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That's all you have to say. "No, thank you. Please leave me alone." And then you're left alone. We live in a world where we help each other. Offering help

That's all you have to say. "No, thank you. Please leave me alone." And then you're left alone. We live in a world where we help each other. Offering help isn't a bad thing. Some people aren't as strong as you.

kstenerud 12y ago
I wish I could impart upon you the disempowering effect of condescension. When you "offer help" to someone who is happy with where they're at, and not in distress, you're basically telling them that they probably can't make it without you stepping in to support them. You're telling them that they, the wretched ones, are dependent upon the real people, who come down from on high to help them sort their obviously broken lives out. That HURTS. More than you could ever know.
- sillysaurus3 12y ago
  I appreciate the perspective. I'm here to learn and to understand. It's very difficult to understand this, but I can see how it might be true. If that's the case, the only alternative seems to be not to offer help to anyone. Is that preferable, especially if the entire world starts behaving like that? It just seems like "Hey, do you need any help?" can't possibly be a negative. But I'm willing to accept I could be wrong about that.
  - kstenerud 12y ago
    Another alternative is to treat them the same way you treat normal people. i.e. If they are happy where they're at, and their life isn't deteriorating, just assume that they've got a good thing going on and don't need your help. > It just seems like "Hey, do you need any help?" can't possibly be a negative. The first time, it's not a negative. After the 10th, it gets old. After the 20th, you start to wonder if something's wrong with you. Once you're through that and realize there's nothing wrong with your life, every single offer hurts because it's telling you that you're NOT ok. That actually you CAN'T handle yourself without help. It's an insult hidden behind good intentions.
    - dllthomas 12y ago
      I do look for ways I can help normal people. It doesn't have to be condescending, although it certainly makes more sense where there is some sort of personal connection.
  - vinceguidry 12y ago
    Just use your judgment. Terry is a very well-known figure around here. If you really want to help, the first thing to do would be to find someone who's connected to him and ask them about his life and if there's anything that can be done. Now if you really thought they were all alone and had nobody, then you might reach out. See if they need a friend. A lot of people, that's the very best thing you can do for them. This is a rich country. There's plenty of material resources and avenues for getting material resources to take advantage of. But that's what everybody wants to push him, like here, have this job, this will fix you. Tact, friendship, companionship, these things are in shorter supply. You offering him the former without even trying to accommodate his needs regarding the latter, is not being helpful.
  - waterlesscloud 12y ago
    Let's jump this over to a topical thought experiment. A new programmer is hired in your office, who happens to be a woman. She seems to doing ok in her new job, getting things done. She seems fine with it. Her boss seems fine with it. Neither her nor her boss show any signs of dissatisfaction with her work situation. Do you go by every now and then while she's working and ask "Hey, do you need any help?" You don't habitually ask anyone else that question. Do you see how that could be a negative? Do you understand why she might take it as condescending?
    - sillysaurus3 12y ago
      You know, when I started this discussion, I didn't expect if to lead to someone comparing being a woman to being mentally ill, or I wouldn't have said anything. Maybe this is what pg meant that "forums can't be trusted with certain topics."
      - waterlesscloud 12y ago
        You know, when I made my post, I considered you might try to defensively avoid it with precisely this tactic. But then I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt. I see now this was a mistake. You said you couldn't see how "Do you need any help?" could possibly be negative. I tried to offer a scenario that could help you understand. I did so in good faith. I don't really appreciate you turning that into an attack.
        sillysaurus3 12y ago
        In what possible context is that a fair comparison? The former is a health issue. The latter is a social issue. They aren't comparable. No, I wouldn't ask if she needed help. Women aren't helpless. But mentally ill people might be.
        waterlesscloud 12y ago
        It's not a "comparison", it's a thought experiment intended to get you out of your regular thinking. Not something to be interpreted in the worst way you can imagine. Based on what you've just said, can you see how assuming a mentally ill person is helpless can be a negative to them? As you say, asking if they need help carries the implication they are helpless. If you observe them and they seem to be getting along fine, why assume they're helpless? Why imply that by asking if they need help?
  - xenophonf 12y ago
    There's a guy in my neighborhood who has stubs for arms. Maybe he was one of those thalidomide babies. I don't know; I haven't asked. This guy has a wife, a career, grown kids, etc. He is completely normal. The only times he asks for help is when he's going on vacation and wants to know if our kids will watch after his dog. I remember when I first met him, and I was like, woah. This guy has no arms. I kept an eye out when he was out, ready to jump in and help him out if he ever looked like he needed it, but frankly, the guy seems happy enough, capable enough, and independent enough that I sure as hell am not going to stick my nose into his life and tell him that I'm there to help. That would be tremendously rude, in my view. He's a grown man. I respect him. We're friendly. If he needs anything, I'm sure he'll ask. I may be pretty clueless about human relationships a lot of the time, but at least with my neighbor I'm not going to make disrespectful assumptions and talk down to him. Now if he was keeled over in the middle of his yard, clearly in distress, that's different. I certainly hope I'd lend whatever aid I could, but that's true whether or not someone has arms. Sure, there's a lot of nuance, a lot of ambiguous situations where you might think you see a need and try to address it, only to make things worse as kstenerud pointed out, or you could mis-perceive a situation and not address someone's need, only to perpetuate someone's suffering like in abusive situations or something. I don't know. It's a tough call. Still, better to try to make those calls while at the same time acknowledging that you might be doing something (or not doing something) not (just) to make someone else feel better, but to make yourself feel better about yourself. Self-deception's an easy trap to fall into. When it doubt, not only do you have to do the Right Thing, but you have to do it for the Right Reasons. Oh! I thought of another example. The other day when I got off work, I saw some other neighbors raking the leaves in my yard. Now, I know they were doing it to be nice and that they don't have a mean bone in their body, but let me tell you, I felt totally embarrassed, like here were these two completely nice people, raking the leaves in my yard because I clearly can't take care of it myself. I mean, I'm a grown assed man. I'm completely capable. And I felt totally emasculated. And here's another example. I try to help my wife with computer stuff whenever she runs into problems. She's a former software engineer, and it totally pisses her off. She feels like I'm being condescending to her. But I'm not! I'm just trying to help! But I think I end up making her feel less for not being able to do something, and that's not right. If I do something in her life, it should be empowering, in dis-empowering. I guess my point (and perhaps kstenerud's) is that you can "other" someone - alienate, disrespect, and disenfranchise them - in the guise of being helpful. Without really knowing someone or their situation, without having that relationship or trust or whatever, making the right call is super difficult. (I know it's eroge, but you should check out Katawa Shoujo some time. Play it on PG mode if that's what it takes. You might find the game's different story lines insightful in the context of this discussion.)
- Tenhundfeld 12y ago
  This Terry guy collects disability and lives with his parents. He seems to be asking for help constantly by virtue of the fact that he's only surviving due to the generosity of society. Don't project your personal experience onto everyone else. On a side note, I don't know anything about you, but judging solely from the comments in this thread, you are causing yourself so much unnecessary pain. You are the only one who controls what can hurt you, emotionally. If you are "HURT" because people offer to help, that is a tragedy. Apathy hurts. Rejection hurts. Being unable to do simple things others take for granted hurts. A well-intentioned stranger offering to help in a way that underestimates you, that shouldn't HURT.
  - kstenerud 12y ago
    He's carved a life out for himself that works. He has food, shelter, money, and fulfilling work. Why do you assume that he needs people to offer help?
    - jdjb 12y ago
      What's going to happen when his parents pass away?
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - iolsantr 12y ago
    > You are the only one who controls what can hurt you, emotionally. While this may be true of sociopaths, it's not true of anyone else. I hope that someday you'll have a real meaningful relationship with someone else. Until then, hang in there!! edit: snarky? yes, but if you can't sympathize with grandparent, maybe this will help.
    - etherael 12y ago
      I hope I haven't been baited into responding to pure snark literally here, but do you have any citations for the statement that only sociopaths can control who influences them emotionally? Because that sounds completely wrong to me.
- meowface 12y ago
  Not all conditions are equal. Paranoid schizophrenia can be quite debilitating because it affects one of the most critical aspects of human living: the ability to determine what is real and what isn't. I agree with the points you're making, but most people suffering from psychotic conditions tend to prefer being in a lucid, non-psychotic state. It can be like waking someone up from a dream, or more often, a nightmare. Unfortunately, this can often only be done with the use of anti-psychotics, which can sometimes cause horrible side effects; in some cases so horrible they affect someone's life more than the psychosis itself. Regardless, I don't think concern about this man's condition is condescending.
ta75757 12y ago
In that case you have to say "no thank you" every time someone new comes along and they decide they need to be helpful without any indication from you. And that can get irritating really fast. Imagine how sick tall people must be of being asked their height. Now add to that pity and condescension.
- Cogito 12y ago
  As a tall person, I actually rather quite like it! I think that life is more enjoyable when you adhere to some simulacrum of Postel's Law: TCP implementations should follow a general principle of robustness: be conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from others. That is, when I am conservative in how I interact with others, and assume others are trying to be the same with me, it is rare to experience any sort of personal friction with them. I guess this also relates to my belief that I am primarily responsible for if I am happy or not.
jessaustin 12y ago
That's all you have to say. "No, thank you. Please leave me alone." And then you're left alone. Perhaps it's sincere, but this sentiment reminded me of the recently-infamous catcalling video. If one random dude a week compliments a woman on her appearance, she can probably deal with it. At some higher frequency, however, the "compliments" become harassment. That may be how 'kstenerud feels about this.
OvidNaso 12y ago
Actually there is currently a strong push in many places for involuntary hospitalization. We're slipping back to a grim time of incarceration for the mentally ill by family members who disapprove of their lifestyle. While modern facilities are not the horror they once were, make no mistake that they are not places of adequate treatment. This is going to keep people from seeking treatment in the first place knowing that once you get that label, you can be taken by force for no reason, predicated on the idea that the mentally ill have a slightly higher chance of commiting a mass shooting. Pre-crime. It is so stupid and backwards and scary. Not so easy as "Please leave me alone." http://online.wsj.com/articles/los-angeles-county-approves-involuntary-mental-health-care-1405462530 http://online.wsj.com/articles/los-angeles-county-approves-i...
DanBC 12y ago
> No, I don't think we should leave the mentally ill alone. That's not how society works, nor how it should work. [...] > And then you're left alone. Wait what? If you think he poses a risk to himself or others you're free to contact the police[1]. I'm not sure what action you want to be taken when someone is showing symptoms of a mental illness? [1] or whatever the relevant agency is for the person locally.
vinceguidry 12y ago
> And then you're left alone. Until the next guy does the same thing. And the next guy. And the guy after that. This is the Internet. Don't do something like this unless you're sure there's not a problem with 1,000-10,000 other people with the same idea do the exact same thing.

