3 ms·

If you will actually read my comment, I said "ask him whether he wants help."

kstenerud 12y ago
Or, you know, just leave him the fuck alone. He's done alright with his life by his own measure and doesn't need the condescension of "hello you poor soul, do you need help?" (which, I'm sure, he's already heard a million times by now)
- sillysaurus3 12y ago
  No, I don't think we should leave the mentally ill alone. That's not how society works, nor how it should work. I think we should respect their wishes, when appropriate, but leaving them alone isn't a good decision.
  - kstenerud 12y ago
    I'm barely able to contain my rage at this moment, so I'll make it short. The ONLY time you're allowed to intervene is when someone's life and self image is visibly deteriorating. If it's stable, leave it the fuck alone. I've gotten into the habit of hiding what I've got because of people like you, and judging by the downvotes I'm getting, you're not alone in perpetuating the stigma and condescension. Every single "oh but you've done so WELL for yourself!" and "if you ever need anything..." is well intentioned, I know, but also incredibly hurtful. We all have our shit in life and each of us deals with it AS WE SEE FIT. Yeah, I do things that may seem weird to you, and sometimes it gets me into trouble, but that's my prerogative. LEAVE. IT. ALONE.
    - sillysaurus3 12y ago
      That's all you have to say. "No, thank you. Please leave me alone." And then you're left alone. We live in a world where we help each other. Offering help isn't a bad thing. Some people aren't as strong as you.
      - kstenerud 12y ago
        I wish I could impart upon you the disempowering effect of condescension. When you "offer help" to someone who is happy with where they're at, and not in distress, you're basically telling them that they probably can't make it without you stepping in to support them. You're telling them that they, the wretched ones, are dependent upon the real people, who come down from on high to help them sort their obviously broken lives out. That HURTS. More than you could ever know.
        sillysaurus3 12y ago
        I appreciate the perspective. I'm here to learn and to understand. It's very difficult to understand this, but I can see how it might be true. If that's the case, the only alternative seems to be not to offer help to anyone. Is that preferable, especially if the entire world starts behaving like that? It just seems like "Hey, do you need any help?" can't possibly be a negative. But I'm willing to accept I could be wrong about that.
        kstenerud 12y ago
        Another alternative is to treat them the same way you treat normal people. i.e. If they are happy where they're at, and their life isn't deteriorating, just assume that they've got a good thing going on and don't need your help. > It just seems like "Hey, do you need any help?" can't possibly be a negative. The first time, it's not a negative. After the 10th, it gets old. After the 20th, you start to wonder if something's wrong with you. Once you're through that and realize there's nothing wrong with your life, every single offer hurts because it's telling you that you're NOT ok. That actually you CAN'T handle yourself without help. It's an insult hidden behind good intentions.
        dllthomas 12y ago
        I do look for ways I can help normal people. It doesn't have to be condescending, although it certainly makes more sense where there is some sort of personal connection.
    - innguest 12y ago
      It really makes it patently obvious, when the subject is a mentally ill person that is doing well for themselves, that the agenda of the collectivist is really about controlling how other people live, and the fact that they are mentally ill, or poor, or gay, or any other special group, is just an excuse to meddle with their lives. This doesn't affect just minorities. Oh, you want to marry someone? Well, then society must decide for you how you should live through laws and paperwork. I wish I knew how to disabuse these people from their collectivist hypnosis but as you can see from your interaction, they don't use reason - "leaving them alone isn't a good decision" is just a feel-good sentence with no substance. Collectivists are touchy-feely and just as hard to disabuse as the religious. You're exactly right in saying that it is through condescension that they perpetuate the stigmas that their well meaning (but myopic) intentions purport to fight against. For instance, they ban the poor from competing by raising the minimum wage, then cut the burgeoning poor a check because they're oppressed. They never see they are doing the oppressing by cutting them the checks. Why? Because intention is king in the kingdom of the collective.
      - sillysaurus3 12y ago
        I wish I knew how to disabuse these people from their collectivist hypnosis but as you can see from your interaction, they don't use reason - "leaving them alone isn't a good decision" is just a feel-good sentence with no substance. Why is it unreasonable to offer help to the mentally ill?
        yebyen 12y ago
        Or anyone, for that matter. "Do you need help" is something you can say to anyone, ill or not. What a horrible place it would be if the only people you can help are anyone who does not seem to be in immediate need of it.
        innguest 12y ago
        Because it overwhelms them (anyone that needs help) with pity and condescension. If they need help they'll either ask or find a way to telegraph it to those around them. If you're one of those people then it's OK to offer help. It is not OK for society at large to offer help that way, because it ends up being counterproductive - we end up collectively helping everyone and we're all that much poorer for it.
  - vitro 12y ago
    Does he hurt himself or others? If yes, interfere, otherwise, don't.
- phkahler 12y ago
  >> Or, you know, just leave him the fuck alone. Do you hold the door for a guy in a wheelchair, or let it close behind you because you fear he's gonna resent any effort to help him?
  - jonah 12y ago
    I generally try to and it is received well. Recently though I offered to help a guy with crutches get into his car he gruffly declined with "I've been doing this long enough." So, ya never know. Probably generally better to offer than not.
- notahacker 12y ago
  I don't think that we're really capable of judging the stability of someone's existence based on their creative output and a biographical sketch written by an apparently sympathetic blogger. That goes for assumptions that intervention by people with a much better understanding of a person's current situation can't improve it as much as the assumption that they could or should.

