8 ms·

It's possible that it's not the actual coding experience that matters, but the implicit message of "it's okay for you to do this." I'm male, 33, and I do syste

by scott_s 12y ago

It's possible that it's not the actual coding experience that matters, but the implicit message of "it's okay for you to do this." I'm male, 33, and I do systems software research and development. My family did not get a computer until I was a sophomore in high school. In high school, I played with technology (some webpages, lots of internet time), but I did not understand it. My senior year, I did some very basic programming in a course. But I did not start really programming until college, in a computer science curriculum. I was impressed how much more some students knew than me. But by the junior year, I don't think that edge made a difference. So it's tempting to say that I am an example of the kind of person you and some others on the thread are talking about. But I don't think we can discount the "okayness" effect. While I did not start really programming until college, I liked technology before that, and that was not seen as unusual by anyone. It's possible, then, that encouraging young girls to program early may help resolve the gender gap, but not because they then become young adult women who already know how to be good programmers by the time they arrive on college campuses. Rather, it could be a cultural ripple-effect where if enough young girls program, more people see it as gender-neutral, and when a young adult woman with no prior programming experience wants to take up computer science in college, no one says, "Really?"

skywhopper 12y ago
I think the key is that when you did get to college and started a CS program with little programming experience, no one questioned that you ought to try. Whereas many women in that situation would get more pushback from their peers and advisors.
- scott_s 12y ago
  Yes, that was my point.
- yummyfajitas 12y ago
  If this was a major barrier then we'd expect the numbers to be closer in learning paths where feedback is negligible or where gender is mostly invisible. I.e., we'd see plenty of self taught women but few college educated ones, and more women in open source than in corporate environments. Is that the pattern we see? [edit: based on all the downvotes I'm guessing the data doesn't fit the theory? Oops.]
  - boken 12y ago
    Feedback from peers within your (current or desired) field is not the only feedback of importance in most people's lives. Disbelief and discouragement are at least as likely to come from social acquaintances, friends, neighbors, and family, whose actions are typically more impactful on the young (not to say many of the old). In any case, feedback is not the only deterrent, nor is it the most powerful. A lifetime of insinuations and flat-out statements from the vocal majority of your peers and teachers that x is not your domain--before you've even had a chance to think that it might be--does much to shape a person. But probably some of your downvotes are coming because you're discounting how much louder and more open sexism tends to be online than in the office.
    - yummyfajitas 12y ago
      If you have a fixed amount of negative feedback from friends and family and a lower level of negative feedback from codeacademy than from a teacher, negative feedback is lower for autodidacts. If negative feedback reduces involvement, then (male autodidacts)/(male programmers) should be lower than (female autodidacts)/(female programmers). Does this theory need the additional hypothesis that real life negative feedback is higher for women privately doing things with their computers? What experiment/measurement (if any) could invalidate this theory? But probably some of your downvotes are coming because you're discounting how much louder and more open sexism tends to be online than in the office. This seems implausible. In most technical circles (see, e.g., HN) there is reflexive political correctness and mobbing against anyone who dares question the party line. Witness the comments on this article as a perfect example. We literally have the president of ycombinator making a personal attack against someone who dares to ask why a set of anecdotes is interesting. (Note that I've never seen sama or anyone else attack someone for "why would I use your lib over sqlite?")
      - philh 12y ago
        > We literally have the president of ycombinator making a personal attack against someone who dares to ask why a set of anecdotes is interesting. Describing https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8653669 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8653669 as a personal attack seems... excessive. (Looks like he edited it though, were you talking about the original version?)
Splartacus 12y ago
Feminists and other social justice warriors, drunk on hubris, continue to fly towards the sun. But as we are seeing with GamerGate, the closer they get, the faster their wings melt. In due time, their ideology will sink into the sea.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
pbhjpbhj 12y ago
>when a young adult woman with no prior programming experience wants to take up computer science in college, no one says, "Really?" Don't you think that a young adult deciding to take further study in a subject they have no experience in - which suggests they have no real desire towards - should at least be asked by educators/parents "Are you sure that's what you want? Really?". If I'd never baked a thing in my life and said "I want to go to catering college" I'd pretty much expect teachers to say "Really?"; why is this different? I'm not at all suggesting you need experience in a domain to begin studying it at a higher education institute - but I'd want someone to double check that I'd at least considered [considering] the possible consequences of that route of study. I wouldn't want to stop someone following an impulse, just that I'd want to try and get them to do it with at least some thought.
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  > Don't you think that a young adult deciding to take further study in a subject they have no experience in - which suggests they have no real desire towards Er, since when does lack of past experience indicate no present desire? Or even no past desire?
  - smokeyj 12y ago
    I think there should be evidence of passion, which typically manifests in a proactive approach to education and experience. Edit. As I think of this more, I feel like we're having two different discussions in parallel. The first, how do we get more women in technology. The second, how do we get people involved in their passion. These are two distinct conversations, and the first shoe-horns a subset of the population into a career track for the sake of a misguided notion of gender equality.
    - scott_s 12y ago
      No one is advocating for shoe-horning anyone into something they don't want to do. We are advocating for people who may have curiosity to pursue something, but do not for a variety of external, cultural pressures. We are talking about the best ways to remove those pressures - not pressure them into it.
Splartacus 12y ago
So, listen up, feminists and social justice warriors. I want you to make a mental note of this. I have my finger on the cultural pulse like very few nerds do. The counter movement against the ideologies you embrace is not going to be a mere swing of the pendulum, as I hoped a few years ago. It is not going to be a "backlash". No. What is coming is a HURRICANE, which will devastate the world view you were taught in school, which you drank in with your television, which you smugly luxuriated in with your online friends on Reddit. Within ten years, the assumptions regarding sex, race, and "diversity" that you assumed would conquer the world will be GONE. Devastated. History. Remember, this is the day you were told.
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  > So, listen up, feminists [...] > The counter movement against the ideologies you embrace is not going to be a mere swing of the pendulum, as I hoped a few years ago. It is not going to be a "backlash". Notable feminists have been arguing that the counter movement to feminism is (not will at some unspecified time in the future be) a "backlash" for quite some time. [1] [1] Most obvious example: http://susanfaludi.com/backlash.html http://susanfaludi.com/backlash.html (original edition was published in 1991)
  - Splartacus 12y ago
    Ah, your Royal Highness tptacek. The main reason I stopped commenting here several years ago! Words cannot express my contempt for you.
    - dragonwriter 12y ago
      > Ah, your Royal Highness tptacek. No, I'm not tptacek. As the different username may have hinted.
      - tptacek 12y ago
        Prove it, other me.