kstenerud 12y ago

I wish I could impart upon you the disempowering effect of condescension. When you "offer help" to someone who is happy with where they're at, and not in distress, you're basically telling them that they probably can't make it without you stepping in to support them. You're telling them that they, the wretched ones, are dependent upon the real people, who come down from on high to help them sort their obviously broken lives out. That HURTS. More than you could ever know.

sillysaurus3 12y ago
I appreciate the perspective. I'm here to learn and to understand. It's very difficult to understand this, but I can see how it might be true. If that's the case, the only alternative seems to be not to offer help to anyone. Is that preferable, especially if the entire world starts behaving like that? It just seems like "Hey, do you need any help?" can't possibly be a negative. But I'm willing to accept I could be wrong about that.
- kstenerud 12y ago
  Another alternative is to treat them the same way you treat normal people. i.e. If they are happy where they're at, and their life isn't deteriorating, just assume that they've got a good thing going on and don't need your help. > It just seems like "Hey, do you need any help?" can't possibly be a negative. The first time, it's not a negative. After the 10th, it gets old. After the 20th, you start to wonder if something's wrong with you. Once you're through that and realize there's nothing wrong with your life, every single offer hurts because it's telling you that you're NOT ok. That actually you CAN'T handle yourself without help. It's an insult hidden behind good intentions.
  - dllthomas 12y ago
    I do look for ways I can help normal people. It doesn't have to be condescending, although it certainly makes more sense where there is some sort of personal connection.
- vinceguidry 12y ago
  Just use your judgment. Terry is a very well-known figure around here. If you really want to help, the first thing to do would be to find someone who's connected to him and ask them about his life and if there's anything that can be done. Now if you really thought they were all alone and had nobody, then you might reach out. See if they need a friend. A lot of people, that's the very best thing you can do for them. This is a rich country. There's plenty of material resources and avenues for getting material resources to take advantage of. But that's what everybody wants to push him, like here, have this job, this will fix you. Tact, friendship, companionship, these things are in shorter supply. You offering him the former without even trying to accommodate his needs regarding the latter, is not being helpful.
- waterlesscloud 12y ago
  Let's jump this over to a topical thought experiment. A new programmer is hired in your office, who happens to be a woman. She seems to doing ok in her new job, getting things done. She seems fine with it. Her boss seems fine with it. Neither her nor her boss show any signs of dissatisfaction with her work situation. Do you go by every now and then while she's working and ask "Hey, do you need any help?" You don't habitually ask anyone else that question. Do you see how that could be a negative? Do you understand why she might take it as condescending?
  - sillysaurus3 12y ago
    You know, when I started this discussion, I didn't expect if to lead to someone comparing being a woman to being mentally ill, or I wouldn't have said anything. Maybe this is what pg meant that "forums can't be trusted with certain topics."
    - waterlesscloud 12y ago
      You know, when I made my post, I considered you might try to defensively avoid it with precisely this tactic. But then I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt. I see now this was a mistake. You said you couldn't see how "Do you need any help?" could possibly be negative. I tried to offer a scenario that could help you understand. I did so in good faith. I don't really appreciate you turning that into an attack.
      - sillysaurus3 12y ago
        In what possible context is that a fair comparison? The former is a health issue. The latter is a social issue. They aren't comparable. No, I wouldn't ask if she needed help. Women aren't helpless. But mentally ill people might be.
        waterlesscloud 12y ago
        It's not a "comparison", it's a thought experiment intended to get you out of your regular thinking. Not something to be interpreted in the worst way you can imagine. Based on what you've just said, can you see how assuming a mentally ill person is helpless can be a negative to them? As you say, asking if they need help carries the implication they are helpless. If you observe them and they seem to be getting along fine, why assume they're helpless? Why imply that by asking if they need help?
- xenophonf 12y ago
