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> respect the decisions the citizens have taken (in this case, regarding taxes) through democratic ways Except the citizens haven't taken that decision: the un

> respect the decisions the citizens have taken (in this case, regarding taxes) through democratic ways Except the citizens haven't taken that decision: the unelected European Commission has. We could probably go down the reductio ad absurdum road of highlighting their appointment by someone who got elected somewhere along the way, but this powerful body is in no way directly accountable to citizens. Some of the British North American colonials had a popular mantra of "no taxation without representation", which might appeal in this situation.

rmc 12y ago
The citizens voted for national parliaments who appointed the EC, and support the EC.
- MistahKoala 12y ago
  Like I said: reductio ad absurdum.
- Silhouette 12y ago
  Or, if you live in the UK: 1. The citizens vote for a local Member of Parliament to be their representative (the winning MP actually being chosen via the statistically dubious First Past The Post system). 2. The party with the largest group of MPs probably forms the government (except when it doesn't, as with our current coalition administration). 3. The leader of the winning party becomes Prime Minister (except when that leader changes after the election, even if there was an explicit promise before the election that this wasn't what people would be voting for, as with Gordon Brown in the previous administration). 4. The senior executive roles within the government and indirect representatives such as European Commissioners are effectively appointed by the PM and their possibly entirely unelected political advisors. The idea that European Commissioners have any meaningful electoral accountability at all is crazy. If you don't think so, try this simple test: When our citizens cast their only relevant vote on this matter at the last election in their constituency, was it even possible for them to know the name of the person who would ultimately become the European Commissioner for our country?
  - rmc 12y ago
    > except when it doesn't, as with our current coalition administration More than 50% of MPs have voted for the current UK Government. Yes, they aren't all in the same party. Many countries have coalition governments, and we have no problem with them. A minority government sounds very undemocratic
    - Silhouette 12y ago
      More than 50% of MPs have voted for the current UK Government. Right. But that means there is already an average of averages problem, even leaving aside the well documented criticisms of how those MPs are themselves elected. And literally everything beyond that is a matter of political dealing, not representative democracy, so the idea that there is any meaningful democratic accountability at all for the European Commission is still silly.
      - rmc 12y ago
        By that logic the UK isn't democratic. Is any country democratic?
        Silhouette 12y ago
        No, the UK isn't really very democratic in a literal sense, and nor is anywhere else. That isn't really the point, though, because as far as I know, no-one here is claiming that pure democracy is somehow the idealised form of government. The point was merely that the European Commission doesn't have much of a democratic mandate to impose these kinds of burdens on everyone. In any case, we're drifting well off the original topic now and I'm not sure this discussion is going anywhere constructive, so I'm going to stop there.
mahouse 12y ago
The EC is unelected? Please, educate yourself.
- MistahKoala 12y ago
  Remind me how citizens voted for it?
lmm 12y ago
The EC is appointed by elected national governments, no different from how the US President is appointed by the elected Electoral College. Governments who have chosen unpopular candidates have suffered for it in their national elections. Accountability may be indirect, but it is there.
- adventured 12y ago
  In fact it is different from how the US President is elected. The electoral college doesn't get to choose any person for President. It's a direct correlation vote: do this, get that result. Such is not true with EC appointments. You vote for a national government, then you pray they appointment an EC that you favor, but there is no legally required direct correlation that says they have to appoint X person. You make that point within your own post (where you note that governments who have chosen unpopular candidates suffer), contradicting your claim that it's just like how the US President is elected.
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    > The electoral college doesn't get to choose any person for President. Yes, in fact, they do. > It's a direct correlation vote: do this, get that result. A lot of people look at it that way, and that's approximately what happens (especially currently), but not because there are any enforced constraints, just because the way electors are chosen gives a very strong likelihood of that effect; historically unpledged electors were a thing [0], and faithless electors remain a thing [1]. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unpledged_elector http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unpledged_elector [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faithless_elector http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faithless_elector
- Silhouette 12y ago
  The EC is appointed by elected national governments, no different from how the US President is appointed by the elected Electoral College. No, it really isn't. When the US people go to the polls to vote for a president, they are voting for the President. There might be some oddities in how the votes are counted, as with any electoral system, but there is no doubt about what position you're voting for or who your vote a certain way will help the most. The number of levels of indirection involved in the election of European Commissioners and the mandates they receive within the Commission is such that there is really no significant accountability to the general public at all. The reality is that the Commission is often full of failed national politicians who have been given a cushy job as a thank-you from political colleagues when they can no longer credibly run for office in their own country. The "we have to do this, it's a European directive that all national governments must implement" technique has become a standard political tool for introducing unpopular legislation that would cause serious political damage if anyone whose job actually depended on being directly elected were to propose it back home.

rmc 12y ago

The citizens voted for national parliaments who appointed the EC, and support the EC.

