might try to defensively avoid it with precisely this tactic. But then I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt. I see now this was a mistake. You said you couldn't see how "Do you need any help?" could possibly be negative. I tried to offer a scenario that could help you understand. I did so in good faith. I don't really appreciate you turning that into an attack.
- sillysaurus3 12y ago
  In what possible context is that a fair comparison? The former is a health issue. The latter is a social issue. They aren't comparable. No, I wouldn't ask if she needed help. Women aren't helpless. But mentally ill people might be.
  - waterlesscloud 12y ago
    It's not a "comparison", it's a thought experiment intended to get you out of your regular thinking. Not something to be interpreted in the worst way you can imagine. Based on what you've just said, can you see how assuming a mentally ill person is helpless can be a negative to them? As you say, asking if they need help carries the implication they are helpless. If you observe them and they seem to be getting along fine, why assume they're helpless? Why imply that by asking if they need help?
    - sillysaurus3 12y ago
      I apologize for my extreme reaction to your thought experiment. I just have a close relationship with one particular woman who recently started programming, and I was mainly thinking like "how would she feel if she read that?" But since I'm not a woman, I guess I'll leave those sorts of reactions to other people. Plus, I really don't like making people feel bad. And I appreciate that you acted in good faith. I understand how people might be slighted by an offer of assistance. I just thought that by definition, mentally ill people need help. It's in the name. But this whole experience has been pretty eye-opening, so I don't know what to think anymore.
      - waterlesscloud 12y ago
        Thanks. I apologize for coming back hard on it. People online so often seem to be intentionally talking past each other. But I do see why you reacted the way you did. To be clear, my intent was to take a situation where the condescension of the question was clear so that you could then see how it could apply elsewhere. So I picked a situation where you'd (hopefully!) have that immediate understanding. I feel "mentally ill" is a problematic term for just the reasons you imply. Illness implies a desire to be well, and it's natural to want to help people who are ill. Assuming someone is unhappy with their situation implies they should be unhappy with it, that something's wrong with it. And if they aren't unhappy, and they're constantly being told they should be (indirectly, through the question), you can see how it could be very frustrating and perhaps even harmful to them. Some people do need help. Those who are obviously incapable of taking care of their basic needs. A million years ago I dated a woman who worked as in home care for a seriously mentally ill woman. The woman being cared for had someone with her, 24 hours a day, basically making sure she didn't hurt herself and was fed and so on. The woman got to live in her own home, and the state paid for the in-home care. Which to be honest, was barely-trained college age women making like $10 an hour. I had mixed feelings about the situation. She probably could have gotten "better" help in some sort of facility. But on the other hand, she was given the dignity of the minimal help necessary for her to get by. Does that make sense? From that perspective, I thought it was a humane thing for society to do.

judk 12y ago

Well if you don't, then you get accused of refusing to mentor women. More seriously, though, how about reaching to everyone who is visibly having trouble. For example, someone who is hell banned yet posts constantly for months, is likely not getting along fine.

Dylan16807 12y ago

I think it's the habitual nature that's the problem there. So you haven't really proposed a scenario where the initial asking is a problem. I won't comment on the rest of the scenario because it's intentionally very different and not an analogy.