  There's a guy in my neighborhood who has stubs for arms. Maybe he was one of those thalidomide babies. I don't know; I haven't asked. This guy has a wife, a career, grown kids, etc. He is completely normal. The only times he asks for help is when he's going on vacation and wants to know if our kids will watch after his dog. I remember when I first met him, and I was like, woah. This guy has no arms. I kept an eye out when he was out, ready to jump in and help him out if he ever looked like he needed it, but frankly, the guy seems happy enough, capable enough, and independent enough that I sure as hell am not going to stick my nose into his life and tell him that I'm there to help. That would be tremendously rude, in my view. He's a grown man. I respect him. We're friendly. If he needs anything, I'm sure he'll ask. I may be pretty clueless about human relationships a lot of the time, but at least with my neighbor I'm not going to make disrespectful assumptions and talk down to him. Now if he was keeled over in the middle of his yard, clearly in distress, that's different. I certainly hope I'd lend whatever aid I could, but that's true whether or not someone has arms. Sure, there's a lot of nuance, a lot of ambiguous situations where you might think you see a need and try to address it, only to make things worse as kstenerud pointed out, or you could mis-perceive a situation and not address someone's need, only to perpetuate someone's suffering like in abusive situations or something. I don't know. It's a tough call. Still, better to try to make those calls while at the same time acknowledging that you might be doing something (or not doing something) not (just) to make someone else feel better, but to make yourself feel better about yourself. Self-deception's an easy trap to fall into. When it doubt, not only do you have to do the Right Thing, but you have to do it for the Right Reasons. Oh! I thought of another example. The other day when I got off work, I saw some other neighbors raking the leaves in my yard. Now, I know they were doing it to be nice and that they don't have a mean bone in their body, but let me tell you, I felt totally embarrassed, like here were these two completely nice people, raking the leaves in my yard because I clearly can't take care of it myself. I mean, I'm a grown assed man. I'm completely capable. And I felt totally emasculated. And here's another example. I try to help my wife with computer stuff whenever she runs into problems. She's a former software engineer, and it totally pisses her off. She feels like I'm being condescending to her. But I'm not! I'm just trying to help! But I think I end up making her feel less for not being able to do something, and that's not right. If I do something in her life, it should be empowering, in dis-empowering. I guess my point (and perhaps kstenerud's) is that you can "other" someone - alienate, disrespect, and disenfranchise them - in the guise of being helpful. Without really knowing someone or their situation, without having that relationship or trust or whatever, making the right call is super difficult. (I know it's eroge, but you should check out Katawa Shoujo some time. Play it on PG mode if that's what it takes. You might find the game's different story lines insightful in the context of this discussion.)
Tenhundfeld 12y ago
This Terry guy collects disability and lives with his parents. He seems to be asking for help constantly by virtue of the fact that he's only surviving due to the generosity of society. Don't project your personal experience onto everyone else. On a side note, I don't know anything about you, but judging solely from the comments in this thread, you are causing yourself so much unnecessary pain. You are the only one who controls what can hurt you, emotionally. If you are "HURT" because people offer to help, that is a tragedy. Apathy hurts. Rejection hurts. Being unable to do simple things others take for granted hurts. A well-intentioned stranger offering to help in a way that underestimates you, that shouldn't HURT.
- kstenerud 12y ago
  He's carved a life out for himself that works. He has food, shelter, money, and fulfilling work. Why do you assume that he needs people to offer help?
  - jdjb 12y ago
    What's going to happen when his parents pass away?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- iolsantr 12y ago
  > You are the only one who controls what can hurt you, emotionally. While this may be true of sociopaths, it's not true of anyone else. I hope that someday you'll have a real meaningful relationship with someone else. Until then, hang in there!! edit: snarky? yes, but if you can't sympathize with grandparent, maybe this will help.
  - etherael 12y ago
    I hope I haven't been baited into responding to pure snark literally here, but do you have any citations for the statement that only sociopaths can control who influences them emotionally? Because that sounds completely wrong to me.
meowface 12y ago
Not all conditions are equal. Paranoid schizophrenia can be quite debilitating because it affects one of the most critical aspects of human living: the ability to determine what is real and what isn't. I agree with the points you're making, but most people suffering from psychotic conditions tend to prefer being in a lucid, non-psychotic state. It can be like waking someone up from a dream, or more often, a nightmare. Unfortunately, this can often only be done with the use of anti-psychotics, which can sometimes cause horrible side effects; in some cases so horrible they affect someone's life more than the psychosis itself. Regardless, I don't think concern about this man's condition is condescending.

