4 ms·

Given the ridiculous technical and interview "requirements" that have been part of tech for the last several years I'm inclined to have as much sympathy for you

Given the ridiculous technical and interview "requirements" that have been part of tech for the last several years I'm inclined to have as much sympathy for your statement as I do for companies complaining about tech worker shortage. Companies want ridiculous breadth of expertise (the ubiquitous "alphabet soup" listing of technologies), graduate level understanding of often irrelevant and unrelated algorithms and data structures, and a host of other absurdities for things like putting together a damn online shopping cart or, worse, a to-do list.

ef4 12y ago
Most people can't FizzBuzz. That's not ridiculous breadth of expertise. My basic filter question was always this: in any language you know, write a function that reverses a string. No tricks, no gotchas. Any reasonable solution will be discussed briefly and then we'll move on to discuss other things. But a shocking fraction of people -- even ones with CS degrees from fancy schools -- would spend 30 minutes stuck trying to write that function. That's what I think of when I hear "can't code their way out of a wet paper bag".
- nradov 12y ago
  Well what did you expect? CS education is usually mostly theoretical and not about practical code construction. Would you interview a Physics graduate and then complain that she didn't know how to design a bridge? In the early days of computing IBM hired candidates with the right aptitude but zero programming skills and then trained them. It Worked out fine.
  - philwelch 12y ago
    Writing code to reverse a string is more like asking a Physics graduate to calculate how long it takes an object to fall 20 meters once it's dropped. In the year 2014 there's no excuse for having "zero programming skills" if you're looking for a job programming computers. We all have computers, it's not like you can't practice on your own time before expecting someone to pay you for it.
    - nradov 12y ago
      My point was that there is little correlation between practical code construction skills and possessing a CS degree from a fancy school. If that's what you're looking at then you're focusing on the wrong market signal. And we do have existence proofs that businesses can succeed by hiring candidates with the right aptitude but no programming skills and then training them. For example see IBM a few decades ago or Zoho today. If you don't want to do that then you have no right to complain about the market supply of skilled developers.
philwelch 12y ago
Do you think hash tables and linked lists are "irrelevant" and "unrelated"? Have you ever tried to hire developers?
- Iftheshoefits 12y ago
  "Irrelevant and unrelated" to what? They can be, in certain circumstances. I'm not arguing that there are no people trying to get developer jobs who have no business doing it, or that it's always inappropriate to ask algorithms or data structures questions. I'm arguing that there is an overemphasis on trivialities, minutiae, and irrelevant details.
  - philwelch 12y ago
    And that's irrelevant to my point, which is that before you can even get to trivialities and minutiae, the candidate has to be able to code their way out of a wet paper bag, and a surprising number of them can't.
    - Iftheshoefits 12y ago
      That "a surprising number of them can't [code their way out of a paper bag]" does not imply there is a shortage of tech workers, nor does it reveal anything particularly interesting about what you consider a "wet paper bag" to be. What is interesting is that based on your prior comment you believe certain things are universally useful and pertinent in a programming job, which is contentious and unsubstantiated at best. And that was rather my point.
      - philwelch 12y ago
        I think the ability to write code is universally useful and pertinent in a programming job. A shocking number of people fail FizzBuzz. That's what I mean by "wet paper bag".
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]

ef4 12y ago

Most people can't FizzBuzz. That's not ridiculous breadth of expertise. My basic filter question was always this: in any language you know, write a function that reverses a string. No tricks, no gotchas. Any reasonable solution will be discussed briefly and then we'll move on to discuss other things. But a shocking fraction of people -- even ones with CS degrees from fancy schools -- would spend 30 minutes stuck trying to write that function. That's what I think of when I hear "can't code their way out of a wet paper bag".

nradov 12y ago
Well what did you expect? CS education is usually mostly theoretical and not about practical code construction. Would you interview a Physics graduate and then complain that she didn't know how to design a bridge? In the early days of computing IBM hired candidates with the right aptitude but zero programming skills and then trained them. It Worked out fine.
- philwelch 12y ago
  Writing code to reverse a string is more like asking a Physics graduate to calculate how long it takes an object to fall 20 meters once it's dropped. In the year 2014 there's no excuse for having "zero programming skills" if you're looking for a job programming computers. We all have computers, it's not like you can't practice on your own time before expecting someone to pay you for it.
  - nradov 12y ago
    My point was that there is little correlation between practical code construction skills and possessing a CS degree from a fancy school. If that's what you're looking at then you're focusing on the wrong market signal. And we do have existence proofs that businesses can succeed by hiring candidates with the right aptitude but no programming skills and then training them. For example see IBM a few decades ago or Zoho today. If you don't want to do that then you have no right to complain about the market supply of skilled developers.

philwelch 12y ago

Do you think hash tables and linked lists are "irrelevant" and "unrelated"? Have you ever tried to hire developers?

Iftheshoefits 12y ago
"Irrelevant and unrelated" to what? They can be, in certain circumstances. I'm not arguing that there are no people trying to get developer jobs who have no business doing it, or that it's always inappropriate to ask algorithms or data structures questions. I'm arguing that there is an overemphasis on trivialities, minutiae, and irrelevant details.
- philwelch 12y ago
  And that's irrelevant to my point, which is that before you can even get to trivialities and minutiae, the candidate has to be able to code their way out of a wet paper bag, and a surprising number of them can't.
  - Iftheshoefits 12y ago
    That "a surprising number of them can't [code their way out of a paper bag]" does not imply there is a shortage of tech workers, nor does it reveal anything particularly interesting about what you consider a "wet paper bag" to be. What is interesting is that based on your prior comment you believe certain things are universally useful and pertinent in a programming job, which is contentious and unsubstantiated at best. And that was rather my point.
    - philwelch 12y ago
      I think the ability to write code is universally useful and pertinent in a programming job. A shocking number of people fail FizzBuzz. That's what I mean by "wet paper bag".
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]