Or, you know, just leave him the fuck alone. He's done alright with his life by his own measure and doesn't need the condescension of "hello you poor soul, do you need help?" (which, I'm sure, he's already heard a million times by now)

sillysaurus3 12y ago
No, I don't think we should leave the mentally ill alone. That's not how society works, nor how it should work. I think we should respect their wishes, when appropriate, but leaving them alone isn't a good decision.
- kstenerud 12y ago
  I'm barely able to contain my rage at this moment, so I'll make it short. The ONLY time you're allowed to intervene is when someone's life and self image is visibly deteriorating. If it's stable, leave it the fuck alone. I've gotten into the habit of hiding what I've got because of people like you, and judging by the downvotes I'm getting, you're not alone in perpetuating the stigma and condescension. Every single "oh but you've done so WELL for yourself!" and "if you ever need anything..." is well intentioned, I know, but also incredibly hurtful. We all have our shit in life and each of us deals with it AS WE SEE FIT. Yeah, I do things that may seem weird to you, and sometimes it gets me into trouble, but that's my prerogative. LEAVE. IT. ALONE.
  - sillysaurus3 12y ago
    That's all you have to say. "No, thank you. Please leave me alone." And then you're left alone. We live in a world where we help each other. Offering help isn't a bad thing. Some people aren't as strong as you.
    - kstenerud 12y ago
      I wish I could impart upon you the disempowering effect of condescension. When you "offer help" to someone who is happy with where they're at, and not in distress, you're basically telling them that they probably can't make it without you stepping in to support them. You're telling them that they, the wretched ones, are dependent upon the real people, who come down from on high to help them sort their obviously broken lives out. That HURTS. More than you could ever know.
      - sillysaurus3 12y ago
        I appreciate the perspective. I'm here to learn and to understand. It's very difficult to understand this, but I can see how it might be true. If that's the case, the only alternative seems to be not to offer help to anyone. Is that preferable, especially if the entire world starts behaving like that? It just seems like "Hey, do you need any help?" can't possibly be a negative. But I'm willing to accept I could be wrong about that.
        kstenerud 12y ago
        Another alternative is to treat them the same way you treat normal people. i.e. If they are happy where they're at, and their life isn't deteriorating, just assume that they've got a good thing going on and don't need your help. > It just seems like "Hey, do you need any help?" can't possibly be a negative. The first time, it's not a negative. After the 10th, it gets old. After the 20th, you start to wonder if something's wrong with you. Once you're through that and realize there's nothing wrong with your life, every single offer hurts because it's telling you that you're NOT ok. That actually you CAN'T handle yourself without help. It's an insult hidden behind good intentions.
        dllthomas 12y ago
        I do look for ways I can help normal people. It doesn't have to be condescending, although it certainly makes more sense where there is some sort of personal connection.
  - innguest 12y ago
    It really makes it patently obvious, when the subject is a mentally ill person that is doing well for themselves, that the agenda of the collectivist is really about controlling how other people live, and the fact that they are mentally ill, or poor, or gay, or any other special group, is just an excuse to meddle with their lives. This doesn't affect just minorities. Oh, you want to marry someone? Well, then society must decide for you how you should live through laws and paperwork. I wish I knew how to disabuse these people from their collectivist hypnosis but as you can see from your interaction, they don't use reason - "leaving them alone isn't a good decision" is just a feel-good sentence with no substance. Collectivists are touchy-feely and just as hard to disabuse as the religious. You're exactly right in saying that it is through condescension that they perpetuate the stigmas that their well meaning (but myopic) intentions purport to fight against. For instance, they ban the poor from competing by raising the minimum wage, then cut the burgeoning poor a check because they're oppressed. They never see they are doing the oppressing by cutting them the checks. Why? Because intention is king in the kingdom of the collective.
    - sillysaurus3 12y ago
      I wish I knew how to disabuse these people from their collectivist hypnosis but as you can see from your interaction, they don't use reason - "leaving them alone isn't a good decision" is just a feel-good sentence with no substance. Why is it unreasonable to offer help to the mentally ill?
      - yebyen 12y ago
        Or anyone, for that matter. "Do you need help" is something you can say to anyone, ill or not. What a horrible place it would be if the only people you can help are anyone who does not seem to be in immediate need of it.
      - innguest 12y ago
        Because it overwhelms them (anyone that needs help) with pity and condescension. If they need help they'll either ask or find a way to telegraph it to those around them. If you're one of those people then it's OK to offer help. It is not OK for society at large to offer help that way, because it ends up being counterproductive - we end up collectively helping everyone and we're all that much poorer for it.
- vitro 12y ago
  Does he hurt himself or others? If yes, interfere, otherwise, don't.
phkahler 12y ago
>> Or, you know, just leave him the fuck alone. Do you hold the door for a guy in a wheelchair, or let it close behind you because you fear he's gonna resent any effort to help him?
- jonah 12y ago
  I generally try to and it is received well. Recently though I offered to help a guy with crutches get into his car he gruffly declined with "I've been doing this long enough." So, ya never know. Probably generally better to offer than not.
notahacker 12y ago
I don't think that we're really capable of judging the stability of someone's existence based on their creative output and a biographical sketch written by an apparently sympathetic blogger. That goes for assumptions that intervention by people with a much better understanding of a person's current situation can't improve it as much as the assumption that they could or should.