ta75757 12y ago

In that case you have to say "no thank you" every time someone new comes along and they decide they need to be helpful without any indication from you. And that can get irritating really fast. Imagine how sick tall people must be of being asked their height. Now add to that pity and condescension.

Cogito 12y ago
As a tall person, I actually rather quite like it! I think that life is more enjoyable when you adhere to some simulacrum of Postel's Law: TCP implementations should follow a general principle of robustness: be conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from others. That is, when I am conservative in how I interact with others, and assume others are trying to be the same with me, it is rare to experience any sort of personal friction with them. I guess this also relates to my belief that I am primarily responsible for if I am happy or not.

jessaustin 12y ago

That's all you have to say. "No, thank you. Please leave me alone." And then you're left alone. Perhaps it's sincere, but this sentiment reminded me of the recently-infamous catcalling video. If one random dude a week compliments a woman on her appearance, she can probably deal with it. At some higher frequency, however, the "compliments" become harassment. That may be how 'kstenerud feels about this.

OvidNaso 12y ago

Actually there is currently a strong push in many places for involuntary hospitalization. We're slipping back to a grim time of incarceration for the mentally ill by family members who disapprove of their lifestyle. While modern facilities are not the horror they once were, make no mistake that they are not places of adequate treatment. This is going to keep people from seeking treatment in the first place knowing that once you get that label, you can be taken by force for no reason, predicated on the idea that the mentally ill have a slightly higher chance of commiting a mass shooting. Pre-crime. It is so stupid and backwards and scary. Not so easy as "Please leave me alone." http://online.wsj.com/articles/los-angeles-county-approves-involuntary-mental-health-care-1405462530 http://online.wsj.com/articles/los-angeles-county-approves-i...

DanBC 12y ago

> No, I don't think we should leave the mentally ill alone. That's not how society works, nor how it should work. [...] > And then you're left alone. Wait what? If you think he poses a risk to himself or others you're free to contact the police[1]. I'm not sure what action you want to be taken when someone is showing symptoms of a mental illness? [1] or whatever the relevant agency is for the person locally.

vinceguidry 12y ago

> And then you're left alone. Until the next guy does the same thing. And the next guy. And the guy after that. This is the Internet. Don't do something like this unless you're sure there's not a problem with 1,000-10,000 other people with the same idea do the exact same thing.