by scott_s 12y ago

skywhopper 12y ago

I think the key is that when you did get to college and started a CS program with little programming experience, no one questioned that you ought to try. Whereas many women in that situation would get more pushback from their peers and advisors.

scott_s 12y ago
Yes, that was my point.
yummyfajitas 12y ago
If this was a major barrier then we'd expect the numbers to be closer in learning paths where feedback is negligible or where gender is mostly invisible. I.e., we'd see plenty of self taught women but few college educated ones, and more women in open source than in corporate environments. Is that the pattern we see? [edit: based on all the downvotes I'm guessing the data doesn't fit the theory? Oops.]
- boken 12y ago
  Feedback from peers within your (current or desired) field is not the only feedback of importance in most people's lives. Disbelief and discouragement are at least as likely to come from social acquaintances, friends, neighbors, and family, whose actions are typically more impactful on the young (not to say many of the old). In any case, feedback is not the only deterrent, nor is it the most powerful. A lifetime of insinuations and flat-out statements from the vocal majority of your peers and teachers that x is not your domain--before you've even had a chance to think that it might be--does much to shape a person. But probably some of your downvotes are coming because you're discounting how much louder and more open sexism tends to be online than in the office.
  - yummyfajitas 12y ago
    If you have a fixed amount of negative feedback from friends and family and a lower level of negative feedback from codeacademy than from a teacher, negative feedback is lower for autodidacts. If negative feedback reduces involvement, then (male autodidacts)/(male programmers) should be lower than (female autodidacts)/(female programmers). Does this theory need the additional hypothesis that real life negative feedback is higher for women privately doing things with their computers? What experiment/measurement (if any) could invalidate this theory? But probably some of your downvotes are coming because you're discounting how much louder and more open sexism tends to be online than in the office. This seems implausible. In most technical circles (see, e.g., HN) there is reflexive political correctness and mobbing against anyone who dares question the party line. Witness the comments on this article as a perfect example. We literally have the president of ycombinator making a personal attack against someone who dares to ask why a set of anecdotes is interesting. (Note that I've never seen sama or anyone else attack someone for "why would I use your lib over sqlite?")
    - philh 12y ago
      > We literally have the president of ycombinator making a personal attack against someone who dares to ask why a set of anecdotes is interesting. Describing https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8653669 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8653669 as a personal attack seems... excessive. (Looks like he edited it though, were you talking about the original version?)