MistahKoala 12y ago
Like I said: reductio ad absurdum.
Silhouette 12y ago
Or, if you live in the UK: 1. The citizens vote for a local Member of Parliament to be their representative (the winning MP actually being chosen via the statistically dubious First Past The Post system). 2. The party with the largest group of MPs probably forms the government (except when it doesn't, as with our current coalition administration). 3. The leader of the winning party becomes Prime Minister (except when that leader changes after the election, even if there was an explicit promise before the election that this wasn't what people would be voting for, as with Gordon Brown in the previous administration). 4. The senior executive roles within the government and indirect representatives such as European Commissioners are effectively appointed by the PM and their possibly entirely unelected political advisors. The idea that European Commissioners have any meaningful electoral accountability at all is crazy. If you don't think so, try this simple test: When our citizens cast their only relevant vote on this matter at the last election in their constituency, was it even possible for them to know the name of the person who would ultimately become the European Commissioner for our country?
- rmc 12y ago
  > except when it doesn't, as with our current coalition administration More than 50% of MPs have voted for the current UK Government. Yes, they aren't all in the same party. Many countries have coalition governments, and we have no problem with them. A minority government sounds very undemocratic
  - Silhouette 12y ago
    More than 50% of MPs have voted for the current UK Government. Right. But that means there is already an average of averages problem, even leaving aside the well documented criticisms of how those MPs are themselves elected. And literally everything beyond that is a matter of political dealing, not representative democracy, so the idea that there is any meaningful democratic accountability at all for the European Commission is still silly.
    - rmc 12y ago
      By that logic the UK isn't democratic. Is any country democratic?
      - Silhouette 12y ago
        No, the UK isn't really very democratic in a literal sense, and nor is anywhere else. That isn't really the point, though, because as far as I know, no-one here is claiming that pure democracy is somehow the idealised form of government. The point was merely that the European Commission doesn't have much of a democratic mandate to impose these kinds of burdens on everyone. In any case, we're drifting well off the original topic now and I'm not sure this discussion is going anywhere constructive, so I'm going to stop there.

mahouse 12y ago

The EC is unelected? Please, educate yourself.

MistahKoala 12y ago
Remind me how citizens voted for it?

lmm 12y ago

The EC is appointed by elected national governments, no different from how the US President is appointed by the elected Electoral College. Governments who have chosen unpopular candidates have suffered for it in their national elections. Accountability may be indirect, but it is there.

adventured 12y ago
In fact it is different from how the US President is elected. The electoral college doesn't get to choose any person for President. It's a direct correlation vote: do this, get that result. Such is not true with EC appointments. You vote for a national government, then you pray they appointment an EC that you favor, but there is no legally required direct correlation that says they have to appoint X person. You make that point within your own post (where you note that governments who have chosen unpopular candidates suffer), contradicting your claim that it's just like how the US President is elected.
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  > The electoral college doesn't get to choose any person for President. Yes, in fact, they do. > It's a direct correlation vote: do this, get that result. A lot of people look at it that way, and that's approximately what happens (especially currently), but not because there are any enforced constraints, just because the way electors are chosen gives a very strong likelihood of that effect; historically unpledged electors were a thing [0], and faithless electors remain a thing [1]. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unpledged_elector http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unpledged_elector [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faithless_elector http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faithless_elector
Silhouette 12y ago
The EC is appointed by elected national governments, no different from how the US President is appointed by the elected Electoral College. No, it really isn't. When the US people go to the polls to vote for a president, they are voting for the President. There might be some oddities in how the votes are counted, as with any electoral system, but there is no doubt about what position you're voting for or who your vote a certain way will help the most. The number of levels of indirection involved in the election of European Commissioners and the mandates they receive within the Commission is such that there is really no significant accountability to the general public at all. The reality is that the Commission is often full of failed national politicians who have been given a cushy job as a thank-you from political colleagues when they can no longer credibly run for office in their own country. The "we have to do this, it's a European directive that all national governments must implement" technique has become a standard political tool for introducing unpopular legislation that would cause serious political damage if anyone whose job actually depended on being directly elected were to propose it back home.