Splartacus 12y ago

Feminists and other social justice warriors, drunk on hubris, continue to fly towards the sun. But as we are seeing with GamerGate, the closer they get, the faster their wings melt. In due time, their ideology will sink into the sea.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

pbhjpbhj 12y ago

>when a young adult woman with no prior programming experience wants to take up computer science in college, no one says, "Really?" Don't you think that a young adult deciding to take further study in a subject they have no experience in - which suggests they have no real desire towards - should at least be asked by educators/parents "Are you sure that's what you want? Really?". If I'd never baked a thing in my life and said "I want to go to catering college" I'd pretty much expect teachers to say "Really?"; why is this different? I'm not at all suggesting you need experience in a domain to begin studying it at a higher education institute - but I'd want someone to double check that I'd at least considered [considering] the possible consequences of that route of study. I wouldn't want to stop someone following an impulse, just that I'd want to try and get them to do it with at least some thought.

dragonwriter 12y ago
> Don't you think that a young adult deciding to take further study in a subject they have no experience in - which suggests they have no real desire towards Er, since when does lack of past experience indicate no present desire? Or even no past desire?
- smokeyj 12y ago
  I think there should be evidence of passion, which typically manifests in a proactive approach to education and experience. Edit. As I think of this more, I feel like we're having two different discussions in parallel. The first, how do we get more women in technology. The second, how do we get people involved in their passion. These are two distinct conversations, and the first shoe-horns a subset of the population into a career track for the sake of a misguided notion of gender equality.
  - scott_s 12y ago
    No one is advocating for shoe-horning anyone into something they don't want to do. We are advocating for people who may have curiosity to pursue something, but do not for a variety of external, cultural pressures. We are talking about the best ways to remove those pressures - not pressure them into it.

Splartacus 12y ago

So, listen up, feminists and social justice warriors. I want you to make a mental note of this. I have my finger on the cultural pulse like very few nerds do. The counter movement against the ideologies you embrace is not going to be a mere swing of the pendulum, as I hoped a few years ago. It is not going to be a "backlash". No. What is coming is a HURRICANE, which will devastate the world view you were taught in school, which you drank in with your television, which you smugly luxuriated in with your online friends on Reddit. Within ten years, the assumptions regarding sex, race, and "diversity" that you assumed would conquer the world will be GONE. Devastated. History. Remember, this is the day you were told.

dragonwriter 12y ago
> So, listen up, feminists [...] > The counter movement against the ideologies you embrace is not going to be a mere swing of the pendulum, as I hoped a few years ago. It is not going to be a "backlash". Notable feminists have been arguing that the counter movement to feminism is (not will at some unspecified time in the future be) a "backlash" for quite some time. [1] [1] Most obvious example: http://susanfaludi.com/backlash.html http://susanfaludi.com/backlash.html (original edition was published in 1991)
- Splartacus 12y ago
  Ah, your Royal Highness tptacek. The main reason I stopped commenting here several years ago! Words cannot express my contempt for you.
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    > Ah, your Royal Highness tptacek. No, I'm not tptacek. As the different username may have hinted.
    - tptacek 12y ago
      Prove it, other me.